Difficulty with problem solving

Beth,

I believe if you do specific exercises for logic and reasoning it will help this area and many others.

I think it is hard to get this specific area remediated because you are not teaching instead they are working to learn. Take heart, this is the higher level stuff that he may just not have been ready for in the past. You have taken him so far, this is the last mile.

You may have to start very slow with easy puzzles that he needs to solve then work up to harder ones. Checkers and then chess also helps. I also use the game mastermind and of course the audiblox logic exercise.

I have seen with my son that he sometimes seems unaware of the fact that there is a logical solution to problems. He almost seems to believe that the world is random and that unless someone tells him he won’t know how to figure things out.
By starting slow you can show him that there is logic to things.

I think it is typical of 9-10 year olds; my 4th grader can not think of a way to remember to bring everything home from school daily and now I charge him a dollar to drive back to school to get what he’s forgotten! My LD 6th grader always works at the kitchen table because he needs help sometimes and he’s gotten used to the disruptions but we have a rule no TV(I manage the environment) until everyone’s homework is done; headphones with soft radio music help him block things out. It is just this year,in 6th grade, that he can come up with alternatives to problems.

I wouldn’t call that a characteristic of LD, per se. It is part of his temperment and make-up to respond this way under stress. If he cannot generate the options, then you need to generate them for him. He’ll need a lot of work to get to the point that he can deal with his own stress appropriately. Look at us as adults. I know when I am highly stressed, I struggle, too. Each person is a little different. Some folks are easier going, some are more flexible, some are more rigid. You might want to help him to see these situations coming and to try to be more proactive.

In all, you are probably in the realm where counselors work, not we teachers so much. You won’t get an overnight cure for this, but you can work toward gradual improvement. That is about all any us can ever accomplish with those areas where we are not as high functioning in our lives. We all seem to have them. As a parent, we do want to be able to fix all the issues so we’ll know tat someday our children will be able to handle all that life presents them.

Beth,

I’d say to a certain extent that is just normal but perhaps complicated by Nathan’s unique make-up. All parents will tell you that siblings will fight over such things. Some kids have better temperaments than others. I’m sure we all know adults who fly off the hnadle at the least little thing. My mother is a little on edge most of the time. When I was talking to the doctor one time about my son, he (dr) said it would be nice if they’d just add Prozac to the water just like flouride. I think that might be a good idea!

Janis

Dear Beth,
I have similar issues with my 10 year old. He also has problems with inferences, sarcasm and anything abstract. He has APD and receptive/expressive language based LD. Sometimes I think that he doesn’t “get” it and won’t/can’t answer because he just dosn’t have words to express himself. I think it may just be too much work for him to try and put probably nebulous thoughts into words that he doesn’t have. He has just been recently diagnosed and I’m trying to get a handle on the scope of his problems.
sincerely, Eileen

I’m an elementary counselor. I have a conflict resolution curriculum called Kelso’s Choice that I absolutely love. It offers “9 choices for solving small problems.” It really gives kids a framework for deciding what to do and empowers them to solve their own problems. It first teaches kids to differentiate between big and small problems. Big problems mean danger, make you feel scared, afraid, frightened, give you that “uh oh” feeling, someone could get hurt or something could get broken— the only thing to do about a big problem is tell an adult. Small problems make you mad, sad, frustrated, annoyed, etc. Asking an adult to solve your small problems is tattling because kids are smart enough and strong enough to solve small problems themselves. (I really make a big deal about that part!) Then, the choices: Ignore it, Walk away, Go to Another Game (e.g. go do your homework in another room!), Make a Deal, Talk it Out, Share and Take Turns, Wait and Cool Off, Apologize (I’m sorry, did you know I’m trying to do my homework here?), Tell Them to Stop. There are pictures to represent each choice. Kids are encouraged to try 3 choices before asking for help. We role-play and talk about various scenarios until they “get it”. Of course you won’t go out and buy an entire curriculum— but you could make up a chart or book with possible choices (what worked in the past when brother was annoying?) and encourage your son to apply them to new situations. E.g., “what kind of deal could you make with your brother?” Maybe he could let brother play with one of his toys if brother would turn off the TV, or choose whatever show he wants later when they are both watching…
Keep helping him talk through his options!

