Angry at being LD

That is not the way they are telling the story so I really appreciate your input.

Thanks so much.

Beth

PT,

I just want you to know that I do understand what you are meaning. I realize that most jobs require multiple areas of neuro-developmental function. People who have more problem areas find the job field much more restrictive. I suppose I come to the defense of Dr. Levine because he just can’t be an expert on every area or have a pat answer for everyone! But I think he has contributed so much to our understanding of underlying deficits that schools NEVER get into. I certainly recognised some of my own weaknesses as I read the book.

One point that you made I think is very true, and Dr. L even says it in his book. A team approach to diagnosis is so valuable because each individual evaluator looks at a person through the eyes of thier own area of expertise…a SLP will look at the language disorder, the LD specialist will be focused on the reading or other academic disorder, the audiologist will be focused on the underlying auditory processing disorder, and all of this may be about the same child. Recommendations for remediation may be disjointed if each of these people gives separate suggestions without seeing the whole of the testing. And this is not even including the knowledge that a neuro-psych might turn up like memory and other problems. The vast majority of children never receive a thorough team coordinated evaluation. So I do support Dr. Levine’s concept of evaluation centers where this approach would be used. Then hopefully, specific recommendations for remediation could be included for that particular child.

Janis

Let’s hope so. This week ds had to memorize a bunch of lines in a play they are doing. The teacher was surprised at how easily he memorized his lines. “Well” I said, ” he does have superior auditory memory.” I’m thinking to myself - he may be dyslexic but that doesn’t mean he can’t do anything! My son said to me, “maybe next year at my new school they won’t be surprised by how smart I am..”

Back to the emotional side of LD- When we were touring the LD school, the head of admissions specifically said they were not going to be turned off by a neuropsych report that described an LD kid as anxious or angry. She said they view that as a normal response, and would be more worried about a kid that doesn’t have those feelings. I suspect its a cyclical thing - the anger comes and goes.

PT,
Did the state Voc. Rehab offer to help retrain your skills or fund retraining? Basically, were they any help at finding or helping you to find an approriate job placement. Thanks for responding

I think you hit upon a major factor in kids self esteem and belief in themself. They need to see their virtues. They need to see that the people around them see them as well.

That was the biggest problem with the sped class he was in. They just did not see his positive side. All the negatives were highlighted with a big giant spot light. He was anxious and abusive to his brother while in that class.

The best way for me to describe then and now is through the eyes of my 4 year old. We have a big easel where I ask him to draw anything he wants. During that dark time he drew the same picture every time. He would draw Mommy, Daddy, Chis and himself. He would say, “This is Chris hitting me. This is Mommy telling Chris to go upstairs to his room. This is Chris going upstairs. This is Chris calling down to ask if he can come down yet.”

I asked him to draw a picture the other day and he drew a picture of the family talking, eating dinner.
The right school situation can really make a difference. I didn’t even realize all of this until Beth brought this up. I think my selective memory had me forgetting certain aspects of those dark days.

Hi Janis,

You said:
>
No problem and I definitely agree with you that he has contributed alot to our understanding of the deficits that are typically part of LD. Alot of private clinicians don’t even get into what Dr. Levine covers.

I agree with you that he can’t be an expert in every area. But I sure wish somebody would take an interest in adult issues as that has been one of my pet peeves. Need to save that for another thread.

You also said:
<>

Gosh, I hadn’t realized that if an evaluation is done through the school, that is what kids go through. Terrible. Hopefully, Dr Levine’s ideas of evaluation centers will come to fruition.

By the way, that is what it was like for me going through the state voc rehab department. Each specialist had their own report but to steal your word, they were disjointed because no one was looking at the big picture. The again, the single private clinician I saw wasn’t either.

All I can say is thank goodness for sites like this and similar ones. I definitely echo your sentiments about usefuly this site has been.

PT

PT,
Did the state Voc. Rehab offer to help retrain your skills or fund retraining? Basically, were they any help at finding or helping you to find an approriate job placement. Thanks for responding

Hi RS,

Thanks for asking.

