Your opinions on LMB or Pace & MTC

I just recently received audiblox. I think it is a wonderful program. For the longest time I have been saying, and reading here, that you need to get at the core deficits. Well, that is what this program does.

It addresses; sequencing, visual spatial, fine motor, balance, memory, logic and a few other core skills. I think it works on visual imagery to some degree as well. You are just imaging the blocks and not letters.

I don’t think it works on the higher level skills like comprehension. I do think that once the brain is freed of having to work on the lower level skills like sequencing you can address comprehension. I would get at these lower level skills to automaticity first if they are a problem.

I am kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

One thing I would suggest is, if you are going to do it do it right the first time. I think it is something you have to throw your focus at for awhile and put everything else away for now. You have to really be committed.

I just ordered the book and the blocks. I may order the word cards but I am on the fence because my son is a fairly competent reader.

Hi Linda!
I didn’t know you were considering audioblox! Please keep posting information about it, what the activities are like, how often and for how long you do them etc. I feel like something that hits the core deficits , which as multiple in nature, would be a great thing to do next. Sort of why we did IM originally, but I’m not sure I want to do more IM, or try something new. Thanks for the updates!

I think that this is a good prep for IM. If we had done this first we may not have had to do so many sessions.

A few of the exercises I really like include; throwing beanbags simultaineously, with me throwing with the left and he catching with the left and at the same time he throws with the right and I catch with the right. It is hard but fun.

Another involves a big arrows chart where you have to move your arm in the direction and at the same time, yell out the direction. It automates left and right which I think will help with reading and writing.

I really like the logic one the best. It involves creating a pattern (outlined in the book) such as: red, yellow, blue, red, yellow, now tell me what comes next? They get much harder as well.

We have done PACE which has some similar exercises. We did it before IM and I think we should have done IM first. We really got stuck because my son’s deficits are more sensory based than cognitive and PACE, like Audioblox, are primarily cognitive programs.

In other words, I think you did it right to do IM first.

Beth

I know DEA who posts here sometimes has done PACE/MTC with her child. The clinic she went for training told her that they get very similar results with both LMB and PACE/MTC. She did PACE/MTC because it was more convenient for her.

We did PACE but elected not to do MTC because we had enough of drill. Most of PACE has some fun elements but their auditory processing exercises are tough for a kid with AP. Afterwards, we did The Listening Program, but I should have done it first. He just couldn’t master it. But after the TLP he could do in days, things he couldn’t accomplish in months of drill. DEA did Tomatis first and her child sailed through things my son just couldn’t do. If your child has auditory processing issues, I would def. suggest doing some sort of sound therapy before PACE.

MTC requires the parent work three hours a week with the child. LMB can be done in an intensive and the parent has to make sure they get them there!!!
MTC can take a kid further with reading—I read suggestions here to follow LMB up with OG. I know people whose children were reading at a high school level after MTC.

PACE is broadly based and can improve other underlying skills. It has visualizing incorporated into it. (We saw some improvements but unremediated SI issues hampered progress). Audioblox can probably get you some of the same things but not as quickly. Audioblox doesn’t have the AP stuff that PACE does but if you are following up with LMB that isn’t an issue.

Bottom line: both LMB and PACE/MTC are good programs and you should weigh cost, convenience, your child’s personality, your ability/desire to work with your child.

Beth

Actually, I was suprised just how much emphasis is placed on balancing, bilateral integration, eye hand coordination, fine motor issues etc….
Even some of the exercises that involve sequencing emphasize the need to cross at the midline etc..
I think it has a pretty nice sensory component.

I think if my son worked out some of his sequencing, balance, and directionality issues before IM it would have been easier. He had a tough time especially with balance using his feet.

I am sure you are right on the balance. We worked out the balance issues with Neuronet and so he had a much easier time with it. We did directionality work with PACE and although he barely got to age level on the exercises, he was def. much better than before. For us, anyway, IM made the sequencing easier—we got no where with the sequencing work in PACE. Since IM, we’ve had a lot of success.

