Child acts stupid

While I applaud your efforts to help your son be an independent worker, I think you might try some other tactics.

From your library, you can get books by Jim Faye. His stuff is called “Disciplining with Love & Logic.” This sounds right up your alley, and I don’t mean that sarcastically. Faye is about holding kids accountable and is very creative with his ideas.

I love his section on helicopter parents—probably because I was one. Thought my son was so helpless and everyone was just so mean to him. What an enabler was I—glad you aren’t doing this.

However, most child experts will tell you the hitting or threats of hitting won’t get you long-term results you’re seeking.

Let us know how you’re doing!

To answer your question, I suppose he is aquiring the learned behavior of avoiding your wrath and the subsequent consequences. I’m not certain this will be the best motivator as he gets older.

Having ld myself and gone thru similar struggles with our son when he was younger, I can relate. I did find that setting the timer for study time, and with successful actions, reward with fun things worked pretty good. When I tried similar actions as what you are doing, it only got uglier between us quickly and I deeply resented the negative impact it was having on our relationship… let alone any chance for peace in our house. What I tried to do was get him to spend a chunk of time doing school work (up to 40 minutes at a shot as time went on), and then up to 20 minutes of play time as reward, plus take a break from the books.

We would go outside and toss a ball, shoot hoops, basically find something the two of us could do and get along doing without fighting and take a break from the dullness of school work/ homework.

If the school effort was not up to my satisfaction, he would still get to take the break, but I would limit the amount of fun he could have, plus made the break time shorter so he would notice the difference in reward for behavior. First, I wouldn’t “play” with him for that break. Second, no tv/video game or alternate activity, he could go outside and shoot balls by himself or sit and twiddle his thumbs; made reading an available break activity…

I think, respectfully, it might behoove you to do some research and study on your son’s ld specifics if he has been adequately diagnosed. If he has not, you may want to check into having him properly diagnosed and then address what you can do to help him. Often the ld factors will come across as being lazy or stupid, many of us ld people have been thought of as this; however, the irony is we can actually be quite intelligent… just not according to the “normals” out there.

Patience and knowledge are probably your greatest allies.

When you child gets older and can begin using other avoidance tactics and behaviors, I think it is safe to assume that it won’t be getting any better than things are right now; in fact, it will probably only get uglier. Certainly you can be sure that it won’t be beneficial to his self esteem. I’m not talking about public school concerns about self esteem here, I am speaking about his own self worth and what limitations he will set on himself if he thinks he is dumb or stupid, and believes you.

As an adult lder, who was a child once, (with some childlike qualities to this day), please try to figure out alternative methods while your son is young enough to benefit from the help he needs to adapt to a world that is not very patient with those who aren’t “the norm” (what ever that means).

Good luck and don’t be shy about asking questions…

We are here to help and learn for ourselves too!

Andy

Shawn,

I had a very similar problem with my son in sped. He actually hated that they gave him too much help but they definitely had the perception that he couldn’t do it and so always helped him. Eventually, I started to see this learned helplessness carry over to our home, which freaked me out because he has always been pretty motivated at home where I have high expectations for him. He is now in a regular class and the learned helplessness is gone.

I don’t really need to scream or get mad (although I do understand your frustration) because I use a form of behavioral modification. I make the rules very explicit. He knows exactly what is expected of him. I then provide him with natural consequences that are given without emotion. You need to be as matter of fact as possible.
For instance, with school work I make it very clear that he can not watch t.v. or play video games until it is done. I make sure that the assignment is very explicit. The way you have found to break down the task is probably very helpful. He is probably overwhelmed with the big task as it is assigned.

I have equated this problem in my son with attentional issues. My son can do it when he attends and can’t do anything when he doesn’t. I have lately made a point to show him the difference in his work when he is attending and when he isn’t. He needs to learn to control his attention through routines and help with planning. Questions that lead him to developing a plan and decipher what is and is not working can help tremendously.

I would also be sure to do the homework the same time every day, in the same place, with a similar routine that he can adapt to. My son gets a snack when he gets home from school then sits in the dining room where I go over the assignment to make sure he understands what is needed, then I leave. After he is done he does something fun.

