to disagree with schools test results

Of course you can disagree; you need to know that IQ tests of young children are not cast in stone, and do change over time. The “average range” of IQ is 90-110; a score of 86 is at the 18 th percentile rank…is this consistent with achievement test results? It would not be surprising when your child is retested at 9-10yrs of age to see the scores change; try looking at this site in LD in Depth , click on assessment and read Pete Wright’s review article on understanding testing and standard scores.

You need to consider the subtest scores. How was comprehension? I have had students who seemed to be really average actually test in the 80’s. Usually they have a 10 on comprehension and this is the source of my impression. The child is socially aware and on the ball. This is a strength. However, if other areas are lower, then you may have lower ability to perform certain kinds of thinking.

If there were just a couple of subtests that were really, really low, then this needs to be reconsidered. You have not posted enough detail to do more than get me speculating on what kinds of things I have encountered.

Here are the scores the school gave us:
They did three ability tests

WISC-III
Information: 7
Similarities: 11
Arithmetic: 3
Vocabulary: 10
Comprehension: 9
Digit span: 4

Picture completion: 10
Coding: 10
Picture arrangement: 8
Block design: 5
Object assembly: 5
Symbol search: 11

VIQ: 89
PIQ: 84
FIQ: 86

Verbal Comp: 96
Percept. Org: 83
Freedom: 64
Processing: 104

COMPREHENSIVE TEST OF NONVERBAL INTELLIGENCE
Nonverbal intelligence quotient: 84
Pictorial nonverbal intelligence quotient: 83
Geometric nonverbal intelligence quotient: 87

DETROIT TESTS OF LEARNING ABILITY
Word opposites: 10
Design reproduction: 7
Basic information: 8
Word sequences: 4
Story sequences: 11
GENERAL MENTAL ABILITY: 86

They then did two for achievement:

WIAT
Basic reading: 94
Reading comp: 92
Reading total: 92
Math reasoning: 96

WOODCOCK-JOHNSON III
Letter-word ID: 101
Passage comp: 94
Word attack: 86
Broad reading skills: 88
Basic reading skills: 94
Math fluency: 86
Calculation: 92
Applied problems: 91
Broad math: 91
Math calculation skills: 91
Story recall: 94
Understanding directions: 103

Then the miscellaneous:

DEVELOPMENTAL TEST OF VISUAL MOTOR INTEGRATION (VMI-3R)
Stand. score: 84

TEST OF VISUAL PERCEPTUAL SKILLS (NON-MOTOR)
Visual discrimination: 10
Visual memory: 10
Visual spatial relationships: 11
Visual form constancy: 4
Visual sequential memory: 4
Visual figure ground: 9
Visual closure: 7
PERCEPTUAL QUOTIENT: 84

BEHAVIOR DISORDER IDENTIFICATION SCALE
Learning: 7
Interpersonal relations: 11
Inappropriate behavior: 11
Unhappiness/depression: 7
Physical symptoms/fears: 8

I am still trying to make sense of all of this. His eligibility meeting is Jan. 8, but the school psychologist has already told me that he doesn’t qualify for sped. He is miserable at school, and despite his math scores here, he cannot do simple addition and subtration facts. He is in second grade.

We were all sure (the school team, too) that he was following in his brother’s footsteps with LD, but the scores just do not support that. What the heck is going on with him? I can’t help him if I don’t know what’s wrong. Any advice or suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Is it not simply possible that the child’s ld issues impact his ability to test and score according to the standards?

We found a substantial discrepancy between the school testing and independent testing from a neuropsychologist who was completely uninvolved with public education systems.

Just a thought.

Andy

Andy, I think this is what I am wondering. If you have LDs in specific areas, its going to affect your ability to perform to standards.

We have been down a similar path with the school testing and the neuropsych and I have to agreed; though I hesitate because we got a shocking overall diagnosis that a second opinion does not confirm. So we have been advised to only accept and submit the educational scores.

My older boy has been through all of this. We felt that the school was just holding status quo and standing by their mediocre findings. My son was drowning and it was taking a toll on him emotionally. Turns out the neuropsych’s testing found very significant learning issues that the school had not addressed. When reading the neuropsych’s report, the school just balked and said that a school cannot do all of that “fancy testing” that a neuropsych can. (((WHAT???)))

It’s funny though, despite all of their disagreeing, we are getting the services he needs now since the neuropsych eval. Services he was not entitled to with the school’s testing. And, the school reimbursed us for the private eval.

Now, the big question is, do I put my younger one through the hell I put the older one through (test after test) or do we just ride this out? I know he is not a step above mental retardation. I know he needs help though, because his self-esteem is already suffering and I refuse to let his emotional well-being slip as far as we let the older one’s. Those were our darkest days so far.