My son’s issues with problem solving are broader than his brother and the TV but I like the idea of teaching kids conflict resolution with an emphasis on problem solving. Do you know anything like this that a parent can purchase? A book maybe?

Beth

I think you are right that logic and reasoning is beneath some of these issues. He just doesn’t think things through very well. We have started working on these skills. We will have to see if it transfers.

Beth

I have to say I am glad to hear he isn’t in a class by himself. He is so different than my older daughter but sometimes it is hard to know what is LD, what is gender, and what is personality.

Beth

It wasn’t the fact that he responded the way he did under stress that bothered me but the fact he couldn’t figure out ways of avoiding the situation, even when no longer it the situation.

It isn’t the first time.

Last year my husband forgot to pick him up from gymnastics. This didn’t become obvious for about 40 minutes since my husband told me he was playing outside when I asked. (Yes, I wondered about his hearing). Anyway, my son did not call or anything. At the same age, we had a mixup with our daughter with our babysitter. She found a phone and called me.

A child who can’t figure out options is a child to worry about.

Beth

I’m kind of with your son on the workspace issue. Here he is, a kid with learning problems. He has worked himself to the bone to get to the point where he can sit down by himself and do demanding homework. He organizes an environment where he feels best able to work. Then someone else interferes with his hard-won independence — and now **he** is both supposed to come up with a new solution, and **he** has to take the blame for wanting just a few rights. How do you feel when you sit down to work on the computer and someone turns on the TV really loud, or makes some other kind of disturbance? Can you tell them to turn it down or off? If you can, why can’t he? I’m not saying that he should have the right to run the whole household, but neither should his younger brother have the right to harass him and chase him from room to room around the house. I’ve seen this happen; one of my students, gifted age 10-11, could not own any books or any breakable belongings at all because his parents refused to limit his destructive toddler sister’s access to his room; this may be an extreme case, but it’s worth thinking about the issue. And a lot of kids I know just do not have a good study area other than the kitchen table — bedroom lights are rarely adequate for reading and writing. As parents, you may need to take a parental role and make rules about undisturbed homework time, or else build/furnish a real study space; save the negotiating skills for social issues.

As far as not phoning, yes, that is serious. I coached my daughter constantly for twelve years about this, and she at least usually called.

Yup, you have to specifically TEACH him options. When he goes somewhere, always have a plan, or 2-3 plans.

Social Stories might be a good way to go.

Beth,
My 8-year-old son has the same problem. I think some of his is due to his expressive langauge difficulties and I’m thinking it may be a characteristic of some dyslexics.

Regardless, his problems with language and certain types of problem solving worry me more than reading. I figure I’m going to continue using Language Wise and having more discussions on these things. But I think actual role-playing may be more helpful. Practicing and finding opportunities where he must problem solve.

By the way, my daughter’s school used Kelso and I really liked it. The school psychologist ran the program. One year my daughter got to be a “Kelso Kid.” She’d get to visit one class a week with a small group of Kelso Kids and they’d do little skits using Kelso principles. She really enjoyed it, and I think the kids got a lot out of the program.

I waited on responding to this post. I know you guys would find this hard to believe,but not only do I sometimes respond impulsivley but you can find me flying off the handle,sometimes:-)

I suppose this comes from an Lder’s perspective,but there are certain things that can not be compromised on. It isn’t so much that flying off the handle occurs but the electricity of background noise that assaults your ears while you are trying to concentrate. Mix that with the frustration of doing a math problem that one minute makes sense and then the other minute whammo,it’s gone,makes no sense what so ever. Yeah,yeah,sometimes I freak out. sometimes it feels like nails on a chalkboard. When I am reading or writing on the puter,and someone talks to me,why? Why ,why,why? PLEEEAAASSSE GOD,just hold on a minute. Give me a minute. You get out of control,you do.

