To wait, or not to wait

We’ve done TLP. For what is worth, 2 or 3 weeks of the program won’t make any difference in anything.

Beth

I’d just like to comment that you surely don’t mean that you are going to do all those programs in one summer, do you???

Janis

Well, here was my thought…..

I would start TLP now, with 2 15 min sessions per day, 5 days per week, as per the instructions, for 8 weeks. That takes me to the end of June.

Then I would also, in a few weeks time from now, start some BrainGym exercises for 15 min per day, through to the end of the summer.

For June and July, they could do Brainbuilder SW for 15 min per day, followed by, or overlapped with, Visionbuilder for 15 min per day (which might bleed into the school year).

And, during July and August, I’d use one or two of the following, which I haven’t quite sorted out yet: Audiblox, PG, and/or LMB SS/VV. I may choose different remedies for my differently-LD kids, but I’m thinking 45 min per day per kid for whatever the one-on-one program is. In the meantime, the other one could be doing the computer-based excercises.

Does this sound too ambitious? I’m desperate, and summer is the only time this will work. From my standpoint, it’s not much less time per day than I spend on homework with them during the school year, which is why I’m thinking we can pull it off in the summer.

As I sort out the one-on-one programs, for a dyslexic kid who also can’t extract and summarize main/important ideas, would I be better off just using SS/VV and forgetting about PG? She’s starting 6th grade (middle school) in the fall. Would we be better off doing Audiblox prior to trying SS/VV (even if that delays the latter to the fall), to improve sequencing and short-term memory first?

Am I crazy?

One thing, all those programs are very similar.

The more I do this the more I realize that they all have very similar exercises with a little variation, here a little variation there.
I may not do audiblox now because my son’s vision therapist has us doing exercises that seem on top of straight vision therapy, a little brain gym, a little audiblox, a little sensory integration therapy, a little seeing stars (visualization) we even did some word blending using a near far chart.

The good thing about this is that I don’t need to be as diligent in trying to understand what might be going on and what he might need to address a certain issue. I just discuss a particular issue with the doctor and this little light bulb goes on over his head.

I don’t think all optometrists do this so I think we are very lucky. Finally, someone who can competantly remediate my son’s underlying deficits and it isn’t me!

An interesting side note: I have met 3 parents at his office and all 3 are teachers 2 are even sped.

OK. My two cents.

Brainbuilder, Vision Builder, and Audioblox are all trying to get at underlying deficits—memory, sequencing, among others. Audioblox is the broadest program. I don’t know if they are all necessaary since, as Linda says, they have a lot of overlap. Brain Gym is more movement. I think it would provide some nice variety. If you don’t think your children require the breadth of Audioblox, then do Brainbuilder and Vision Builder. Otherwise, just do Audioblox.

PG and SS are reading programs. SS teaches visualization of letters and could be used along side of PG. The manual is written in a way that permits this. Not all kids need SS though—so it might be over kill. Personally, I’d just do PG with the younger one and skip the SS, unless you have reason to believe it is necessary. It isn’t for most kids.

V & V is a comprehension program. Does your older child decode well? The first place to start with comprehension is to make sure it is not decoding. Give her the PG test. If she passes with flying colors then I would do V & V instead.

Should you do Audioblox before V & V? I don’t know. It depends how wide spread her deficits are. If she reads ok and can do math ok (except story problems) but is just having trouble with comprehension and writing, I’d just do V & V. If she is having trouble across the board, Audiblox is a more general program. But, I understand, it takes about 30 hours of work to have a real effect. You probably can’t get enough benefit out of it in just a month’s work.

Beth

Thanks, Beth, and everyone who has responded….