Here are the scores the school gave us:
They did three ability tests

WISC-III
Information: 7
Similarities: 11
Arithmetic: 3
Vocabulary: 10
Comprehension: 9
Digit span: 4

Picture completion: 10
Coding: 10
Picture arrangement: 8
Block design: 5
Object assembly: 5
Symbol search: 11

VIQ: 89
PIQ: 84
FIQ: 86

Verbal Comp: 96
Percept. Org: 83
Freedom: 64
Processing: 104

COMPREHENSIVE TEST OF NONVERBAL INTELLIGENCE
Nonverbal intelligence quotient: 84
Pictorial nonverbal intelligence quotient: 83
Geometric nonverbal intelligence quotient: 87

DETROIT TESTS OF LEARNING ABILITY
Word opposites: 10
Design reproduction: 7
Basic information: 8
Word sequences: 4
Story sequences: 11
GENERAL MENTAL ABILITY: 86

They then did two for achievement:

WIAT
Basic reading: 94
Reading comp: 92
Reading total: 92
Math reasoning: 96

WOODCOCK-JOHNSON III
Letter-word ID: 101
Passage comp: 94
Word attack: 86
Broad reading skills: 88
Basic reading skills: 94
Math fluency: 86
Calculation: 92
Applied problems: 91
Broad math: 91
Math calculation skills: 91
Story recall: 94
Understanding directions: 103

Then the miscellaneous:

DEVELOPMENTAL TEST OF VISUAL MOTOR INTEGRATION (VMI-3R)
Stand. score: 84

TEST OF VISUAL PERCEPTUAL SKILLS (NON-MOTOR)
Visual discrimination: 10
Visual memory: 10
Visual spatial relationships: 11
Visual form constancy: 4
Visual sequential memory: 4
Visual figure ground: 9
Visual closure: 7
PERCEPTUAL QUOTIENT: 84

BEHAVIOR DISORDER IDENTIFICATION SCALE
Learning: 7
Interpersonal relations: 11
Inappropriate behavior: 11
Unhappiness/depression: 7
Physical symptoms/fears: 8

I am still trying to make sense of all of this. His eligibility meeting is Jan. 8, but the school psychologist has already told me that he doesn’t qualify for sped. He is miserable at school, and despite his math scores here, he cannot do simple addition and subtration facts. He is in second grade.

We were all sure (the school team, too) that he was following in his brother’s footsteps with LD, but the scores just do not support that. What the heck is going on with him? I can’t help him if I don’t know what’s wrong. Any advice or suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Is this a child who acieves far above this low-average IQ score? Are the verbal and performance scores similar? Why not ask your outside pysch. to just review the WISC III protocol and results from this testing to avoid putting the child through a big battery again.

Lulu,

I think you can look at it this way. On some of those WISC subtests, he did score close to average (subtests with 9, 10, 11): similarities, vocabulary, and comprehension. That is why he seems average to you as those are skills which he uses in communication. He had a very low score (3) on arithmetic which assesses attention and concentration and numerical reasoning. He also had low scores (5) in block design and object assembly, which have to do with visual and spatial skills. The low digit span score (4) has to do with short term auditory memory and concentration.

So, I would have to first ask, is attention and concentration an issue? Is he perhaps ADD-inattentive?

I am thinking that something like Audiblox might be good for working on some of his low skills from descriptions I have read, but not from personal use. If you could work on the low areas, you might be able to bring up his scores.

I will have to give the school some credit, they did give three tests which all confirm a overall score of close to the 86 WISC score. His achievement is slightly above the ability scores. So I can’t see any way he could qualify for any special ed. based on these scores. There are some who will be able to better interpret these scores than me, but I thought I’d just make a few comments since I read your post. I doubt it would do much good to dispute these scores unless there is some circumstance like him being ADD without medication at the time of testing.

I really feel for the children that fall in the gap between average and special ed. Public school is not the greatest place for these kids. If you could consider homeschooling, it might really relieve a lot of problems so that he could learn at his own pace.

You said he is having difficulty with math. What curriculum are they using? I was just reading math curriculum reviews is why I ask. Also, what grade is he in, first or second?

Janis

Hi Lulu,

Your school has done all the major tests one can do to try to verify the accuracy of the WISC score. At age 7, the WISC is at its least reliable point (still the best, though) and so you have about +/- 7 or so points (without looking it up in my Sattler book). In other words, you should be about are 90% confident that his IQ falls somewhere between 92/93 and 79/80. The other tests scores (in visual/perceptual areas) seem to make this score hold up in comparison.

