Does performance of school district matter?

I have an opinion on this which may be quite different from others. It is solely based on my experience.

I have my son at one of the top performing school districts in my state as measured by the standardized tests. I had him classified at the end of first. There was no way he was not going to be classified he was way behind in every area and could not read.

I think the regular and the sped system is very separate and not all that equal. Sped kids over here, regular ed over there and those two trains shall not meet.

The sped kids are placed in a regular ed class with two teachers. The sped teacher gets the sped kids and the regular ed teacher get the regular ed kids. The few times the regular ed teacher wanted to say something in support of my child’s abilities she was squashed down by the sped teacher who had ulitimate control of what he would and would not do. I have found that the sped teachers (in my district this is not a slam to sped teachers in general and the ones on this board are the cream of the crop) are subpar. They seem burned out, inflexible and unwilling to consider the whole child. The regular ed teachers are amazing. So, it is the same district but two totally different experiences from regular ed and sped.

I honestly believe that sped is about placing the child out of the testing pool. It isn’t about remediation of deficits. Not by a long shot.

In a way it has been a blessing in disguise. I want my son to be with the regular ed teachers and he wants to be in the regular ed classes so it has motivated us both to work really hard at remediation of his specific underlying deficits.
He will do anything to avoid being placed with a sped teacher again.

I think the regular ed remediation programs are also better. They have many programs that focus on addressing specific areas of weakness like writing or math. I believe these are as good as they are because the regular ed kids are what the school is graded on.

So now that my son is in a regular ed class he is in a very good school district.

To some degree, an area that has less need for special ed may have more physical space available and be more willing to address borderline kids.
And sp ed groups will be smaller. In general, that is going to be the higher socio-economic areas which have better performing schools(of course we are upper middle class and have a special needs kiddo but you know what Im saying)

OTOH, the area we just moved to has a huge special ed population and, quite frankly, Im far more impressed with the special ed teachers here. Our last school, the special ed folks were nice but I always felt I knew more about special ed than they did( I never received subtest scores and his teacher confessed she didnt know anything about what they meant anyway)

Here, I have been impressed with the breadth of knowledge. I received a detailed written and oral report on all testing done and learned a ton!

I guess, the more special ed kids they see, the more they learn. If you are in an area with few and far between, a teacher just isnt going to be able to say “Jon reminds me of Jeff;this worked with Jeff-lets try X’ or “I know a family that used IM-would you be willing to try?”

Hmmm. That’s interesting. In my state (MA) SPED kids are NOT exempted from the state MCAS testing. While there are a (very) few accomodations available to kids who need them, (scribe, quiet setting, probably a few others I’m not aware of… extended time is not needed as MCAS is not untimed for everyone) almost all kids who are not MR are included in testing. There has to be a COMPELLING reason for them not to be tested, which takes state approval, and then an alternative testing method must be devised. Almost all kids, SPED or not, also take the Stanford.

Fortunately, our SPED department sounds light years ahead of yours as well. We’ve had _mostly_ positive experiences, with one bad SPED teacher in 7 years. (who, interestingly, didn’t have his contract renewed the next year) Our district fortunately has embraced the idea that SPED is a service, not a place. Children are included where possible, pulled out to resource when it makes sense, or in a self contained classroom when absolutely necessary.

In inclusion classrooms, of which there are many, the general ed teacher is still the CLASSROOM teacher. The SPED teacher is there to co-teach, and modify as necessary. While they obviously are primarily responsibile for the children on their caseload, they also help other children whether they are on ed plans or not. Often, if they are working on a specific skill with a SPED child, they will pull other children who could benefit from the same work into a small group so that the SPED child isn’t singled out. My older son, who has been on an IEP since kindergarten, made it through 4th grade before he realized that his education was in any way different than anyone else’s.