During my last period of unemployment in 96, I found a job on my own. Voc rehab was of no use in that area.

I was eligible for reading remediation. My 1st choice was a place where I would have received V&V tutoring. But for some reason, they only offered sessions in early afternoons. Since I was working full time and hadn’t yet disclosed my LD, that was not doable since these sessions were more than once per week. Since I had to go to a vendor that was on the approved list of the state voc rehab department, finding a tutor who was certified in the V&V method was not an option. I never understood previously why people hated the government so much but this experience provided me that understanding.

I did end up going to another well known place but they didn’t use V&V and it was not helpful.

Currently, voc rehab has been of no use. Since I already have a BS degree, it is my understanding that they would not fund a master’s program. I also have too much money in my savings account to qualify for any remediations right now.

To be honest, the office I deal with means well but they are severely understaffed and really have no clue what LD is all about. They kept suggesting that I attend their job hunter’s club even when I asked for help in areas that had nothing to do with finding a job. It’s like that is all they know to suggest.

Wish I could have provided a more positive answer.

PT

What is V & V tutoring? I hope things work out for you. Don’t give up hope, I sense discouragement in your writing.

Hi Beth,

You hit the nail on the head about Levine and strengths. Obviously, from the posts I have written both disagreeing with and praising him, like you, I alternate between being mad at Dr. Levine and craving his positive attitude.

I think I have a similar profile to your son in that I don’t have the visual spatial strengths either plus I have weak reading skills. I wish I could tell you not to worry about your son but you have every reason to be concerned.

But I just have the feeling that the work you are doing with him is going to pay off. Also, in a couple of years, it is important to start thinking about his transition plan even before the schools are required to put one into place. Even if he wants to go to college, use various methods to get him thinking about possible careers. Alot of people don’t realize this but having various learning disabilities affects the career planning process big time so that’s why I making this point.

Let me know what you think of Dr. Levine’s book.

PT

<>

Hi RS,

V&V is the acronym for the Lindmood Bell Program of Visualization and Verbalization. Hope I have that in the right order. It teaches a person to use imagery and visualization while reading various passages.

Thanks for your encouragement and you are quite perceptive as I have been pretty discouraged these last few days. Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing as I have come to realize how many gaps I have in the reading process. I thought that I might just need V&V tutoring due to memory problems but I now realize that fluency issues are a major problem. I can read words but it is a slow process due to not automatically decoding the words.

I knew I couldn’t afford tutoring but I was hoping that if I did enough work on my own, when I was finally able to afford help, my reading skills might improve to the point where more career options would be open to me. Probably, my expectations were unrealistic but gosh, I am so tired of working in jobs beneath my intellectual capability. I am also frustrated that I can’t afford tutoring as I have to use my savings to support myself until I find a job. Like Beth’s son, I don’t have strong visual spatial skills that would let me enter a design type of career.

Anyway, I know that staying discouraged is not going to turn this around for me and I have to find a way to deal with all of this. So no, I will not give up hope. Again, thanks for your support.

PT

You know what, PT? Even though you are having some hard times, you do give us some hope that some of our kids will make it through college! That is an outstanding accomplishment for someone with a learning disability in reading. I really think something liek the week long intensive program at Phono-Graphix would be very helpful to you. Do you know anyone near Orlando who you could stay with for a week? If you could just get some heavy-duty help in an effective method, I’d bet you’d make great progress. What is your degree in?

janis

My daughter is 8. She has major decoding difficulties despite her high IQ. Went through part of the Linda Mood Bell (I know it as LiPS) program. In the beginning she did well, but the advanced phonics strategies was too much of a drain on her working memory. She is seeing a private speech/reading therapist who uses “Phono Graphixs” approach by Read America.($45.00 once a week). She has made good progress with this approach. I have seen this textbook in Barnes and Nobel Book Stores but not the workbooks.