Variety was part of the reason for the overlapping programs, but also because some of them are 1-on-1, and some can be done with the computer. The computer based ones both free my time to work with the other child (working single mom), and also provide challenges without “mom” there to get mad at if they don’t get it, and might also be viewed as being more “fun” than working with mom. To sort out the jumble of problems and potential remediations, and also apply some of the wisdom you guys have already provided:

OLDER CHILD — 11 yr, 10 mo., 5th grade. Dyslexic. Right letters, wrong order, not phonetic, didn’t do that well on the PG test, and nonsense words upset her (“This is STUPID!”). Can’t always hear where in the word the sound is, and doesn’t look at “Gril” or “Brithday” and see that it is wrong. Doesn’t decode quickly enough, so she makes words up/substitutes words while reading. Clearly I need to fix this before I work on comprehension. I thought Audiblox would help with the underlying sequencing issues, but SS or PG has a more concrete connection to the objective at hand. We had taken a run at PG and Audiblox in the past, but it was during the school year, and I was trying to start both at the same time, and I was encountering a lot of angst from her whenever it got harder (she hates to lose or be wrong). So it didn’t last. And most of PG seemed easy, but as Victoria recently pointed out, perhaps I need to be patient too, and take her through all the easy stuff thoroughly, and then the harder stuff might follow better. But, judging by a recent demo I saw at an LMB open house, SS may be more rigorous than PG, and maybe more effective for this depth of problem? Can I effectively do SS with just the manual, or do I need the whole kit to do it right? Or is PG just as effective?

I’m thinking this as an approximate plan for her: TLP (8 wks), half overlapped with 8 weeks of Braingym and Brainbuilder and Audiblox, then BrainGym and VisionBuilder and SS for the rest of the summer, then V/V as we go into the school year. (You guys have helped me adjust my expectations).

YOUNGER CHILD. 10 yrs, 5 months, 3rd grade. Might be ADD and/or CAPD. Spells everything phonetically, according to what she hears, which isn’t always correct. Can’t always decode her own stuff. Has a little trouble writing neatly, even while printing, though cursive is worse: relative sizes of letters all messed up, printed “o” / “u” and “r” / “v” frequently look alike, descenders don’t always descend, letters tend to tilt every which way (more so in cursive). Decoding not fast enough, but not bad. Vocabulary small (partly an ESL issue). But very little that she reads penetrates or sticks, and nothing comes back out (can’t express what she read, has trouble following directions and provides answers that indicate she didn’t understand the question.). No math sense or math reasoning ability — can’t interpret word problems. Can’t go from “how much longer” to subtraction. In general, lacking in sense of time or place. Thinking some OCN with her, but I think audiblox will also help her from a sequencing and short-term memory perspective.

I’m thinking this as an approximate plan for her (similar to older sister, but a few things different): TLP (8 wks), half-overlapped with 8 weeks of Braingym and Brainbuilder and Audiblox, then BrainGym and Earobics (instead of Visionbuilder) and PG (instead of SS) for the rest of the summer, then V/V and OCN as we go into the school year.

How’s that sound? Still too ambitious? What’s the verdict on SS vs PG, and whether I can do SS without the full kit?

Thanks again.
dab-nj

re your original question, I always go back to the nitty gritty: what is your goal in this testing? Do you want a “pass” or a high mark, or do you want a “fail” or a low mark? It seems that, in order to qualify for special ed and all that, you want the low mark. So doing something that might imporove the score right before is a bad move. Besides, the last month of school is always a very scattered time anyway and it will be hard to get any concentration.

Thanks for your nice words about my advice. As for your older child with the out-of-order letters, *definitely* go back to the beginning and re-teach those left-to-right scanning skills. And to reinforce this, re-teach writing at the same time stressing left-to-right and top-to-bottom directionality of every single letter.

For an older kid, you may want to try a calligraphy pen and a calligraphy book — really reinforces the skill and develops a fun hobby at the same time. A proper dip-in-ink calligraphy pen really reinforces proper positioning. Note with calligraphy that the beauty comes from the basic form and that decorations are to be used very sparingly; kids tend to focus on decorative detail and miss the main message.

I am recently seeing a large cohort of kids who have trouble with writing directionality and spelling directionality; my personal theory is when I see a cohort of kids of similar age all showing the same syndrome at the same time, *both* diagnosed LD *and* non- on grade level, there is something happening in the fashions in school teaching. So it is all the more important to teach this at home because the school has left a big blank there.