My first reaction was precisely how Victoria explained it. I thought maybe I was the only one,glad to see I wasn’t:-) If I can’t do it my way,if I have to do it everyone elses way anyway,at least let me have the place I need to do it in.( speaking for dyslexics out there)

Now the issue of the calling home. I have to write down our home phone number on a piece of paper,or else, even if they wanted to call,they wouldn’t remember the number! Now your DH hearing him playing outside? Too funny,sounds like my world:-)

I think you are right—I just haven’t thought of it that way. Social stories might provide a scripted way to approach the issues.

Beth

You have a point about work space but the reality is that we have an open plan Florida house. We only have one TV and it is in the family room which is open to the kitchen. Our K son is one of those just on the edge of being ADHD and can be quite annoying. Nathan does not like to read in front of anyone and really does prefer having it quiet so I generally have him work in our room which is the quietest room in the house. Sometimes he works at the kitchen table when I am making dinner. I wasn’t home that night—I was teaching—and so that probably played into it too.

My husband actually managed to forget our son two weeks after the incident I mentioned. (I know-my husband may have more memory problems than my son!!) Nathan called home. So he can be trained on these things but it just worries me what I won’t remember to tell him.

Beth

Get this Socks—I asked him where Nathan was. He told me he was playing in the front yard. The child was still at gymnastics. We couldn’t find him for dinner a half hour later. My husband was about to get in the car to look for him when he suddenly realized he had not picked him up. And if you can believe it, he forgot to pick him up two weeks later. Nathan called that time!!! It is easier to train an LD child than a nonLD husband!!

Beth

It is all the things you might not think to tell them that worries me too. I just started working on Language Wise—do you see any differences? I am using it before working on the same issues in reading. For example, I worked on compare and contrast type games and then the same thing in a reading workbook.

I haven’t done the role playing ect. I guess I can’t stand the idea that there is something else he needs help in!!!

Beth

Beth,

We had this very same problem with our son.

He was just so inflexible. A year ago, he would have done just what Nathan did. Now, he knows he needs quiet and will just move to another room. If he choses to do his homework at the kitchen table, he knows he must move if things get too distracting for him.

We haven’t worked on problem solving skills in any systematic way, but we do play act scenarios when we are driving or at the dinner table, that is, if we think of it. There has also been alot of talk about self-reliance and responsibility for yourself around our house over the past few months. He will be 11 next month and he thinks he is almost a teenager—so he is taking it all on board. He is also very logical, and now that he is mature enough, he realizes he can use his logic.

If he sees me getting fed up he immediately takes a step back and tries to diffuse the situation. He often tells his little sister that it is time for her to listen to me, that I have had enough and it won’t end well for her.

It used to be that if there was a mix up wityh picking him up, I would become frantic with worry–-I could see a kid with no depth perception and no sense of direction wandering throught the streets of Tokyo (busier than NYC and everything is written in Japanese). With alot of practice and talking things through it has become much better. I would drop him off at various spots 1/2 mile from home and tell him I had to run an errand or something and he’d need to walk the rest of the way. First I would make sure he could explain to me how to get home. Now, he walks himself to swimming and gym classes through streets that twist, turn and have no name (not even in Japanese!). Just last Tuesday I was late to pick him up from Aikido and as I was walking out the door, he phoned to say “Mom, where are you?”. That would never have happened a year ago.

When we moved to Tokyo I wrote down our phone # and asked him to learn it. One day his dad asked him if he knew it and he responded- “no one has taught me.” Well, his father was not pleased and gave him an earful about responsibility for his own learning…… As cruel as it sounds, we had him write his phone # 100 times. It wasn’t so much that he didn’t know it but that he was blaming someone else (mom and dad) for not knowing it. I know it sounds awful, but he knows his phone number now and has been able to give it to friends at school. He has even thanked us for making him learn it. .