Take the emotion out of the picture. It doesn’t help and might actually hurt in the end.

Get the book, “Back Talk”

Under extreme duress, human beings are capable of doing many things they would never be able to do otherwise. I’ll start by saying that I am one of those people who doesn’t believe in spanking and I could bore you to death with all of the research supporting my perspective on that subject. But let me see if I can help you with some things you might find more constructive. My son is autistic. I used to think he was the most stubborn child I’d ever met and I’d worked in special education so that is saying something.. I thought it was my job to make sure his behavior conformed with societies expectations and I wasted a lot of time in power struggles with him. It wasn’t until I recognized that his behavior wasn’t just defiance but because of real developmental and neurological problems that I was able to start finding more constructive ways of relating to him. He has been in special education for a few years now, his behavior is improving and more importantly… our relationship is intact. Your son responding to a timer is not uncommon for children in special ed. Structure and easy to understand expectations are more important to special ed children than other children. As for having to threaten him… isn’t there anything you can offer him in the way of positive behavioral reinforcement? My children, including my autistic child, respond well to earning rewards and privileges. So well that when I want better behavior from them I can ask “are you earning your priviledges,” and they respond positively. It didn’t start that way. With my autistic child, we had to start with very tangible rewards. Has anyone tried a behavioral program with your child? Using charts, insentives, etc.? Another perspective that I can offer you is that I have learning disabilities that make some things very difficult for me, not impossible but very difficult. It does sometimes become a matter of priorities… if something terrible will happen if I don’t get something done then of course that thing will become a priority… As an adult, I have some control over what my priorities are. Trust me, writing exersices were painful to me in school and would never make it on to my list of priorities now. Writing a check to PG&E on the other hand… I don’t write thank you letters because my writing is embarassing and I lack the organizational skills to print things out, find an envelope, find my adress book, put addresses into the book to begin with, address the envelope, find a stamp and get it into the mail. I’ve gotten part way through the process many times only to find th unfinished product in that stack of things I can’t seem to find a place for months down the road. My friends don’t think I am rude, I show my gratitude to them in many other ways. I’m going on about these things in hopes of explaining to you why the threats work but also I hope to make you understand that there are other ways of helping your son work on his priorities and develop a more positive relationship with him at the same time. Threats may work at eight years old but not forever. Are witing exercises really a priority for either of you? What about learning to use a computer to write to your local mayor about building a community skateboard park or some other thing that your son might feel inspired to do? Good luck to you and your son.

Andy,
Yes, developing a working relationship with your child where the reward is the great relationship itself is the parenting ideal.

Congrats on accomplishing that.
We should all aspire to your ideal.

It’s not uncommon for children of this age to have support from their teachers and parents regardless of whether they’re in special ed. or not. Why do you feel it is of such crucial importance that an 8 year old work alone?

My own son has learning issues and I sat next to him while he did his schoolwork at night. I did my work at the same time. Me doing my work while he did his gave him a good visual example of how work could and should be done. It wasn’t just me telling him - it was me showing him. He could then also ask me questions if he needed to.

My son is in college now, working independently and successful. I’m sure your son will be too.

Good luck.

You’ve gotten great advice, all of which is very similar. I’m just adding another book to the suggestions: Jane Nelsen’s “Positive Discipline”. There are also “Positive Discipline” workshops around - they’re generally held once a week for about 7 or 8 weeks.

What everyone is asking you to do will require a major shift in your approach to him and, in fact, your general outlook. And remember that sometimes it gets worse initially for a short period before it gets better. But it’s SO worth it that I strongly urge you to make the shift. Your relationship with your son over the long haul, as well as his academic work, is at risk.

Good advice above and I won’t repeat it. I had some battle royal events with my own kid, and yes, some kids are more difficult than others. But do work to redirect him to positive actions; some ideas on that below.

A couple of other things:

You write “child acts stupid”. Try to avoid the word “stupid” — he hears it too often already. It doesn’t help. Even if you use it in the negative, like “you’re not stupid”, the only thing he hears is the word stupid. You can still be realistic and honest, but try to find positive ways of saying things.

