OK so what is the value of complete testing

Testing provides information. If you feel you adequately understand where the breakdown is, then I wouldn’t do it.

If you don’t want him to go through testing but would still like some more information, you could buy the book Reading Reflex which has several testsof basic skills required for reading (segmenting, blending, phonemic manipulation, as well as code knowledge). I think several of us are concerned that his spelling is so off—that there are some underlying issues related to reading processes that need remediation in order for spelling to improve. If he can pass the tests with flying colors, then I would buy AVKO spelling. It works on patterns and I know parents who have had great success at improving kid’s spelling with it. If he doesn’t pass all the tests, then you will have knowledge of what basic skill he is missing. The book will help you address it and then you could follow up with AVKO.

My gut says this is a bright child who has learned to compenstate for some underlying deficiciency in basic reading skills.

Beth

First realize that an awful lot of folks wouldn’t know sprang from sprung - the medial vowels are the toughest. Those of us for whom it’s as natural as breathing don’t realize there are so many other ways people figure out what word you’re saying and how to spell it (it sure was news to me!).
‘Tis an unfortunate fact that no, really, the school does not necessarily take the responsibility of teaching our kids — which is aggravating, infuriating, especially when they spend so much effort putting on a show so it sort of looks like it. And of course when parents step in and do it for ‘em, they tend to take the credit.
You’ve already answered your question — if the information will be useful for you for understanding your kiddo, then the testing is worth doing. It is worth weighing the down side — knowing that the stated purpose (of designing an appropriate remedial program for him) isn’t valid. If you have reason to believe it really won’t be, then I wouldn’t bother or I’d find somebody competent to do it; also, if you think it could be used against him to lower expectations (but it sounds like expectations are already low) that could be a factor.

Sue, exactly what happened to my son. The testing was used to lower expectations. I wish we never did it.

Once he is fully remediated I intend to get him retested outside of school to have it placed in his record to end the lowered expectations. I has a serious issue with some of the things that were done during testing and really wished I had been more forceful in having some things changed back then.

The value of testing is information and to guage progress. The value of having the school do it (sometimes you have to tell them exactly what tests to do) is that they pay and you don’t.

Helen

I’m a strong believer in getting kids PROPERLY evaluated, by experienced, qualified LD experts, because it is difficult to know what is necessary to help the child unless you know what the problem really is in the first place. Lots of times kids have the same symptom but it is caused by a different problem. In my son’s gt/ld class, for example, all of the children had difficulty with both handwriting and written expression. They all had poor handwriting, wrote as little as they could get away with, never elaborated, couldn’t spell, etc. For some kids it was because they had memory and attention difficulties. For others the problem stemmed from dyslexia (and there were different types of dyslexia at play). Some kids had nonverbal learning disabilities. Some kids had too many ideas and couldn’t figure out how to narrow them down or how to get past the initial thought. Some kids had great difficulty coming up with that first idea to get started. They all needed different kinds of help, even though on the surface it seemed like their problems were similar. From what you’ve posted, it sounds like the school’s testing may not be the best choice. They’ve already indicated that they don’t want to help, so it seems unlikely to me that they would really be interested in doing the kind of thorough evaluation that is necessary to tease out the origin of the child’s difficulties. Is private testing at all possible? Even if the school ignores it, at least you would know what is really going on and could use the information to help in your own efforts to provide remediation.

Andrea

Andrea,

where did you get your child to go to gifted/ld class?

Ewa

Montgomery County, MD, where we live, has such a class. There are also gt/ld classes in places in NY and Hawaii. There may be other places that have them as well, but it is not the norm, even though it should be.

Andrea

It is also available in connecticut. In places where the it is not the norm school testing becomes an opportunity to put very bright kids in remedial classes where their strengths are not addressed and their weakness are highlighted.

This can have the child believing all he has are weaknesses. I think this is changing as I watch the teachings of Mel Levine embraced. I think we have a ways to go.
Andrea, count you blessings.

Linda, where in CT?

would love to hear- I live in CT and have extremaly different experience…

your child is really lucky….

I used to live in Wilton Ct. I could swear I remember them having this.