As far as reviewing PG or whatever from the ground up, be clear that this is review and of course it’s fairly easy, that’s the point of review, to go over what you already know and perfect the details before you go on to harder stuff. If the student knows that this is a fairly quick review, not a failure, that gives a more positive attitude.
One of the most common problems I see is students being put into Level 3 of *any* program without having mastered Levels 1 and 2. This is always a recipe for failure. And the student gets into the habit of using non-productive coping strategies because there’s no hope of real understanding.
If a program is worth doing, it’s worth doing right.

I’d also say definitely to start from the ground up with the second child. With both, work quickly through things that really are already mastered, but check each step for real mastery.

For both kids, I don’t see any problem in mixing programs as long as you avoid fatigue and keep goals clear in mind. Well-chosen ones shouldn’t contradict each other. A total of an hour or an hour and a half a day doesn’t sound excessive. It may actually be a good idea to use four programs at 15 minutes a day each instead of beating on one for an hour, because the change and variety help keep concentration going (I do something like this in tutoring, switching gears every 20 minutes or so.) However, since many of these programs require intense concentration, you’ll need good breaks in between. I don’t know your schedule, but can you do one of the intensive computer programs in the morning and the other in the evening, for example? Or at least one before supper and one after?

Thanks, Victoria! The calligraphy thing is a good idea, as she fancies herself as artistic, and it might reduce the resistance to forming her letters differently. I had been contemplating how to introduce this concept, since you had mentioned it in an earlier post/email. I had no idea before that, that it made a difference, but she does do some weird stuff. (But in defense of our schools, she learned the roman alphabet in Bulgaria, alongside her native cyrillic alphabet.)

I try to be sensitive to the need to switch gears and take a break sometimes. I thought maybe I could use a little BrainGym exercises as a mental “break” — or is that a more subtle but still noticeable brain drain? I haven’t received the book yet (it’s in the mail). Since I don’t pick them up much before 6 PM, it would be hard to do anything before supper. But maybe we could go out for ice cream as a break sometimes. The day is short. But LMB does 4 hours a day of one-on-one (which I don’t think my younger one would have lived through, had I been able to afford it), so I figure I’m still an improvement over that regimen!

Any opinion on SS vs PG?

Thanks again,
dab-nj

I have to believe that the problem with the r controlled words might be related to vision and possibly sequencing. I have nothing scientific to go on except that my son had this problem even after he maxed out on phonographics and was the decoding master. He could decode difficult nonsense words but would mess up on the r controlled words like girl or tried. He was even reading well at this point but would mess up mostly when seeing these in isolation. He could use the text to compensate.

Vision therapy worked for that. Vision builder has a component that words on binocular vision that I don’t use because we do VT. I can’t say how well it works.

In my very very humble opinion I would say that your younger daughter has even more signs of a vision problem. Her handwriting issues are just oh so familiar.

It is a tough call on what to do. I think doing any of these programs will help your daughters. Only you know what you and they can handle. Be careful about knowing your and their limits.

I think doing the computer programs is a good idea. I do find that having my son work with the computer is useful at times. I like being taken out of the equation. It really might work for your competitive older daughter because she will be playing against herself.

I you are ever interested I know an interactive metronome provider in N.J. who will do 2 for one. She is treating my friend’s two children and is charging her $100 a session for the two of them. They do it at the same time.

Linda,
Interesting perspective…perhaps I should send the younger one through vision builder as well. As you say, it can only help.

I may take you up on that IM provider at some point. Sounds like a deal! Thanks!
dab-nj

Another opinion.

Your children clearly have several issues going on. My approach is to try to tackle things systematically and one at a time. I know the temptation is to try to everything at once–but believe me it is better to less thoroughly.

They both have difficulties with sounds and auditory based problems are the most common reason for reading difficulties. I’d try to eliminate this difficulty first and then see where you are at.