RS, I don’t know if you read my post to PT yet, but I had just replied and recommended Phono-Graphix to him/her(?) ! I am so glad to hear your daughter is doing well with it!

Janis

Janis wrote:
>
> You know what, PT? Even though you are having some hard
> times, you do give us some hope that some of our kids will
> make it through college! That is an outstanding
> accomplishment for someone with a learning disability in
> reading. I really think something liek the week long
> intensive program at Phono-Graphix would be very helpful to
> you. Do you know anyone near Orlando who you could stay with
> for a week? If you could just get some heavy-duty help in an
> effective method, I’d bet you’d make great progress. What is
> your degree in?
>
> janis

Hi Janis,

Unfortunately, I don’t know anyone who lives in Orlando although it would sure be nice to go there. Is Phono-Graphix still indicated even though I can decode most words orally? It is the rapid automatic part I can’t do as I do word for word reading and sound out every word. I also do not hear the sounds that make up words. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that. If you still think the book would be helpful, then I definitely can take a look at it.

My degree is in recreation and one suggestion has been recreation therapy. But
no matter how hard I try, that has never interested me.

I do have some ideas I need to try. They are somewhat along the lines of the suggestions found in “What Color is Your Parachute” but not completely. Kind of scarey to not have a complete map. Then again, what do I have to lose?

I am glad I gave you hope that some of the kids will make it through college. That is my motivation not to stay discouraged because I don’t want the parents on this board to feel that way.

Gosh, even though I was feeling discouraged about my reading, I still have learned quite a bit about the process and have made some improvements. Back in my college days, I had no clue and was literally memorizing stuff without having any idea as to what I was reading. And that was without accomodations.

Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

PT

RS wrote:
>
> My daughter is 8. She has major decoding difficulties despite
> her high IQ. Went through part of the Linda Mood Bell (I
> know it as LiPS) program. In the beginning she did well, but
> the advanced phonics strategies was too much of a drain on
> her working memory. She is seeing a private speech/reading
> therapist who uses “Phono Graphixs” approach by Read
> America.($45.00 once a week). She has made good progress with
> this approach. I have seen this textbook in Barnes and Nobel
> Book Stores but not the workbooks.

Thanks RS. I will take a look at this book.

PT

PT,

The Phono-Graphix would help your hearing the sounds (blending and segmenting them in words) and it would also give you the practice for the decoding to become automatic. That is where many people have a problem. They may learn the sounds, but they cannot process them rapidly enough to get any meaning from what they read. It is entirely possible that if your decoding became automatic, you might not even need Lindamood-Bell Visualizing and Verbalizing, because your comprehension might not even be a problem then.

I guess the demand for recreation degrees will vary according to the area in which you live. Around here, the YMCA and public recreation department would be the two main employers seeking your degree. But I am sure those jobs are fairly few and far between unless you live somewhere like FL.

Janis

PT,

The name of the book is “Reading Reflex” by Carmen and Geoffrey McGuinness.

Janis

The other day my son was telling everyone that I think he’s blind and can’t hear (because of vision therapy and me questioning him about his hearing). I know there are times he tells me he’s stupid and he’s angry with himself about his memory. But I always try to remind him about the things he’s good at (which, of course, is not what he’d rather be good at! Like reading and remembering…). I can understand his anger over all of this. And he has a right to experience anger and frustration.

But really, there are some positives…like when you understand a weakness, you can put work and effort into learning ways to strengthen or compensate, that’s something to be really proud of. Just dealing with a difficulty and learning to make the best of yourself from it is an accomplishment. One thing that I really admire about my son is he knows how to work REALLY hard at something. That’s an important lesson in life. Because oftentimes it’s not how “smart” you are, but how hard you work.