When we first arrived in Tokyo, I asked him to meet me at the grocery store. I would drive slowly and he could follow on his bike…..VERY STUPID on my part. There was just too much traffic to go slowly. I arrived at the grocery store but he never did. I drove around looking for him for half an hour—already dark at 5:30pm. Tokyo has got to be the most confusing city on earth to drive/ride or even walk around. When I got home, there he was….”Mom,” he said, “why didn’t you show up at the grocery store”….. Well he got there a few minutes late since he took a wrong turn and had to figure it out for himself. He waited a while and decided I wasn’t coming-or had come and gone- and figured out the route home. That was when I decided he could get to swimming and gym on his own…it has done wonders for his confidence.

I know this is kind of long, but I just wanted to let you know that things can get better. It is not perfect and there are still gaps in problem solving—and nothing really comes incidentally…it must be taught. It is hard work and very tiring to teach your child things that should be commom sense or come naturally–Can you really cover everything? Well-you can try and let development and maturity do its part.

Well that is our long story.
Margo

Isn’t it funny that you son developed his logic then he learned how to use it in his every day life. You have done a fine job. Teaching a child independence is the greatest gift.

I know plenty of logical adults who can treat the world as if it is a random place in which they have no control over. It is always somebody elses fault.

I did something similar with my son and going to swim practice a few blocks away when he was just 8. I had a walkie talkie that he held and would tell me when he got to the pool with his coach. He felt so grown up and proud. There was another older boy on our block, you know the type, a kid that was too cool to hang around a younger kid like my son. He is a nice kid but just following what is a typical social thing kids do. He used to walk home with my son. I think he accepted my son as being older because he saw him doing something only older kids do. My son felt great about that.

nt

another reason why I like teaching kids to recognize a “big” problem. Kids learn to trust their own body cues— if they feel afraid or “uh oh” then they know that they must seek adult help immediately.

I’ve been focusing on language for awhile and I think I’m making some very slow, gradual progress (sort of like with reading!). I also try to get him to visualize things to help his memory. I haven’t purchased VV (I’m just using SS right now), but I do plan to get it. I think it will help.

It’s impossible to cover every little instance and possibility. Somehow you have to teach mental flexibility which would help them in applying similar strategies to different things.

common sense? come naturally?

When I was seven years old, I managed to get lost only one block from our house. We had moved there several months or a year previously and I was allowed around the neighbourhood especially to the swimming pool, but I somehow turned wrong from the pool exit and couldn’t see anything familiar. I (still) have no natural sense of direction at all and have to locate my baseline according to known landmarks. This was in Montreal before I learned French; not nearly so bad as Tokyo, but still a language problem. Somehow I wandered up and down the block until I saw a street name I recognized and I got back around to the house.

To this day I still now and then take a bus or subway in the wrong direction, or take the opposite exit off the highway — you have two or three seconds after reading the exit sign to get in the lane or not, and that is not always enough time to visualize the map, mentally align the visualization with the road you’re on, and decide if you want east or west, all the while avoiding city traffic. I have a perfect driving record and have even taught driving safety; I accept the fact that now and then I’m going to realize that I had the mental map upside down and/or mixed up left and right again and I want west and have to backtrack. Backtracking around a block on a local road is safer than panicking or stopping on an expressway!

A lot of my acquaintances find it very strange that a person with my other abilities makes these slip-ups. To quote my brother as a tactless teen, “It’s amazing that someone so smart can be so dumb.” Well, tough luck. I deal with my slip-ups and do very well on average. I decided to accept who I am and not to beat myself over the head about my mistakes. Making me guilt-ridden didn’t make me any better when my parents did it and in fact raised the stress level so high that I got a lot worse; being positive about myself has helped me get a heck of a lot better in many fields, even as an adult throughout my thirties and forties seeing continual improvement (I even sort of have a sense of time now!)