Audioblox sounds perfect for him. I picked PACE because my son also has auditory processing difficulties and Audioblox doesn’t really address that.

Beth

You have done a lot of work in remediating the processing issues. If you want to improve the reading I recommend LMB. While it certainly address auditory processing issues, it will actually teach him via direct instruction to decode words for reading and spelling.

I agree. I think that audiblox is a really good visual, motor program. I think it is therefore the perfect fit for my son.

Isn’t that just it. The right program for the right kid.

Hi Linda,
I only purchased the book and blocks as well. I figured that I had already done so much reading intervention (and continue to do so!) that it was more important to focus in other areas.

Good luck with Audiblox and let us know how it goes! :-)

I don’t think you could go wrong with either, but following was my thought process when I was faced with that decision. The reading clinic where we had dd’s assessment done, offers both LMB and PACE/MTC. They had just started offering MTC when we saw them. They typically would provide LMB, but would supplement with PACE if the child had processing speed issues. They were piloting MTC and had found that MTC was giving them the same kind of results - but they had more experience with LMB.

The reading center was a good hour from us - longer with Rush Hour. They wanted to see dd for 9mo., 1hr. 4x per week. It was just more than we could handle - can’t even remember the price, but it was high. We then found a PACE/MTC provider only 5min. away. They wanted between $5K-$10K when all said and done. Again, not something I could stomach. Thus I took the PACE/MTC 3 day training class to provide myself - cost me $2700. I figured the 3hrs total time it was going to take me to drive to the LMB clinic, offset the 1hr. battle I would have with dd doing myself. An additioanl benefit is that I can re-do as often as I like, anytime I like. I also understand how to reinforce when I was reading with dd. (I also figured if times got too bad and I lost my day job, I could fall back on being a provider myself - although would have to pay an additional fee).

Results:

LMB - we did LMB couple other times. Had not seen ANY results. However, I don’t think provider ever really got past the Lip poppers, tongue tappers. The blocks and felts piece would probably have been beneficial. Seeing Stars/V/V were 2 more additioanl programs, not part of LMB base program that we were offered. Felt it was complicated program - NEVER understood those lip poppers so that I could work with child at home. I was willing to try again.

Audiblox - saw some early improvements - learned more sight words, but the reading program does not do ANY phonemic awareness activities. Felt it was reinforcing dd’s look and guess habit -not fixing it. Her LAC tests decreased by 1 yr. while doing Audiblox. Helps with visual memory, but not imaging.

PACE/MTC - I’m getting pretty much everything the other programs offer in one program (ok -2, but I paid for them as a set). I don’t feel LMB or Audiblox addresses processing speed like PACE. Took us 4mo. to get thru PACE, 2 additional for MTC and never completed MTC. We saw pretty big improvements, but still have issues. MTC I felt was good, but as you got to the more complex code - it was confusing for my 8 yr old. Now that she is 9, we have opened up the program book again, and she’s much improved even from where we left off. It was easy to get burned out on doing it. It’s alot of drill. MTC is a combination of PG and LMB -incorporates many of their exercices - including V/V or Seeing Stars to some extend.

Last comment - these are ALL cognitive programs. If your child still has issues at the sensory level, it is always best to address that first,but not 100% necessary. You will find the cognitive work just comes easier and quicker. We chose sound therapy 1st, but IM would probably be a good one too. VT also, if that is an issue.

Plus of course you can’t do everything at once. My son would certainly benefit from OT ( I think the root cause of much of his processing issues are related to motor planning) but when you have a 3rd grader barely reading you ‘ve got to jump in with some tactical reading work. SO we keep switching between cognitive, academic and sensory. I have to think they complement each other and there’s no way to know what to do first.

No new news on LMB seeing stars yet, mostly because we’ve stopped doing stuff at home so its hard to tell if its helping … but I’ve noticed in the last few weeks a greater willingness/ability to just read words on a sign, in passing. Not that the words were difficult before, but he’d avoid any reading - as if text didn’t exist. We did read a paragraph together last night and he attacked a multi-syllabic word with gusto, but then later mis-read “late” as “latt”. Too soon for a verdict though…

When we did sound therapy prior to PACE it only took 3 days. Something like The Listening Program you can do concurrently - only takes 15min. 2x per day - it’s just listening.