A lot of special education is ineffective and often makes things worse. You won’t get any arguments about that here. But with your son, the goal is to work the system and get the most out of it that you can for him. Instead of telling them what not to do, a losing battle, see if there is any way you can get something, anything, useful done there.

About that homework — copying the definions of words from a simplified book onto a paper — what was the goal of that exercise? Consider your own background and education — did you ever learn anything useful in this way? Personally, I feel that a child who resists doing this kind of trash is showing some intelligence and character. Can you talk with the school about getting him some things to do that are actually worth doing, like reading a real story out loud to you, writing a short paragraph, answering some social studies questions that actually require understanding the reading, and so on?

You say he is capable of doing the work and when you drew the line in the sand he did it. Yes, but … Can he actually pronounce the words out loud, or is he just copying them letter by letter? Does he actually understand the kiddie dictionary definitions, or are they just other things to copy letter by letter? Imagine yourself on a holiday abroad if you had been captured by terrorists and sent to their “re-education” center; you are told you have to look up and copy the meanings of a bunch of words and you will be punished if you don’t do one word per five minutes — but all the words are in some other alphabet that you don’t know. Well, to avoid punishment you could certainly copy the shapes from page A to page B. But it certainly wouldn’t be a learning exercise! Many special ed kids (and a lot of regular ed too) are in this situation with the required homework — it’s a meaningless foreign language to them — and again, resistance is a positive human sign. Try sitting with him and actually *discussing* his work. What does it say? What does it mean? Why is he supposed to do this work? What should he remember from it — and have him recite over anything he should learn, out loud, with you.

You say the teachers sit beside him and feed him the answers. Again, you’ll get no arguments here. I see far to much of this in regular classes as well as special ed. All the more reason to sit with him and actually *talk about* the work. What, where, why and how? Once he has figured out the answer in his own mind, THE write it down. Sure, this takes time and effort. Tell me, how much time and energy is WWIII taking by comparison? It’s really worth it to get his persistence and force of character directed to learning instead of manipulating people.

Finally, make sure he actually knows how to read. Far too many kids (regular ed and all) are now given “hope and guess” curriculum. Since they don’t really know what a word says, they just guess by general appearance and what they make up from the pictures and are always totally unsure; this leads to more resistance against doing things that they really don’t follow. Since they have no idea of how to tell similar words apart, they make all sorts of errors and feel even more negative. And since they have no idea of how the letters in a word are related to its sounds, they can’t spell for beans and have to copy painfully letter by letter as you would do in a foreign alphabet. Ask me by email, or read some stuff on the LD In Depth and the Teaching Reading boards, about how to straighten things out and get a child really reading.

As an adult I had my toenail torn off and it was bandaged at a clinic with gauze. At the end of the day I realized that that bandage was hopelessly glued to that open wound and I was going to have to rip it off. I tried soaking, everything to avoid it but it came down to pulling it off. I sat looking at it for about 6 hours before I finally did it. You could hear my scream thruout the whole apt bldg. I realize now it was akin to what I would do before writing a college paper.

I’m not going to beat around the bush here — you need counseling to get a grip on your parenting style and you need to read some books about learning disabilities. The pressure you are putting on him at his age is ridiculous. He probably “LOVES special ed” because it is the only place he can let his guard down.

Everything that you’ve stated that you do to help him is negative. Are you doing this to help him learn (and, incidentally, he will never enjoy learning with your methods) or because he embarrases you by “act[ing] stupid”? Why would you post on a bulletin board for parents of kids with learning disabilities and use the immflamatory word “stupid”? I struggled with learning disabilities growing up myself, and I can tell you from personal experience the two most damaging adjectives are “stupid” and “lazy”.

Threats and spankings are the only things that work for you because you haven’t come up with anything better. Please educate yourself and try other methods for teaching your son. I guarantee there is something out there that is more effective.

„

I don’t think responding to the mom in the same way that she initially responded to her child is really going to help.

Some people need help to do what is right. You too should remove the emotions from your input.