Greetings All,

Having dealt with the majority of the issues brought out in this thread, I’m curious about the ages of the children discussed. My dd turned 16 this past Saturday and during the past few months, it’s like she has finally come into her own. She was diagnosed with dyslexia, dysnomia (word retrieval disorder), VPD, APD and ADD. She has LDs in math and written expression. She has done FFW 1&2, IM, PACE, MTC and some NN. She has seen a counselor off/on for low self-esteem issues. I homeschooled her for almost 3yrs but she is now a sophomore at the local public HS. She does utilize the Learning Center one hour daily like a study hall and for test taking but otherwise is in the regular classroom (Biology, Algebra, Lit 2, World History, sculpting, computers; NO foreign language). Her social skills have improved dramatically this year and she had about 20 kids come to her birthday party (in the past maybe 1 or 2 would show).

I guess my reason for posting is two-fold. One, to celebrate my daughter’s successes!, and two, to point out that frequently it takes YEARS for all the therapies to be fully integrated with the brain and body’s continued growth and maturation in order to realize all the benefits of the different therapies. Throughout the years, I often lost sight of the fact that my child - and all children - are a work in progress. What you are experiencing now with your children isn’t necessarily what the future holds for them!

Blessings, momo

<>

Hi Janis,

Thank you so much. I have been through endless evaluations and spent a fortune over several years but your post has provided one of the best explantions of where my problem areas are and what might be helpful.

As you can tell from my previous posts, I pretty much had the same suspicians this weekend but it is such a relief that someone like you confirmed what I was thinking. What make it even worse was not exactly understanding what I needed to do about it. Like Linda F said, there doesn’t seem to be a website that specifies the problem areas and the specific remediations.

Since P&G has a reputation for working quickly, I feel so much more hopeful, even if I still feel I can’t afford the tutoring for now. I saw your other post in which you mentioned the book and I will take a look at that. Thanks for mentioning it. I also remember these folks having a website so I will do my typical Google search and find it.

There are quite a few recreation centers where I live. But I really did try that route and found it wasn’t for me.

Again, I greatly appreciate your help.

PT

Thanks for reminding us. I know a number of people on this thread have elementary aged children. It is hard sometimes to not think things will get worse.

Beth

Karen,

Boy, if you ever needed to know whether you are doing the right thing, the play incident sure let you know. My heart broke when I read it. He just wants out of the box his teacher has put him in.

Beth

My son is about to turn 9. And he’s been a work in progress since age 4. Many things have come together in this past year, but I am especially glad to hear about your daughter’s social life, as that continues to be an area of concern for us. Many teachers and therapists along the way have said he’ll be a great adult - its just getting there that’s tough. Thanks!

Congratulations to you and your daughter momo. I have a 14 year old son who was identified as at risk starting at age 4. He was kept in an inclusion type setting from pre-K until end of 6th. In 7th and 8th grade he was so far behind he was placed in self contained classes for reading, writing, and math. This on top of the work we did with him at home starting at age 4 when he was first identified. We did not see significant progress with him until he was placed in the self contained model. Today he is a freshman in high school and other then a reading skills class in all regular ed classes. 1st semester he got by with a C+ average and so far this quarter he has a B+ average. He is so much happier now and more self confident. The team of teachers who worked with him in 7th and 8th grade were a God send, they worked on both his self-esteem and at true remediation. This year he has been using the LeapFrog IQuest to help prepare him for the pre-SAT he has to take as a junior. He says he has lots of catching up to do if he wants to go to college, especially with his vocab. It is as if when he turned 14 someone went and “turned the light on.” I also have a son who will be 11 in April, he is dx’d PDD-NOS. He has been receiving services since he was 22 months old and is starting to grow by leaps and bounds also. So it seems it takes years for us to notice a big difference.

Momo - that is great news! I had been wondering how you and your dd were doing? Gives us all a ray of hope and sunshine. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Momo,

My son is 9. It is great to hear about your success. My son has come very far already. Looking back I think half of his success was luck, we found the exact programs that fit his exact deficits.

He too is still a work in progress.

Thanks for sharing your story.