This was a few years ago and before my son was in school so it is possible I am remembering wrong or that things have changed.

thanks.

I will ask my advocate whether she knows anything about that.

When I asked about the TAG program in our district I was told it is for children with high achivement’s scores, in particular in verbal section…

For my son who scores two standard deviations higher on non-verbal skills than verbal, there was only resource room…

My daugher, Gifted/LD goes to a “regular” gifted classroom WITH accommodations. She is a gifted performance IQ, lower, i.e., average, verbal IQ child. Fourth grade. The other gifted children read to her and/or help her with the harder words in class. She thrives on it and meets most all the standards. Her teacher wrote today on her progress report that she is “an empowered female”.
We live in Florida. (BTW, we “blazed a frontier” in this gifted/LD area b/c prior to her, they didn’t do this).

Leah,
your daughter sounds like my son whose verbal went down from above average to average (during the first three years of school- no wonder he never learned how to read and only got more and more frustrated) and his gifted performance did not impress the principal at all. His also very creative, but I was told it does not really count…

We gave up on the gifted program since we opted for him to go to LD school (his school was open classroom- disaster for his profile), but I felt not even considering him for a gifted program was really unfair (especially after the resource teacher was telling him that he is more likely the smartest kid in his class).

On the other hand- it made it easier for us to decide that he needs to leave his old school….

Two sides to this story.

On one side, some parents want the kid classified and set up with an IEP so that there can be accommodations such as longer test time, use of laptop, etc. Occasionally there is reading skills help and even more occasionally it is real help. But the usual reason is for the legal protection for accommodations.

On the other side if the kid is classified, there is a stigma and those lowered expectations. Some people avoid testing and IEP’s for this reason.

Tests can give you useful information. On the other hand, they can spend days to tell you either nothing or the obvious. I recommend tests when something is unusual or puzzling or not responding to every possible form of remediation.

Personally, I work as a tutor and teach interactively. I watch and listen to what my student can do and ask questions. Personal one-to-one interaction can pinpoint many things that just don’t show up on tests. For one extreme example (sorry to repeat an old story) , I taught a student with a genetic disorder known ans Kleinfelter’s Syndrome. He had passed the sequencing test using pictures and the school claimed that he could add and was learning multiplication and was up to the three times tables. Detailed interactive lessons turned up the fact that he could not count accurately past six (what was 3X3 again?? or 4 + 7??), could not subtract, could not count backwards, and could not sequence verbally *at all* — although perfectly physically competent, he could not tell you if shoes went on before socks or after. In later reading I found that this kind of verbal sequencing disorder shows up in Kleinfelter’s. But, the important point is, that in days and days of testing the supposedly qualified and very highly paid school psychologist had never spotted this and passed him on sequencing.

Good teaching — which includes watching and listening to the students, and adapting programs depending on what succeeds and where strengths and weaknesses are found — is the main thing needed. Mechanical dependenceon standardized tests and following programs rigidly will never get at all the roots of whatever problems.

I think the virtue is in having him tested to find out the answer to your questions. However, if the school can’t remediate him chances are they can’t test him properly either. If you’re truly a data junkie you can try figuring it out yourself. Reading breaks down into components. Decoding is something you can do a search on on this board. That means breaking down words and being able to sound them out. What most people call reading. Unfortunately it doesn’t end there. Even if you can decode you may not be able to “read” as in function and do highschool history or science assignments. Fluency plays a part. There may be a Rapid Naming Deficit. You could do word searches for these tings on here too- if you’re a real junkie. Comprehension may be a problem as in you decode but can’t understand what you’ve read.
It sounds like your son would benefit from PG. The book Reading Reflex is designed for parents to be able to teach kids phonemes. You’ll learn a lot from it . And even if you don’t end up using it to teach decoding it will help with spelling too.
You say he can read these words-but he may just know them by sight. In other words may just have them memorized and not be able to break them down into phonemes. Many schools teaach what is called whole word method and kids do not learn phonemes and consequently how to spell. Just cause a school SAYS they teach phonetics don’t make it so.
Can he read aloud a high school history text? Can he read a chapter of Lord of the Rings to you? Can he read a techical manual of some kind, computer, bike repair- something he doesn’t know already and then explain it to you?