What is really more telling are the factor scores (Verbal Comprehension, Freedom from Distractibility, Perceptual Organization, and Processing Speed). His overall information and verbal reasoning are solidly average (SS 96). Processing speed is okay, too. These make him function in many ways like any other kiddo. However, even when one uses his VC factor score of 96 and PS of 104, he doesn’t qualify for LD. Achievement has to be lower to qualify. (Many call this the wait & fail model with good reason.)

His working memory for numbers is very impaired at SS 64. He didn’t fare better when working memory was with words. There is something going on here with short-term and/or working memory.

Further, there is something going on with visual processing, too. When one compares the Obj Assembly and BD on the WISC to the Perceptual Quotient on the TVPS, it is easy to see why math may be a struggle.

I have been known to put kids in Other Health Impaired cateogry when it is as obvious as this that there is definitely a processing difference. Do you have an Asperger’s diagnosis or other medical condition that might get him qualified easier in this way?

The only testing idea I have is the Key Math-Revised. I’ve gotten kids qualified in math using this. It is much more stringent math test. But, lots of kids have kept up well enough in grade 1 and just haven’t gotten behind enough. (You know he’s going to and are looking for prevention. The discrepancy model doesn’t allow for prevention, unless the individual teacher or school district wishes to give extra help.)

Not sure it would work right now (need to look and see what are the test ages), but you could soon try the Test of Written Language to see if you could get him qualified in written language LD.

It is not unusual to see kids fail to qualify at age 7. It is one of the key problems with the discrepancy formula model for diagnosing LD. Some states have gone to curriculum-based assessment for just this reason. I have problems with that, too, though. (For another discussion)

If your school is doing an inclusion model, your son could still receive services through what the law calls “incidental benefit.” If the sped teacher is in the classroom and your son receives instruction along with other students, ‘tis a good thing. That can help a lot in math. This is one of the *good things* about inclusion. It helps kids that don’t meet the discrepancy formula.

In my world, I serve them. I don’t write IEP’s for them, but they get taught along with everyone else. If parents are okay with pull-out, I pull them with the sped kids for small group. I don’t care what the label—especially at age 7!

The law doesn’t tell me I have to do this—or continue to do it. Maybe your special education teacher might feel the same way. Take food to the meeting. :-)

Hi Janis,

Thanks for responding. I always appreciate your input. You have been so helpful to me in the past.

He is 7 and in 2nd grade. We did all of the ADD-inattentive surveys and like his brother, does not fit a diagnosis. It is very strange.

Our school uses Everyday Math (or University of Chicago Math). I have been very impressed with the series since the beginning. It can’t really get any more basic from the start. We have tried Touch Math on our own which left him in tears.

I agree, the school did not skimp on the testing. The school psychologist has always been wonderful (its the SPED administrator that has always been my headache). She told me that she knows that he is really struggling and suffering emotionally because of it; that’s why she did three different ability measures trying to hit the “magic numbers” for eligibility.

And I know its not her fault. I was just wondering if school testing is different from private; maybe swayed toward not finding the subtle that could make a world of difference to those children you mention; those who fall in the gap.

I understand your point about homeschooling but both of my boys are sooooooo social (this is so important to them) and this is what keeps them wanting to go to school despite their obstacles. I would hate to take this away from them.

As far as working on the deficits to bring up the scores, they say it is possible (pending a report) that he may qualify for language services through the speech and language pathologist. This was a forced issue though. They weren’t even going to do an evaluation in speech and language until I insisted. My older boy never had a speech/language eval through the school. We recently had it done privately and it turns out he has a severe receptive language delay. So, we insisted that the younger one be evaluated. The school psychologist says that if the younger one qualifies for this, intervention with this “related service” may bring up his scores. I’m really not sure how this applies to his major stumbling block of mathematics though.

I am very interested in Audiblox and would consider giving it a try. There is also another one very similar but the name escapes me (not Interactive Metronome; I just can’t think of what its called) UGGGGH!!!!!!

Thanks again for the input. Much appreciated and hope all is well with you.

Thank you Susan, you always have very valuable information. I see what you are saying and combined with Janis’ input, it makes sense to me.

AND, MOST UNBELIEVABLE … I see a positive side of inclusion. Who ever thought someone might be able to change my mind; but you did it. Yes, we most definitely follow the inclusion model. Is there something that I have to do to make sure he is noticed by the sped teacher. I know we also have pull out at our K-2 building (where he is at) and I’m not sure exactly how much time the sped teacher actually spends in the gen ed classroom. How do I pursue this tactfully?