But I know what you mean. We were fortunate that we started ‘remediation’ at age 5 and have been able to address alot of the lower level issues with intense programs at an early age. Prior to when reading becomes more challenging and you have much more homework requirements. We’ve been at this for 4 years now. I just now feel like we have been able to take a breather - which we have done for past 6-8mo. Just now starting back up again. It never ends.

Oy, sounds like the LMB teacher wasn’t very good at it if s/he never got past the first couple of consonant pairs. One of the hallmarks of the LIPS program is to keep it moving, to start blocks VERY early on. I always think of all the LMB programs as being of the “hit the ground running” variety. They stress in the training that one has to keep the pace going. They also stress that the most frequent mistake of an inexperienced LIPS teacher is to spend too much time on just one thing.

I’m taking my son for IM testing next week and will most likely start next month (if they have a time slot for us).

What I’m planning to do following IM is VT and Seeing Stars (I plan to order the books and do it at home). If we have time I’ll also add Audiblox.

However, if I were going to do PACE, I’d choose MTC in place of SS.

I think you need to weigh time, location, costs and what program you feel may be more beneficial for your child.

Although I think either one would be helpful. Best of luck to you with your decision! :-)

I started working with my son after first grade, beginning with Fast Forward. He had speech and OT before that. Still, I really wish we had started one year earlier on intense home therapy. I think it would have made the “catching up” much easier. But my son’s problems weren’t as glaring as your daughter’s–probably because my son’s problems were somewhat milder but spread across multiple areas (both language and NVLD like) and your daughter’s were focused in the auditory/memory.

He is nine and I feel like we are still running to catch up. How I would like that 6-8 month break to be well, normal!!!

Beth

I understand the IM provider that I will more than likely contact for therapy also provides sound therapy. I had wondered if my child should do that before IM. (Haven’t contacted him yet, because child will be having T&A first.)
Also, how hard was it to get your daughter to work with you during Pace/MTC? One reason I was leaning toward LMB is that they work with the child. Wonderful child of mine doesn’t work well with me for the most part, especially in training. The only exercises/therapy homework he has done without a battle is VT exercises. He actually looked forward to VT. He only complained twice out of six months of vision therapy. His therapist said he always worked hard for her. OT was a different matter, he wasn’t motivated at all with some of the OT exercises. That is another reason I wanted to do IM before going on to cognitive therapies. I wanted to make sure sensory issues were basically taken care of. Another reason to look at sound therapy?

Does your child have auditory processing issues? We did do sound therapy before IM (The Listening Program). We did see improvements in auditory processing and fine motor skills from it. I really don’t know if it made IM easier but I know it would have made PACE easier (we did afterwards and returned to some exercises and it was amazing what difference it made).

Beth

The 1st provider we used did it once per week for 4 mo. If she got to the blocks/felts I never knew. According to her, she was progressing great - I never saw any improvement.

The 2nd time was provided by the school resource teacher - need I say more.

We had done so many ‘home’ programs over the past 4 years that my dd and I got into a good ‘working’ relationship. This did not happen overnight and as she got older it got harder to motivate her.

We set the rules up front. Doing program was not optional. DD could decide how/when/where each night, but not doing was not a choice. We also used the reward incentives. Once she passed a level, she got to pick a treat (we had alot of DQ banana splits). My husband and I supported each other - I was trainer, he was the PACE homework man. There were also a number of the PACE exercises that my dd loved - they were like games. So we always had some of her favorite exercises in the mix for the night. MTC was a bit harder to motivate- it’s not as fun as PACE was.

I’ve got some of those type A attributes in that I feel if you want to do something right, you have to do it yourself. But when we made the decision to once again do the training ourselves, I was very disappointed. Boy was I ready to have someone else do the remediation for a change.