But this goes back to our original issue. All the time I am doing something apparently “easily” and “automatically”, I am frantically problem-solving all the time. While those of you out there with “common sense” that “comes naturally” are just happily rolling along without thinking, I’m devoting huge energy to locating my body in space, focusing my eyes, maintaining balance, controlling fine motor, and so forth. This is why I sympathize with people who have meltdowns when someone trips up their carefully plotted system — yes, socks, I have real classics too.
Sometimes when people give me grief I suggest that they should come up the hill with me and we will both ski down with a patch over our left eye and zero depth perception. Won’t bother me, that’s my life. (It took ten years and more to learn to ski well, but I did it.) After you try it, then talk to me. And if you have a meltdown while wearing an eye patch for an hour, you can compliment me on the fact that despite everything, I do *not* have a meltdown every hour or even every day.
So what do you do when you have problem-solved and you have found a solution, and someone else walks all over it and tells you that you have to problem-solve? In my case, this catch-22 is where the meltdowns come. That’s why I always try to think twice about a situation.

well put:-) I keep telling em,it’s like Always having to go the long way home. Not short cuts,not ever.

Hmm,has he been tested?? LOL I promise not to tell him,if you promise not to tell my seriously ld husband that I don’t trust him when he tells me” just leave it on the table,I’ll remember to take it”. Right..

I was a little worried about my last post right after I sent it. I hope I didn’t offend anyone or sound too much like I don’t sympathize or understand. I know it takes huge amounts of mental energy for him just to make it through the day in one piece.

I too do not have a great sense of direction nor does my husband—so it is just not in the genes- but it hasn’t stopped us from going anywhere or doing anything. I don’t want it to limit my son. He won’t develop a sense of direction, but he needed to at least develop a strategy for not having one—like using landmarks, not panicking, talking himself through it, etc. It interesting how careful he is. Walking home from a friends house–he will stop many times, look around and assess where he is. He is not panicked, just figuring it all out. But, it didn’t come naturally, I had to teach him to do this. So, I am not teaching common sense, but strategies to deal with very real problems.

He is in a place where he can say “gee I have a poor sense of direction and that just means I have to deal with this in a different way”. He doesn’t beat himself up for making mistakes and he is beginnig to look for alternative strategies. But, first, he didn’t recognize he had a certain difficulty, then he denied it, then he recognized it but couldn’t figure out how to deal with it. Now, he actually identifies his areas of difficulty and tries to figure out how to get around them. And that is very positive for us and pretty good for any 10 year old.

We still have the occasional meltdown, but they have become very rare. In fact, I really can’t remember the last one–but I am sure there was one. Mostly, I think I changed my way of dealing with him. I went from trying to get him to do it the “right” way to helping him come up with ways he could actually use. This of course goes to the root of teaching LD kids–doing it in a way they find meaningful. I paid a lot of lipservice to the idea of teaching differently, but didn’t really know what it meant. It also seemed no matter what method I chose, it didn’t matter. Now, within a few minutes I can usually figure out a way to teach him and for him to understand. We have both grown quite a bit in the past few years.

Well that’s it. Again, I apologize if my earlier post touched a nerve.

Ciao,
Margo

Wow! I don’t think I could do this. I’d have to be hidden behind a tree or something watching my son walk home.

I wouldn’t trust my husband either!!!! I think his memory issues are mostly stress/middle age induced. My husband just switched jobs but had one with a bear of a boss. His own mother commented to me while visiting that he doesn’t pay attention when people are talking to him!!!

Or at least that has been my explanation. If things don’t improve, well Terri Bellis talks about middle age APD…..and my husband doesn’t like back ground noise these days….

Beth

I was wondering how your year was going, and what progress your son is making.

I think it takes alot of understanding to really get a feel for what your child can and can’t handle.

I generally don’t force him to do anything. He really is a go getter and wants to try, even if he occasionally fails. I had done some work with his visual spatial issues and I don’t think he could find his way before we remediated that particular problem. I am a visual spatial mess. I must confess to not learning how to drive until I was 30. I just couldn’t parallel park. I lived in Manhattan which was another reason. My visual spatial skills combined with taxi drivers would have been a major problem.

I still can’t draw. My son can now draw better than me. We have a good friend who draws really well and he has taught him.