I suspect that Dr. LEvine is trying to drive home the idea that — at least in theory — we get to choose our jobs, whereas we are often *stuck* in school systems and it’s the nature of the systems to demand everything.
You’re right, though — the reality of the job market is that LD issues still smack you in the face when you least expect it, or sit and nag at you every day…

Karen, Beth and others,

I think Karen’s son just said what all our children experienced one day or another- that they are often treated as they are not as smart as their friends… The degree might vary but it is ever present theme in classroom.

Last X-mas my son said that he wishes his sister (who is 2 only) to not have reading problems as his… I am positive that a year ago, he would not have been able to verbalize such statement- he was in such a messy emotional state he didn’t mentione his reading problems in any conversation.

Ewa

Also, One of Levine’s points that has really stayed with me since I heard it is that adults are allowed to specialize. In fact we want the people we hire to be specialists whether its our doctor, accountant, hairdresser, mechanic…etc. But children are expected to be well rounded and achieve in all areas.

Ewa, You should be so proud of him - being able to talk about it is so healthy I think. I wonder if being at a special school has helped him accept his reading problem. I know our new school really makes a point of having the kids understand and accept their LD as a means to being able to work with /around it.

Karen,

I am positive that the school has made a HUGE difference. He is a different child and as you know he did not want to go to this new school.

I am in contact with a teacher who runs a small school for dyslexic children and she had told me that often school districts do not realize that such schools are not only about teaching reading. They are also about being with other children experiencing similar problems and as you said coming to accept the reality of it.…

I should tell you not once did we regret that we had made this choice…. I am so grateful that we could have and that the school district agreed with us….

Ewa

Congratulations to both of you. I remember sitting on the homeschool/school fence and reading your posts.

Well done

I wish the best for you, PT. Let us know what happens.

Janis

Beth,

I was also quite disappointed about Levine “recipe” relying on “strengths”… The truth of a matter is that superior spatial/visual skills are of little help in elementary school. Sure it does not hurt to have them but language disability combined with slow processing and ADD will certainly create a child that “appears not so smart” in daily school activities. I did not find much of hope/help in reading his book (although I should say I did not read it VERY carefully).

I like his approach to evaluating individual skills but, as Linda F pointed out, there is little for parents in terms of approaching the remediation process. I like Jerome Rosener’s (?) book much more for that matter.

My son strongest points are his problem solving skills (once he gets what the problem is- and this is not always the case since he needs repetition, rephrasing and clarifications), and creativity. There is not much in elementary school where he could shine besides visual arts.

Ewa

I am sort of laughing at myself coming to the rescue of Dr. Levine again :-), but I think the point of the book is to instruct people on the 8 neuro-developmental profiles and that almost everyone has strengths and weaknesses in something (not necessarily academic)! In every section, he clearly says that remediation should be obtained when appropriate. At the same time, he says to strengthen the strengths. So, let the child have the best bug collection in town, or whatever can make him feel like he has accomplished something and has expertise in it. It simply would have been beyond the possible scope of this book to go into detail on remediation in such diverse areas as language, motor skills, memory, attention, etc. Each of those areas in relation to remediation is another book in itself! Dr Levine is on the diagnostic end of things. A SLP would have to write the remediation book on language disorders and a specialist hopefully would write the remediation book of each other area (and of course, most already have done so). But one good thing about this book is that he gives practical suggestions to parents to help improve various skills in daily life.

Janis

Greetings,

Thanks for the kind congratulations! We are very happy to have finally made it to this point.

Blessings, momo

mmm, I believe homeschooling was a major contributor to my dd’s success but I know it’s not for everyone. What did you decide to do?

Janis wrote:
>
At the same time, he says to strengthen the
> strengths. So, let the child have the best bug collection in
> town, or whatever can make him feel like he has accomplished
> something and has expertise in it. It simply would have been
> beyond the possible scope of this book to go into detail on
> remediation in such diverse areas as language, motor skills,
> memory, attention, etc. >>

Since I was the troublemaker who started the thread disagreeing with Dr. Levine, let me expand on what Janis said. Sally Smith, in one of her books on learning disabilities, discusses a situation where this one kid with LD loved cars.
The parents did everything possible to encourage that interest by exposing the child to any activities that had something to do with cars. As a result, he ended up starting an auto repair shop.