Good for you and your daughter, Leah! It is critically important that gt/ld children be permitted access to challenging classes. What I have often said about school, particularly elementary school, is that is was simultaneously too easy and too hard for my son. The only thing that kept him going on the tough stuff was the intellectual stimulation he got from the gifted curriculum. So many schools think that being gifted means being able to produce vast quantities of work. To them, the gifted kid is the one who does the extra credit questions, spells everything right, always does his homework and always produces neat, tidy work. This attitude totally ignores kids who have the aptitude to take on more challenging work but who cannot produce in volume due to LD or ADHD.

Ewa, you should fight hard to get your child access to gifted classes. There are lots of good articles on gifted/ld in the LD in Depth section of this website. Perhaps the school might be more understanding after seeing some of these. Making sure a gifted child is challenged is always important, but it is vital to ensuring the success of a child who is both gifted and has learning disabilities. My son has graduated from special ed and now attends a private school for gifted boys. He loves it there and has straight As. He still has his LDs, but he has learned ways to compensate for them. He works harder than any kid I know, but he knows he can achieve, probably because he was allowed to be successful and, by being given access to a stimulating curriculum, was acknowledged as the smart kid he is.

Andrea

Andrea,
thanks for the encouragement.

My son is now in a private LD school where he will not be challenged academically so much, but I hope he will improve his basic academic skills (reading, writing, math facts and organization skills) to a point that he will be confident he can do well in school.

I did not push the gifted program admission since we decided he just needs another educational environment, and we had chosen to fight for this private LD school rather (he was really frustrated when in regular classroom setting; we had him even evaluated for depression- per suggestion from neuropsychological evaluation).

He is doing beautifully in a new school, although I am perfectly aware he is not really gaining much of content knowledge, but his basic skills (reading, math facts, writing) are really improving (not mentioning his self-esteem). I plan on sending him to some academically driven summer program and re-visit the “gifted program” idea once he gets back to his regular school district (in a year or two).

I have already printed some info about LD/gifted and I am creating a file ready to approach the school when the time comes…

I hope that if we succeeded in placing him in a private LD school paid by a district, we will manage to get him into gifted program if we do our share of asking…

Thanks once more for the support…

Well, so far, we have done well in the gifted classroom. We’ll play it year by year.

Every year I write a letter to the school requesting a certain “type” of teacher/classroom (flexible, positive, etc.), I write “Because of the private intervention that we have provided , _________ has made tremendous progress…”. That way there’s no question about giving credit where credit is due. :-).

Thanks for the encouragement, Andrea.

Funny thing today I called the middle school in our county where my daughter is supposed to go (Of course, she’s only in 4th grade, but I’m a planner).

I have a meeting with the head of the gifted department this coming Thursday. I explained that I fully EXPECT blah, blah, blah… instead of the way I used to approach it: “Do you think they’ll be any problem?…”

They have gifted only tracks and I explained that b/c my daughter is on an IEP, I expect them to “customize” her classes, including allowing her to attend gifted and general ed, as needed in the event ALL gifted was too much. And I expected the teachers to be “hand picked”. I also told her that it has been my experience “to be told one thing and then receive another”. She ASSURED me (?! yeah, right) that accomodating her would not be a problem. I told her that I hoped not, b/c if it was I would seek “special assignment” to a nearby county which WAS willing to customize her curriculum. (This was only the t/c). I told her I would have an outline to go over at our meeting on Thursday.

I have learned to be assertive and expect them to do it, and not ASK them. If they don’t, I go to the next person on the hierarchy. So far, it’s been effective. I always tell my friends that if I mysteriously disappear to start the homicide investigation at the local school ;-)