I am just so worried about his self-esteem. He already says he’s the dumbest in his class; so he knows what’s going on. I will ask about the specific math test. Its worth a shot, right? Reading, he is already in our Title I for reading and I’m almost sure that this will continue since he does not qualify for sped. However, we use Reading Recovery (sigh ……..).

Good reminder too … bring food (always a bonus!!!)

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Very interesting SAR!

What would this mean; the child who achieves above his IQ? What would this indicate?

And how do I go about getting the WISC protocol for our private psych to look at?

Good insight!!!

My non-LD son scored well above his IQ in achievement in 2nd grade, when tested. Don’t ask me, how this happens or why. Maybe motivation. Unfortunately, we lost that sometime after 3rd grade and now that he’s in middle school he is so unmotivated it makes my blood boil! He has a severely LD sister who works her tail off and he just makes A’s on tests, turns in no homework and brings home C’s. Drives me nuts. I am hoping that with high school a car will be the carrot for good grades.

How very interesting. I would not think it is possible to achieve higher than you are considered capable. Do you still believe that you son might have some learning difference or are you confident that he doesn’t? I’m concerned about how much to push the issue; or do I just settle on these test scores?

It exhausts me to even think about this extending into high school at this point. God bless you and hope all goes well for you with the motivation!!!!

We had our private psychologist very sweetly request the WISC and other protocols from the school evaluators and the school was very happy to help a “fellow” professional(I’m sure they wouldn’t have given them to me). It was very helpful to have someone else review the testing outside of the school. If your son doesn’t qualify for special ed., try outside tutoring…it was a lifesaver for my son.

Yes, the test is worth a shot. Also ask about OHI, especially if you have an ADHD/ADD diagnosis.

Now, about inclusion:

If all else fails (OHI category, Key Math…), you could just say, “Is there any way he could join in a small group instructional session if you are teaching it anyway?”

The idea of inclusion, especially at the younger ages, is to provide some measure of assistance to all struggling students, regardless of the label. Like everything else, it gets messed up when carried to extremes.

What else can you do? Kind words…volunteer to help out with some job in the regular classroom while your child is out of the class…donate some things on the wish-list.

I will tell you that this is a time when the honey-talkers definitely win the day.

You will take this one step at a time and your son is going to be fine. You have to keep this in your mind. Believe it for it is true.

Each test/cluster of subtests has a range of scores—like I mentioned above (with the 90% confident thing). Some subtests/cluster of subtests might play to certain strengths and others to weaknesses. Thus, someone could achieve much higher than full scale IQ score, but not higher than factor scores in areas of strength—especially considering that it is truly a range of numbers.

It is in error to look at these scores as one number. They are all ranges, statistically speaking.

Lulu,

You’re very welcome. :-) I think it was excellent that you pushed for the langauge testing! Every child with learning problems ought to have language testing automatically in my opinion.

I think you may be thinking of PACE. But there is a home version called BrainSkills. That might be helpful, too, but I think Audiblox is a good bit cheaper.

Regarding homeschooling, I really meant to go in that direction if self-esteem begins to suffer. You can always do sports and scouts for the socializing. I held my child back in first grade this year as I did not want her to lag behind her class forever (she was also the youngest in the class). Sometimes the extra year early on does them a lot of good. It especially is good if they receive therapies that help them during that time. You may have to do it yourself, but that’s probably better anyway.

I have sort of bad news, but besides Reading Recovery being very bad, Everyday Math is very bad, too. I will give you links to some articles about it. Honestly, that school is going to have a lot of problems using those two programs. And so will your little boy, unfortunately. You seriously might end up having to homeschool unless you do a lot of supplementing at home at night.

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/bishop4.htm

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/everyday.htm

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/ucsmpf.htm

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/acolor.htm

Janis

Little Lulu my daughter was tested for gifted and did not qulify. She only scored a 102 on the Otis Lennon school ability tests—yet she always scores at the 75th-95th percentile on achievement tests given at the school. She exceeded standards on the reading portion of the ISAT and scored high just missing exceeding standards on the math portion. Despite both my boys difficulties they also have areas where they score above expected for IQ. I think it is a strange thing but they do it routinely. My daughter finds school very boring and unchallenging. It is very strange.

Looks suspiciously like there may be LDs to me. How is attention and distractibility?

He might qualify for OT…he’s scoring very low on visual-motor construction tasks and below average on visual-motor integration and visual-perceptual skills. Such nonverbal weaknesses are often related to math difficulties (hence the NVLD diagnosis). I’d also consider sensory processing as a possible factor to look into. And as suggested above- something is definitely going on with working memory. I’d request that the speech and language testing include an assessment of auditory processing to look more closely at auditory memory, discrimination, reasoning, etc.