As I stated in my first post, I have learning disabilities myself, although I didn’t know it until my own child was diagnosed, and spent my childhood being treated in a way similar to how this mom treats her son. I can not adequately express to you how horribly damaging it is to a child. I thought that was more important than sparing the mother’s feelings.

I apologize for being overly judgemental in my original post not knowing the full story, but my suggestion to this mother to get some counseling stands. It sounds like she’s angry about her child’s disabilities and in some denial. We all know what hard work it is to parent a child with LDs and we all make mistakes. I just don’t think this mom realizes she’s making any.

YOu’ve had lots of good advice & thoughts from the parenting experts but I would just have to toss in another vote for a totally radical approach — you find out whether or not copying defintiions really helps him learn the meanings. (Fact is, there are lots of us who *do* learn well by writing stuff.) You focus on the goal of learning the words, on learning everything he can instead of focusing on Doing What You Have To Do TO Get Through Special Ed which is of course not a whole lot.
VOcabulary and using words is a skill that requires practice to develop — it’s a real nexus of the “Matthew Effect” where the regular ed kid is constantly building language skills and experiences, and the LD child *could* be with the right (but usually different) instruction, but instead is getting further and further behind and is getting, in fact, genuinely “stupider” by objective measures.
Consider that you’re working with him on a “do what I say because I am the boss” level — but somehow that’s *not* good enough for special ed, there he should be going past the expectations for the sake of self-challenge and learning.
If (as is true for just about every sped kid I’ve known) in fact copying is lovely busy work, then I’d help him with that part and discuss the words and learn them.
If (as is too often true) they’re not really appropriate words — sort of randomly chosen from some magic busy-work-for-the-masses or “taken from classwork” — I’d pick a few to really learn right, and make them important.
Sometimes the attitude to take is to conspire against the forces that are keeping him from learning.

I think that someone who takes the time to boot up the computer and search out a site for answers deserves the benefit of the doubt. Also, she never said she spanked him, that was inferred.

Yes, we were raised by parents who used too much emotion and very little skill. Too bad our parents did not have the internet.

I still remember after my child was born my mom said, “You don’t need those parenting books, that is what I am here for.”

Oh boy, did I ever need those parenting books;]

Well, you have established that he can do the assigned work if suitably motivated. You probably do need to stay in the room with him in order to keep him on task, even if you aren’t actually sitting next to him, and I would continue to do so. My twelve year old still does her homework at the kitchen table, although I do not directly supervise her any more. If sent to her room to work, she tends to lose track of time.

Part of the problem may be that he just hates it all so much that he’d rather do anything rather than his work. Unfortunately, he is clearly a child who is capable of entertaining himself without external aids for a considerable period of time, so timeouts and loss of privileges are not going to be any use. I would keep the timer - which is helping him break the work down into manageable proportions - and keep the sanctions, but I would also lavishly praise him whenever he did what he was expected of him, instead of going all sarcastic, and focus on how many he did right, rather than on how many he did wrong. (E.g. “Wow, honey! You did all twenty words in the time allotted, and you did five perfectly! That’s two better than yesterday! You are really coming along!”, as opposed to “See? I told you you could handle this simple, trivial, task if only you would put your mind to it. Why you always put us through these things is beyond me. Now do these ten over; your teacher will never be able to read your horrible chicken-scratch.”) I would also have him take breaks with you every half hour or so. Yes, this is wearisome for an adult. What can I say, other than tough sh*t? It’s not like he is having oodles of fun either, and you do need to build a relationship with him while it is still possible.

P.S. I speak from experience. I’ve tried both ways myself, and while impersonating a raving maniac works short-term in order to get the kid to actually TRY to do it in order to show her that she CAN in fact do it, it doesn’t work long-term. The kid figures out “Well, okay, I can do this, but I still don’t want to, and given the laws against child abuse, there’s not really a lot she can legally do to me if I don’t, and while she does a good impersonation of a crazy lady, I don’t think she is certifiably nuts.” You want to change your behavior before your kid gets to this point. Dismemberment is still illegal, right? Yeah, that’s what I’d heard, too.