Using Janis’s example, perhaps parents could do the same thing with kids who liked bugs. So when it is time for transition planning, whether it is for college or a job (you all are going to get an early start on this right?), and if the child still has this interest, then perhaps you can brainstorm with him/her how to use it for either going to college or finding a job. Even if the interest moves away from bugs, you never know what types of other interests that may spark.

A speech pathologist named Steve Dykstra, who posts on NLDline, also stresses constantly the need to focus on a child’s strengths. He calls NLD a disorder of confidence and I think that would be applicable to almost all LDs. He feels the IEP doesn’t help matters by only focusing on a kid’s weaknesses. A perfect analogy he uses is to ask folks, how they would feel if they had to work in a job where every day they had use all of their weaknesses. It would be intolerable so why should kids be expected to go through this.

Of course, there are realities to deal with but I just wanted to point out how other LD professionals share Mel Levine’s views in some ways. I think I was also mad at Dr. Levine for what I know is an irrational reason. It frustrates me greatly that there are not enough professionals who are taking an interest in Adults LD issues. So when someone like him made a comment on an adult issue and wasn’t even working with adults, obviously, it hit my hot button big time. But the more I think about how so many LD professionals I saw missed my reading problems, the more I realize how important someone like Dr. Levine is and why I hope his ideas on looking at the whole person are taken more seriously in the future.

PT

Great points, PT. In really thinking about why I am defending Dr. Levine, I think what I attracts me to him the most is the fact that he sees real value in all kids. He does not see this defective, disordered person, he sees a person who is probably crushed in self-esteem and makes them see that they have strengths and potential. If I were you, I’d be a little resentful, too, that there was not someone who could have understood your reading problem and found the keys to remediate it while you are very young. So those few kids who have parents who are educated enough to even know about the Dr. Levines of the world can access good evaluations and subsequently effective remediation (or at least improvement and understanding) before the kids suffer years of frustration or failure. Since not everything can be remediated, he has the part about developing strengths, plus it’s a self-esteem booster.

I think we all have seen teachers who really resent having to deal with kids with special needs and who make their lives miserable, so it is just refreshing to me to see someone who clearly feels that ALL kids have value and can succeed in something in this life. Half the battle is helping the kids believe this.

Janis

I divide the teacher’s we’ve had into 2 camps : the ones who have gotten religion from Mel Levine, and the ones that haven’t. I don’t think he has all the answers, but if a teacher “gets” his message it can make all the difference to your child. My son’s 2nd grade teachers, after attending a levine workshop, quoted him to me. Like “if I teach all the kids the same I’m really treating them different because they are all different..” This woman didn’t think twice about modifying a classroom routine to make the work more accessible to my son.

Karen,

That’s pretty true here, too. Because I live in NC, many systems have sent representatives to Schools Attuned training (for regular ed. in neuro-developmental profiles and ways to teach them all). Last year, when Levine was going to be on TV, I mentioned it with anticipation to our school guidance counselor, who is a very caring person. She had a very negative reaction. She said the Schools Attuned business was terrible or undoable (I don’t remember the specific complaints). This was sad to me because I thought if anyone would have been in favor, it would have been her. But the real fact is, it is EASIER for a teacher to teach all kids exactly the same. That is why whole language is popular.. all the kids are in one big reading group…EASIER for the teacher!

The very best teachers will go out of thier way to accommodate all learning styles. They will not see unfairness in giving some kids different assignments than others. It is hard work to do this. But the teachers who really understand the learning process and care about children will be able to do this. Sadly, I’m not sure there are many out there.

Janis

I am with you on this point. They either get it or they don’t. Two groups right down the middle. Some never went for any training but just get it. They see the kids for all they are and don’t just focus on negatives. That is why I hate labels. I think the nonLeviners are the ones that love labels. It is easier to stick a kid in a box and say, “It isn’t my fault, the child has X and just can’t learn.”