I really have learned to let him be my guide on to understanding what he can and can’t handle, within reason, of course. I have tried to work on his underlying issues so that practical things can be done without as much effort.

I also try to be pretty consistant about what is expected. He doesn’t get expectations from left field.

He’s turning 9 soon, and he also wants to step up to new responsibilities. Its going to be slow going , but we’ll get there. Its both a good and bad thing that his 6 year old sister is relatively much more independent for her age. It spurs him on. But he can’t always control what he’s able to do …

I think the bottom line is how disabled you are in some areas. For some people, what you are describing would not be possible. Personally, I was encouraged by your story of your son navigating Toyko. I once was in Belgrade and could not even decipher the signs. Getting lost is quite unnerving when the signs are just random pen marks to you. I think to get an even moderately disabled child able to navigate such a city is quite an accomplishment—for you as well as him. His ease at figuring out how to ascertain what options he has is a skill that will serve him for life.

And if I end up in Toyko, I would want you to teach me how to navigate!

Beth

My son is a year older and in the last 6 months I have seen real growth. I used to have to stand over him every second when he did his chores. Now he can do things independently. It is an amazing change.

Now he isn’t quite as independent with school work—so I may be going to college too— “on the Bahamas”, as he says!!!

Beth

I recently got divorced from a guy who forgot things, lost things, forgot plans, went to check his email and ended up spending ten hours playing computer games, became extremely angry about any kind of noise, became extremely angry about any kind of change in his environment even for the better — and none of this was related in any way to him, it was all other people who had no respect for him. Middle-age APD you say?

My husband is not that bad. Some people are just difficult. Still, you might find the book “When the Brain Can’t Hear” by Teri Bellis interesting. She has a discussion of adult onset APD. Men tend to have trouble with noise and women (after menopause) more with decoding emotional content.

Beth

After years and years and decades of working on my own weird sensory things, I’ve finally gotten a little better at reading emotional content. DON’T tell me I’m going to lose it again!

You made me laugh!!! I won’t tell you that you will lose it—but it seems that some women do.

Beth

luckily Tokyo “feels” safer in that child predators are not as much of a concern. Last time I was in Japan I remember reading an article about the numbers of young children taking several different subway routes to get to their elementary schools— one parent told her child to stand the whole way because if she sat down she would fall asleep and miss her stop. Oh, if that were our only concern!

Anyway, I asked Nathan what he could have done differently. He said, “asked Alex to turn the TV off.” I said that was true but what if he wouldn’t (the most likely scenario). He couldn’t think of anything else. I tried to get him to see that he could move somewhere else. He told me he likes the kitchen table. I told him that is fine but if the TV is on and you are already in a bad mood, you know it will annoy you.

Mine are 12 and 5. The older one is not allowed any viewing time unless all the homework is done. The younger one can watch videos on an unrestricted basis. I make the younger one use headphones during homework time, because yes, my eldest works best at the kitchen table too. I don’t see why my elder kid should WORK in a place that makes her uncomfortable just so my younger kid can PLAY in a place that makes her comfortable. Work - anybody’s work, whether it is my child’s or my own takes precedence over play - anybody’s play, whether it is my child’s or my own.

Never thought of head phones—wonder if they would work with our rather dated TV.

Beth

Another option for older kids is to turn on the closed captioning (not an option with an older TV, I know) and have them “read” the show.

You found it? Where?

Let’s see, maybe it was in the cabbage patch … no, hiding under the back steps … in the box, not that box, the other one … somewhere with the six pairs of lost scissors … .fifth bookcase from the left second shelf from the top the big book with the shiny blue cover …

What I noticed is that when I first met him he was sometimes moderately difficult, and that’s OK because I can be difficult myself sometimes and you need someone who can balance you. But he went from being sometimes moderately difficult to being extremely difficult almost all of the time. In other words it was not just the actions but the ever-increasing frequency and severity that got to me. Some of his behaviours sound a lot like some of the things I see being discussed here. I did get really worried and got so stressed I got pretty messed up myself.