My younger, 4th grade son, who is not on an ed plan, has also always been in inclusion classrooms. He has a litle boy with Downs Syndrome sitting behind him. This child is non-verbal, and is obviously pulled out during academic periods for work on his specific needs. But he is very much a part of the class, and is there with his full-time aide as much of the day as is feasible. The other kids look out for him, and have learned basic signing so that they can communicate with him. To me, this is how Special Education SHOULD work.

Karen

I’d have a whole lot more money in my pocket if I lived in your school district instead of mine!!

Beth

Don’t kid yourself. We still spend plenty between testing, therapies and advocates. ;-)

Karen

I live in one of those ‘better’ school districts. Our school scores in the very high range on state profiency tests.

Are they better equiped or more willing to help? It’s not been my experience. I believe our school’s scores are high, because we live in a middle to upper-middle class neighborhood. Families in my neighborhood are able to pay for outside tutoring or remediation on their own. The school doesn’t ‘have’ to fund anything but the absolute basic. They are rarely challenged to do so.

From an LD perspective, my school is probably less equiped and less willing to help (because they have no staff) than a school who potentially would have a slightly higher ratio of LD kids? I don’t know - that’s just my observation.

You really need to research the school (not just the district) and find out what kind of programs they use, how many kids they support, how many LD teachers do they have per school population etc.

I live in one of those ‘better’ school districts. Our school scores in the very high range on state profiency tests.

Are they better equiped or more willing to help? It’s not been my experience. I believe our school’s scores are high, because we live in a middle to upper-middle class neighborhood. Families in my neighborhood are able to pay for outside tutoring or remediation on their own. The school doesn’t ‘have’ to fund anything but the absolute basic. They are rarely challenged to do so.

From an LD perspective, my school is probably less equiped and less willing to help (because they have no staff) than a school who potentially would have a slightly higher ratio of LD kids? I don’t know - that’s just my observation.

You really need to research the school (not just the district) and find out what kind of programs they use, how many kids they support, how many LD teachers do they have per school population etc.

There are few generalizations to make regarding school districts that are safe to make. A ‘better’ district might not do any better a job for your LD child. And they might not even accept the testing done by another district. The only safe generalization about school districts I know is they don’t do things to keep their reputation up. “Good” districts tend to take their reputation for granted.

I’m never concerned about the proficiency tests and their results. I do get concerned about the quality of a student’s day. Do you like children like their school district for the most part?

If you have time, you can do this. You can visit other school districts and see if you like them better. You can find out which district is doing better than the others on the proficiency tests as those are important to you.

Absolutely. There are very few LD kids at our hgh performing school. In three years there have been as many resource teachers and she will be changing again at the end of this year. She doesn’t know if my child is dyslexic and wouldn’t know what to do if he is. I come up with suggestions and the school sometimes looks into them, but everything takes forever going through the district. It’s also not clear about how coordinated all parties are - when I told the resource teacher things suggested by his private ed therapist she was fine with it, but I think it faded over time, and I’m not sure the 1 on 1 in the regular classroom a couple of hours a day is always on the same page as the resource teacher. It is frustrating and stressful.

I’m sure. Guess I just felt a twinge of envy in seeing how sp. ed ought to work. Here there is one option—resource room. There are self contained classrooms but not at his school and my understanding is that even severely LD children don’t fit. I honestly don’t know what they would do with a child like yours who really doesn’t fit the resource model. There is abs. noone who goes into the classroom. There is only one resource teacher and there are 1500 kids at his school. Nathan is doing well enough now that with a carefully chosen teacher he is able to keep up with grade level—for the most part anyway. Two years ago, however, school was just babysitting—he was too far behind to learn anything in the regular classroom.

Beth

I also think a lot has to do with individual teachers. FL schools do not have many resources compared to other states (I used to live in the north so have a comparison). Still, within the same resource constraints, we went from an unlivable situation to much better, although hardly ideal, with the leaving of one resource teacher and the hiring of a different one. I would give the principal credit for the change (and all the trouble I caused didn’t hurt either).

In short, I would hardly say our district is enlightened. I have dealt with the district people and was not impressed. But the local level makes a lot of difference still.