I had found a local IM provider in my state that also provides sound therapy complementing their IM program- so another source that sees connection between two. We have not done IM, but I’m thinking about it for my son. My son has done TLP and it didn’t do anything for his rythym and timing. My dd has done both Tomatis and TLP. TLP is not nearly as powerful as Tomatis. TLP doesn’t do bone conduction or right ear dominance - these were both critical for my dd. My dd has great rythym, timing, coordination, motor etc.

I feel fortunate that we started when we did, however, I really wish we had started at age 4! I don’t feel like were ‘running to catch up’ anymore. Even with spelling. I feel like we are caught up, but if I don’t stay on top of, I feel like we could slip.

When you take a break, it’s REALLY hard to get motivated to start back up again.

Yes, he does have auditory processing problems. I had tried to get information on TLP provider in my area in the past, and was pleasantly surprised that it was now available.

I have to tell you what my son said. I had asked for a break from Neuronet because I was getting burned out. In November, I was cheerleading him through the last set and told him that I had asked for the break. He looked at me and told me “I don’t know why you are tired. I do all the work. You just sit there.”
If they only knew!!!

We’re doing visualization exercises now and some Seeing Stars. I really hadn’t wanted to do anything else but know that my son still has numerous deficits. We are used to doing work and I know it will be difficult to go back to it.

I suppose we all wish we’d caught things earlier.

Beth

Karen,

My son still gets the little words wrong, especially when he is tired. I am quite sure it is a vision thing with him.

You seem to have a good grasp on things. You daughter is lucky!

If your child still has issues at the sensory level, it is always best to address that first. How do you address them. My daughter has speed issues and visual/ spacial processing issues. How do I know if this is a sensory issue? What is LAC test?

I see alot of comments on LMB, PACE/MTC, IM, OT and speech therapy. I don’t see any comments on Davis Dyslexia or the issue of going to a Dr. who prescribes Meclizin and Omega3-6 for Dyslexia. How did you rule these out.

We don’t have a Davis Center near us(so that is a big factor in why we didn’t even consider), but after learning more about Davis - I didn’t feel my dd fit their profile such that the program would have benefited her.

Never heard of the vitamins you mention. We do see an MD Dr. who does our sound therapy. He’s into alot of things, including wholistic kind of approaches. He never mentioned any of the drugs you talk about - but we did do some vitamin type things to address allergy/food sensitivies and saw lots of improvement in increasing dd’s immune system.

On your other post on sensory issues - that’s kind of a hard one to describe. In very simplistic terms, what you need to do is 1st understand what your childs basic issues are from an auditory, visual, motor(including balance), sensory integration perspective. Ways to address an auditory issue may be something like auditory tonal training such as fast forward or sound therapy. Visual could include vision therapy. Motor and SI may include going to an OT, Neuronet, IM, sound therapy. These are just to name a few.

When you have deficits at the sensory level - most kids will have deficits at the next level - the cognitive level. These issues can be things like memory, logic and reasoning, phonological awareness, processing speed.

When we first had an auditory processing diagnosis for my dd - I literally spent HOURS reading about it. I spent hours doing searches and reading various sites on the web. I ordered books. I asked alot of questions and talk to alot of references.

I can tell with his attitude, he is going to be just fine!

Thank you for your compliment! And, thank you for posting on this board. Many of your postings have helped me out. I think we all deserve a pat on the back for getting the services and therapies our children would benefit from.

Seems like there should be a professional who can review the results of a NeuroPsychologist test and makes some suggestions of what should be done first. I am planning to speak to a Cognitive Therapist in a Cognitive Remediation Program. This person deals mostly with rehab patients and I hope she doesn’t laugh at me.
After doing VT and 2 yr. of Orton, my dd can read, but works very hard at it and hates it. She is happier when the letters are spaced apart nicely. All those words close together on a page, upset her, even if the words are easy. Her reading speed and accuracy is about the same whether it is 2nd grade reading or 4th. I would consider Audioblox, but I can’t do it myself and I am looking for a provider. Although, who knows what 6/7 hrs. of week that could cost.
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