Personally, I’d do TLP and add Brain Gym whenever you feel like it. It will work at some of the same things in different ways. I would not do Brainbuilder. It reallly cannot be done independently very easily and it is one of these programs you do for 10 minutes at a time. You can do it for followup later.

I would do Earobics 1 & 2 with both girls. One is for younger children but except for the memory work, the two programs are different. There is some sequencing work which should help your one child in particular. If they don’t like the memory work in the first one (it uses sounds like cries, and telephone rings instead of numbers) they could do the second one, which uses numbers. This would do some of the same things as Brainbuilder but provide more variety. My son did it independently too, at a much younger age than your girls are.

I’d start Earobics after TLP. Then you have a decision. You can focus on underlying deficits or reading. Personally, I’d do PG along side Earobics. Most kids will make significant progress with this combination. If yours don’t, well you back up and try something else. (You can buy the SS manual and incorporate it into PG—the manual is enough—I have it. Although again, this isn’t necessary for most kids. See if your children can visualize letters in their mind. Spell a word for them that is easy. Then ask what they see. If they see an object, then they may need to be taught to visualize letters and SS is a good program for that.)

You can have one child doing Earobics while you work with the other after dinner. Research has shown you get the most effect from Earobics by doing it intensely so this approach would work well both logistically as well as providing max. benefit. Take a break—do a bit of Brain Gym and switch kids.

Alternatively, you could do Audioblox with them (instead of PG & SS). Realize the Audioblox people say you need 30-40 hours to see real progress. So you need to do this all summer to get these hours in. You could follow up that then with a reading program—perhaps at the very end of summer and going into fall. Your kids would then gain more broad based skills and perhaps learn to read well easier. But at the end of summer, they aren’t likely to be as far along on the reading….but may have easier time with handwriting, math and other things next year. It is a judgment call, which only you can make. It would depend on how much you think other areas are causing as much difficulty as reading.

Audioblox does not have a very strong auditory component to it which is why I would recommend Earobics. It requires one on one attention too—much like reading so doing Audioblox and a reading program together would be difficult for one person and two kids with limited time.

If your kids finish Earobics 1 and 2, I’d then swith them to Vision Builder.

Beth

Beth, thanks for your comprehensive reply….that’s good to know about brainbuilder. I figured that since it was a software program, it could be done independently. Perhaps I’ll hang on to that one for a while, and take the earobics approach instead as a computer-based activity. I think I’m leaning toward Audiblox as the next focused program, and I’ll play the introduction of SS/PG by ear. Good to know that I can combine the two, and only need the manual.

I am reminded by your comments of “The Hare and the Tortoise” — slow and steady wins the race. :-))
Thanks,
dab-nj

This is what I did as well. I didn’t have as much trouble as some eliminating the auditory problem. My son did have trouble with the sounds initially but he really just needed to be systematically taught and did not need therapy for processing in that area. It really only took phonographix.

I agree with Beth try to get at one thing at a time. Then once you get a better feel for things you can add a bit at a time.

I do think there are vision issues there but my son learned to read with severe vision issues. It was other things that were a problem, math, reading for long periods and writing.

Audiblox is simple to do. Much easier that something like phonographix.

Is there a smart high school or college student in your neighborhood that the girls like and respect that could be trained to do this? It could be done by the time you get home a few times a week and then you could do it on the weekend.

I have considered doing this myself from time to time.

Brainbuilder is designed to be done for very short spurts. I know I couldn’t get my 10 year old to do it without my presence. It is very boring, yet very difficult. My son, on the other hand, liked many of the Earobics exercises and enjoyed the challenge of “filling” the bubble sheet to show his master.

Believe me, I know the temptation of trying to do it all. My son is 10 and I have been working with him since he was 7. I have found that we often cycle back—we worked on comprehension for several months and will have to return to decoding. Unlike Linda’s son, the auditory piece for my son has been difficult. Hopefully, your children will be more like her son…

Beth

Linda F,
I live in NJ and I would like to take you up on your offer for the Interactive Metronome Provider in N.J. that does 2 for 1. How do I get her name and number?