Beth

I’ll tell you what would happen in a school system like yours. Robbie would completely fall apart emotionally. Then, because I’ve learned enough to know the system, they would have the choice of hiring the people needed to meet his needs in house, (and benefit other kids at the same time) or they’d be paying for an out of district placement for him.

It has worked to our benefit that our school system has already learned this lesson with the couple of identified NLD teenagers who were not adequately accommodated in our school system. They are both in outside placements after suicide attempts. They know it, and they know I know it.

Karen

Absolutely. We were told by the neuropsychologist who dx’d Robbie that we’d have good years and bad, based on the teacher(s) we got. She has been absolutely right. In 4th grade, he had a teacher who ws so good that although he benefitted from his SPED teacher, I am convinced he would have had a good year even without an ed plan. Last year, with a really bad classroom teacher, they kept thowing more and more SPED services at him, and things continued to go down hill until we changed him to a new class.

This year, he has an awesome SPED teacher and a pretty good team. He’s got two troublesome teachers, and even with the SPED teacher running interference, his stress level is rising again, and his processing speed/ output is going down. We have a meeting next week to see if we can get things back on track again. It does get more complicated at the middle school level when you have to deal with so many different teachers.

Karen

In my state everyone gets tested. MR gets an alternate test so their results aren’t figured into the school. I’m glad your 4th grade son and his class are experiencing such a wonderful situation with the Downs child - unfortunately this may pass as they reach high school. At the high school level we have a wonderful MR teacher that has a special group that includes her kids and reg. ed. kids. This type of interaction has been wonderful for both groups. They even visit with each other before school at the lockers. It is really neat to see these huge HS boys with their letter jackets and many patches carrying on a conversation with a downs kiddo. Do I think the same thing could/would occur in an academic classroom, no. There is definitely a point at which it does not work.

Of course there’s a point where it is not fair to make a MR child sit through academic classes he has no hope of understanding. Not only that, but it’s a waste of his precious time when he could be learning important life skills. As I said, the Downs child in my son’s class is NOT in the classroom for academics. He receives direct instruction appropriate for him during those times. But there is no reason that he can’t be included in music, art, assemblies, lunch and recess, etc. When it makes SENSE he is included.

BTW, my older son in middle school also participates in an after school inclusion program called “Circle of Friends” While he is one of the higher functioning SPED kids in the group, it is open to all, from the most impaired to those regular ed kids that find themselves socially excluded or even just ignored in the socially pressured environment of middle school. The NT kids and ones like my son are used as mentors for the less able ones.

Karen

I love your description of special education and the services or your son! You are so right when you say that the only thing that makes sense is that he is included! I am the mother of three classified boys and the proud aunt of a little guy with Downs syndrome. He is and has been included throughout preschool and K. He is currently in an in-class support first grade classroom. At the present time, he is FULLY included. He is learning math in the Chicago Math program, he is in a reading group within the classroom and he even participates in Spanish. Does he always do as well as the other kids, no, but there are times he has done better. His mother has worked tirelessly to support both him and the school. He is a part of the classroom, the school and our community at large. What amazes me is that many look at the kids with Ds or other disabiltities and say “sooner or later they are going to have to go somewhere else” like it would never be what the child or the parent may want, when in fact, it may well be the disabled student who decides, “I want to be with people like me!” I think that we as parents need to continue to work together so choices like these are our decisions, based on our participation in the team and not something forced on us or our children by the omnipotent professionals!

I was reminded of that phenomenon reading the posts. It is not unheard of for aspiring teachers to do the extra work needed for a special ed cert knowing it makes them more employable. They get hired, preferably at a ‘good school district’ and then take the first regular classroom opening that shows up the following year-they have the seniority(by union rules) and the school is back to searching for a new special ed teacher.

I think you are right. I am glad that they are doing the right thing for him, even if it is only knowledge of costs down the road if they don’t. You are fortunate that it is not your child they are learning on—it is so much better for the child to prevent damage than attempt to repair it.