The evaluator THOUGHT he had an LD b/c of the discrepancy, but when she got it all laid out, she said it was on the other end. He was scoring higher than his IQ. (High Average IQ, 5.6 grade writing level in 2nd grade)!

Thanks for the HS well wishes. I try not to get my hopes up :-)!

VIQ - 112, PIQ - 117, Full scale IQ - 116
Verbal subtests scored between 10-14
Performance subtests scored between 10-16

Letter word ID 73%
Passage Comprehension 73
Broad Reading 73
Calculation 91
Applied problems 70
Broad math 84
Dictation 58 (! - I know! )
writing samples 95 (5.6 grade level - that’s what I was mostly talking about, though, after Susan reads these it may show that I DON”T know what I’m talking about :-).
Broad written language 87

He did have an auditory processing score of SS 83 (k-5), 12%
while other processing was
short term - SS 113
processing speed 113
visual processing 117

Said he was not eligible for spec ed and had no LD. Said based on “intellectual functioning he should be a strong A/B student”(I wish).

She did mention: “The processing delay noted in auditory procesing may be one cause of his sudden outbursts both at school and home. Also said because “during this evaluation he completely spaced out and had to have a break time to regain his normal academic progress, it is recommended that Andrew have a complete physical to rule out any significant neurological delays”

We took him to a neurologist (I think) who did a sleep deprived EEG (?) b/c the examiner thought he was having petit mal seizures (???? spelling). Nothing came up on the test.

BTW, I DID NOT turn this into the school b/c it also said he fell in the “clincal range (66) for anxious/depressed and I did not want that to follow him. (The teacher told me she thought he was ADD, which was the reason for the testing) He, at 7, once told me he “wished he lived under the ground” and thought he was “stupid” in 1st grade. “living under the ground” to a 7 yo, according to our psychologist is equivalent to “wishing I were dead”. ) More reasons for the eval)

We did take him to a psychologist for about a year, but things seemed to improve. The evaluator suggested going. One of the othe behaviors was “need to annoy others” in class that teacher commented on. Unfortunately he hasn’t lost that either. Overall, now he is a somewhat sensitive, average, good looking kid that his mom adores!

Leah,

It makes a monumental difference if those Woodcock Johnson achievement test scores are percentile or standard scores. I am assuming they are percentile because you put a % mark by the first score. We really need to see the standard scores to compare them to the IQ scores. If the dictation is 58 %ile, then that’s above average…50%ile is average. With a standard score, 100 is average and a 58 would be a low score.

Did you ever take hom to an audiologist to test for APD?

Janis

The writing samples just tells how creative he is with expressing himself…and that he can get something down on paper. It says nothing about writing conventions like punctuation, capitalization, word usage. That’s a different scoring that it doesn’t appear they performed.

Like Janis, I’m assuming that these are percentiles and…awaiting standard scores. Always compare like scores to like scores—and standard scores are best because they are evenly spread across the whole continuum from >0 to <155 (or whatever is the range). Percentiles are not evenly spread with SS numbers.

Janet & Susan -

Never realized you had answered this post on my son until I was “searching” for something else:

I have the SS scores, too.

Gosh, am I going to feel GUILTY if I missed the boat on him, though the evaluator said NO PROBLEM:

verbal IQ 112
Perf. 117
FS IQ 116

Info. 10
Similarities 12
Arithmatic 12
Vocab 12
Comprehension 14
Digit Span 13

Picture Completion 12
Coding: 16
Picture Arrangement 10
Block Design 13
Object Assemby 12

Verba; Comp Index 111
Freedom from dist. 115
Perceptual Organization 111

These are the SS scores

Letter-Word ID 109
Passage Comp 109
Broad Reading 109
Calculation 120
Applied Problems 108
Broad Math 115
Dictation 103
Writing Samples 124
Broad Written Language 117

Short term memory 113
Processing Speed 113
Auditory Processing 83
Visual Processing 117

Sorry for the mix-up.

///

Those scores are very good. It looks like he is a bright kid doing well in most all areas. The dictation is the only area that is low, really, but 103 is still a good score, a little above average at a percentile of 58%ile. He would not qualify for LD here. He may need more practice in that particular area.

Janis

Thanks for the feedback. That’s what the evaluator said. He was not LD and that he should be a strong A-B student. In my dreams! He is one who makes A’s and B’s on tests, doesn’t turn in any homework, unmotivated and comes home with C’s mostly. Then I have my daughter whos’s LD all over the place and super motivated. Go figure.

I’m hoping a car will be the motivating force in HS. Thanks for your input.