Hi there,

Again, I have been reading and searching as it is time for my “daughter’s three year evaluation. They initially told me that they wanted to perform it at the end of this school year. She is nine years old (Birth Aug/1993) and in the fourth grade.
In first grade when she was struggling with everything from the coursework to social skills etc. At that time (January Conference) I asked for evaluation, assisstance anything that could possibly help my daughter being a single parent, I felt like I was blaming the issues on myself, my daughter and then the system. Testing seemed to be a way for me to get a guage on the “what”. The testing occured in June of that year but only by my pushing they kept telling me she was on a “list”. I have not a clue which tests they performed but they came up with some basic issues (behavior, I took that as a parental fault at the time and remedial math and english). So they wrote a “Plan” and the following year I went in two weeks after school started to get an update from her current teacher to how her status was thus far. What I recieved was and possibly could be a standard statement as I have read it on these boards before “Geez, Lisa I wasnt aware that your daughter had an IEP. My going in at that time was that I had said that I wanted two weeks progress notes (vague as now I would say that I wanted detailed this or that in regards to each goal on her IEP).
Any way we are now in the fourth grade, new teachers, new LD teachers, New director of Special Education, New, New, New.
I am curious as to what tests are the minimal norm that can be performed to keep a set of educators on line and what is a rational norm that can be asked for and performed. I also do not mind getting an outside source to do the testing as well.
I did recently recieve a Parental Behavior Assessment System for Children to complete. I can complete this test. It’s packaging makes me weary as it’s a carboned test but obviously they dont want me seeing the underside. It is also a number of questions with the option of Never, Sometimes, Often, Almost Always, which I know most here are very aware of. My concern is that I also believe that this LD Specilist should also be doing onsite observation not only in her classroom but on the playground, in the lunch room, during library, music, even at her after Art School (which I pay for).
We also are meeting once again as my daughter had an incident wear my daughter refused to comply. Two and a half hours into the incident they telephoned me. Which is a gripe that I have in their timing. They were aware that I was to be out of town this week for training (100 miles away from the school). I had left two numbers for contact should a situation arise along with where I was going to be. They state they called the first number one time and the second number was bogus as it went to a business. They called my 12 year old out of her Junior High School classroom asking her what to do and was there anyone else they might call to help with their situation. (She made her suggestions she was also left hanging with worry about her sister). The first number was to my Significant Other whom the principal knows as his son happens to play with her nephew quite often. He lives two blocks from the school. Also, his son attends the same school and could have been asked if he knew how to get a hold of his father. Like I said they finally called me at my workplace. I handle the situation and in five minutes she was back in class, problem solved. Most likely not in the best way but it was solved. I was told they didnt want to bother me. I recieved a “Letter describing some of the 2 1/2 hour occurances” that is to go into her file throughout the letter the word “Defy” is used repeatedly. My feeling is that this principal wants to put my daughter in an “enclosed classroom” one on one, as it appears she is building a case. She also stated at a previous meeting that it was an option when needed. I did call a meeting with the Director of Special Education and stated some of my concerns. We are to have another IEP meeting with this group of people, some whom I obviously no longer trust, others who do desire to see my daughter succeed but arent necessarily trained in all aspects either. A meeting that is to occur very soon.

I know that I need to get my ducks in a row as soon as possible but not knowing all the tests or suggestions to make I can see myself and daugther getting the basics performed that meet with the IDEA/507 compliance. I am not a native of North Dakota and do not know all the resources available nor the one’s to stay away from either. I did contact an agency seeking an advacate or just someone who knows at least some of the ropes. This was about six weeks ago. They took my information and stated that they were going to put me in contact with two local families. Nada nothing in that area.

Sorry for this long post but it just kept coming out so I kept typing. Any and suggestions, help would be greatly appreciated. I do not believe that my daughter needs to be placed in an enclosed classroom. I do believe that my daughter has difficulties with social skills, that she misintreprets. One of her art teachers (private afterschool program) asked me if my daughter had been diagnosed with Asberger’s much to my surprise. I have been of the mind that she has a nonverbal learning disorder unspecified but believe that its possible that she may just be a high functioning form of Autism. I am an open person who really would prefer that my daughter not have a label but that is my emotion talking. I want my daughter to succeed and if I dont help her then she will continue to struggle. The principal asked me at the last meeting “Do you plan on saving your daughter forever” at this point in time my answer is yes and with this situation my answer is yes. She didnt like my answer if I might add either.

Thanks for the input,
Lisa

“Alone we can do so little, together we can do so much.” Helen Keller