Beth

Absolutely! That’s one of the main points of IDEA… That parents (and the kids themselves when they are older) are supposed to be equal partners in the “team”. While I know it’s not an across-the-board attitude, I’ve heard too often on this BB, the attitude from a few teachers that “we’re the experts, those ignorant parents should just atay out of the way, and accept that we know what’s best for their kid.”

Karen

What a shame that is! Fortunately, that’s another thing I don’t see happening in our school system. Maybe because the SPED teachers feel better supported and don’t burn out as quickly. Our SPED teachers for the most part are knowledgeable creative and caring. And most of them stay in their positions for a long time. In fact, two of our “student Services Administrators” (who are the team leaders for each of our schools, and the liason between parents and the SPED department) are SPED teachers who have moved up through the ranks. Another ex-SPED teacher in our school system is now the principal of our lower elementary school.

Karen

I know, I feel SO-O-O bad for those older kids and their parents. But when they were dx’d NOBODY knew anything to speak of about NLD or how to support these kids. Even now, although the school system acknowledges the disorder, and realizes that they do need to provide services for them, it STILL requires that we not only train each new set of teachers every year, but that we continue to guide them through mishaps all year long. I suppose it’s not surprising since we LIVE with him and are constantly learning. But it’s still tiring.

It seems incredible, but I just talked to our neuropsych yesterday. It’s already time to set up his 3 year re-eval for next fall.

Karen

Karen, you are so fortunate. I just moved from a district where all, and I do mean ALL, of th special education teachers whom have been hired for the last year have been hired under emergency certification! Currently, this same district is employing LDTC’s under emergency certification. It does not make them bad people, but I am not comfortable having this many untrained, uncertified personnel working for my children. In my state a parent can submit an request in writing an obtain information pertaining to the background and training of the educators. I also make it a point to go to the board of ed meetings and question question question. I have been told I am a bit particular, being that I have both a BA and MA in Special Ed and have been teaching for over 16 years, but hey… :) I only want completely certified teachers for my children, not just anyone with blood running i the veins to fill in… just my opinion.

Boy, that WOULD be miserable to deal with. Many people in our town complain about the high tax rate. But the truth is, we have a high tax rate because of the committment of the majority of our residents to education. That means that we can pay enough and offer good enough teaching conditions to attract well qualified teachers. Our school system will not hire a teacher without a Masters.

Even aides have to have a 4 year degree. Some of the aides are fully qualified teachers who want to get an “in” in this school system. Many of these, if they prove their capablilities as aides, have first shot at classrooms of their own when they become available.

It’s certainly not perfect. (I’m sure you’ve heard me complaining from time to time) but it certainly seems way better than a lot of the school systems I hear about on this board.

Karen

All this discussion is interesting but all education is local, in that you need to look at the politics of your state and town, tax structure and then the individual school, as well as if and how your child is classified as special ed. Elementary ed. is much more likely to remediate than high school, which may just provide accomodations to LD students. I am one of those who thinks special ed. is stretched way too thin to try to service huge numbers of kids in many categories, and not doing too well at much of it. The new IDEA may well decrrease the number of special ed. categories served, and may end up doing better at that.

Karen - my district has a VERY high tax rate and we cannot hire reg ed or special ed teachers. we hire teachers and then apply for emergency certification, and our teacher’s pay scale is one of the lowest in the area. it makes it very difficult to hire good teachers and to keep them when they can go to a district right around the corner for much more money.
i have no problem hiring someone and then applying for emergency certification when it is needed - but it seems that in our district, it has become the norm. i will add, tho, that my child’s teacher is wonderful - and i doubt there would be a better teacher to meet my child’s needs even with full certification. this year would be a wash without her.

> Of course there’s a point where it is not fair to make a MR
> child sit through academic classes he has no hope of
> understanding. Not only that, but it’s a waste of his
> precious time when he could be learning important life
> skills. As I said, the Downs child in my son’s class is NOT
> in the classroom for academics. He receives direct
> instruction appropriate for him during those times. But
> there is no reason that he can’t be included in music, art,
> assemblies, lunch and recess, etc. When it makes SENSE he is
> included.

With all due respect, please be careful not to pass judgement - it is not up to us to decide that academics is a waste of time (especially at a 4th grade level) and that important life skills should be taught, etc. There are many reasons why a child with down syndrome would receive their special educational services in a reg ed classroom, especially at the younger grades. I’m not saying that it would work with every child and/or that it would work from grammar school on up thru high school…what I am saying is that parents make decisions, along with the CST, on where the child’s needs can best be met - and that sometimes ends up bing the reg ed class - regardless of what others think that student might be “getting” academically. often, there is a tradeoff - exposure to general (core curriculum) academics with less focus on retaining the same amount of info as the reg ed kids - but more focus on learning appropriate social interactions that perhaps the student would not be exposed to in a self-contained classroom.

My child is educated in a reg ed class - his academic expectations are different than his non-disabled peers - but there is not a chance in the world that i would want any educator to work on life skills now. the life skills that he needs to know and is learning now are being learned in the reg ed class - how to line up, how to wait his turn, how to raise his hand and acknowledge another student. my feeling is he could be the worlds smartest child with down syndrome and could rock the world with his knowledge/ability, breaking all stereotypes that are out there, etc - but if he has inappropriate social skills and cannot interact or behave or conduct himself appropriately in a classroom, restaurant, or on a job what good are the academics?

just food for thought, not trying to be confrontational…
Jane

Of course a town can have a high tax rate and NOT spend it on their schools, but our town really does make schools a priority. Plus we are a small enough town that we don’t have expenses a bigger town might have. For instance, we have only ONE elementary school, middle school and high school. So we don’t have mutiple admin staff that are needed with more schools. We don’t have a paid fire dept. either… it’s all volunteer. So we can afford to pay our teachers pretty well. We’re not the highest in the state, but we’re up there. And as I said, teachers feel supported, which is probably at least as important.

I’m sure that there are times that you can get good teachers with emergency certification, but I would think you can also get a lot of people who have good knowledge of the content they are teaching and absolutely NO training in actually teaching kids.

Karen

Hi Jane,

Jane Weber wrote:

> With all due respect, please be careful not to pass judgement
> - it is not up to us to decide that academics is a waste of
> time (especially at a 4th grade level) and that important
> life skills should be taught, etc. There are many reasons
> why a child with down syndrome would receive their special
> educational services in a reg ed classroom, especially at the
> younger grades.

I’m not sure if you read what I wrote. I said that the child should be in the general ed classroom when it is appropriate for him, and in another setting when that meets his needs better.

> I’m not saying that it would work with every
> child and/or that it would work from grammar school on up
> thru high school…what I am saying is that parents make
> decisions, along with the CST, on where the child’s needs can
> best be met -

That is absolutely correct, and this is what THIS CHILD’S parents and team have decided is best for him.

> My child is educated in a reg ed class - his academic
> expectations are different than his non-disabled peers

That’s wonderful for your child.

>- but
> there is not a chance in the world that i would want any
> educator to work on life skills now.

I didn’t say this child was getting life skills training. I doubt it, but I don’t know what he works on when he’s out of the classroom. I assume (as I wrote) that he is working on whatever is most appropriate for his benefit. Since his mom moved him into our school system from their home district on School Choice, I would assume she is happy with his programming.

> the life skills that he
> needs to know and is learning now are being learned in the
> reg ed class - how to line up, how to wait his turn, how to
> raise his hand and acknowledge another student.

This little boy gets all of that. As I said, he is in the classroom as much as possible. And his aide is right there with him. He does very well.

Again, the point I was making is the same one you are making. That the point of an Individualize Educationa Plan is that it IS “individualized” to meet the needs ofone specific student, whatever his or her needs are. The parents are equal members of the team that makes the decisions as to what is appropriate for that child.

Karen