I’m GeorgiaCA from SF Bay Area. I have learned so much from reading here the last few days. Thanks for all the wisdom you share.
My 6th grade daughter is GATE (gifted), 4.0, reads constantly (Redwall, LOTR). I have had long discussions with her of plot and character, so I know her comprehension is good. So what’s the problem? She can’t spell, which acts as a huge roadblock to developing her writing skills. I would never have thought of her as dyslexic, but after reading a lot I realize she may fit that description.
She reads totally by sight and context. She can’t decode at all.
Spelling problems: transposes (yoru, stya), some reversals (b/d), phonetic spelling (anuff), drops out whole syllables, spells the same word four different ways on the same page, but gets 100% on spelling tests. Poor, but readable handwriting.
Difficulty with sequencing (alphabetizing, telling time on analog clock).
Visual memory: She identifies a character in a book by remembering the shape of the letters in the name. But she can’t remember where the silverware goes when setting the table! (I’m not sure what this means.)
The school won’t do anything since she is getting such good grades. This certainly is an example of “wait to fail”. So far the teachers grade on content, but that won’t happen on H.S. and college essay exams, and her content suffers, too.
The schools have not taught much explicit phonics, but her best friend and her 2nd grade sister, who went through the same schools, are great spellers. So the problem is not just the teaching method.
Questions:
1. Does this sound like a LD? Can one be a great reader and still have LDs?
2. Should I get her tested to pinpoint the problems, or just treat the symptoms?
3. Where to get tested? How much testing?
Educational consultant: $300; Slingerland screening: $250; LMB: $650; UC Berkeley New Learning Clinic: $1,000 (plus 6 mo. wait); or Oakland Children’s Hospital: $2,700; private neuropsych: ???
4. I would like to home tutor this summer and wait until next summer for more expensive remediation, if still needed. How does a phonics program work with an already strong reader? Make up non-sense words to sound out? Pick out an old novel or textbook with very difficult vocabulary to practice on?
[%sig%]
Re: Great reader/can't spell
Buy the book reading reflex. It will help her learn to decode.
I did it with my son and it really was not that difficult.
My son also had severe sequencing issues that were vastly improved with interactive metronome.
On the silverware; Does she have trouble with left and right?
Re: Great reader/can't spell
I would get Mel Levine’s book “All Kinds of Minds”. He talks about sequencing issues, which it sounds like your daughter might have. His appraoch of focusing on strengths is a good one for a child with mild issues.
Personally, I would spend the money on testing. I would attack the problems you see.
As far as reading goes, get the book Reading Reflex and administer the tests in it to her. You will see if she has the basic underlying skills necessary for reading down and how her code knowledge is. I suspect she can decode somewhat—I think sight reading alone breaks down about third grade. You can use the book to teach her too yourself or find a tutor.
As far as spelling goes, the best approach I know is AVKO—you can do a web search and find it. It is lists of words using word families that builds visual memory for word patterns over time. I am currently using it with my 10 year old son. It takes about 10 minutes a day. There is also an adult version which goes faster—there is a discussion on reading bb. that might help you decide.
Beth
Re: Great reader/can't spell
I am having the same problem with my 10 year old dd in fourth. Reads well but her spelling is indifferent at best—not as bad as yours, though “whith” for with does get to me. She also gets 100% on spelling tests. This is perhaps some sort of LD, but if you’re only dealing with one LD I’m not sure you need to bring out the heavy guns. I’m not doing so in my dd’s case. So while her brother has had reams of tests, she’s never had one.
What I did was hire a phonographix tutor (see www.readamerica.net), but they didn’t click—the tutor was not fast-paced enough for her. I’ve allowed her to quit but she has to do the following for me or she goes back to the tutor: two lessons a day of AVCO Sequential Spelling (we are using the adult version because it covers more ground more quickly) and a ten minute lesson a day in Cursive Success (from Handwriting Without Tears). (She can write legibly, but never learned cursive due to switching from a school that taught it late to one that taught it early.) The AVCO takes about ten minutes a day.
I am also making her do 15 minutes a day of Earobics (adult version) but am unsure if I’ll continue this as it’s pitched at a lower level than she is at and the software is not that great for adjusting levels. I have ordered a demo of the teen version of Sound Reading Solutions to see whether this will work more efficiently for her for getting down the sound/letter symbol connection. (It is apparently based on many of the same principles as Phonographix.) I am also looking into another software Beth mentioned on the board yestereday called Wordsort by Henderson software, which can be downloaded for free for 30 days to see if that might be helpful. For her, computer programs are very helpful as she loves the computer.
I plan for her to continue all this intensively over summer. I’ll reassess at the end of summer if I’m not seeing improvement. One other thing I’ve considered in her case is interactive metronome—her feel for the placement of her body in space is not great (and she is at the lower rungs of competitive ice skating—scary thought!). Your daughter’s spelling problems seem more severe—if my dd’s were I’d consider LMB’s Seeing Stars. I understand this is quite easy to do on your own with just the book. If you wanted to hand this all off to someone else, you could consider LMB, but their testing is pricey as is their program. I’m just not sure you need to consider raiding her college savings account as a first resort to remedying her problem when there are cheaper home remedies that could do the trick.
About setting the table—for years I could only remember to put the fork on the left side by remembering “fork has an r in it but does not go on the “r”ight side. It wasn’t until well into adulthood when it suddenly dawned on me the fork went on the left side and the knife went on the right because those are the hands you use to pick them up with. Maybe your dd too hasn’t made that connection.
Re: Great reader/can't spell
Georgia,
My students are having memory problems as well.
The following websites may be of help to you:
www.icando.org
www.visionbuilder.no
www.brainbuilder.com
I plan to help my students in the fall by using vision builder and
brainbuilder. I really believe that “memory” is the key.
I use Sequential Spelling (www.avko.org) with my students. It is
a wonderful program.
I also use Phono-Graphix and would highly recommend it to you.
BE
Re: Great reader/can't spell
Haven’t had time to read all the other posts, but I would recommend getting a copy of “Reading Reflex”. Your library may have a copy; otherwise it’s widely available in bookstores. Read the first three chapters, then give her the assessment tests. That will tell you a lot about where she is in decoding. My guess is that she decodes just fine, and the problem lies with vision (specifically, developmental vision delays) and sequencing.
Take a look at http://www.childrensvision.com to find out about developmental vision delays, and how regular eye exams do not check for it. You can find developmental optometrists in your area at http://www.covd.org . The reversals at this age often indicate a problem with developmental vision. Poor directionality and sequencing skills often results when there are unaddressed developmental vision delays.
Aside from “Reading Reflex” and a developmental vision evaluation, I would recommend looking into Audiblox (http://www.audiblox2000.com) or PACE (http://www.processingskills.com). Both of these programs work very well to develop directionality and sequencing skills (especially if developmental vision problems are first addressed). Audiblox can be done at home. PACE is much more expensive, but would likely provide very dramatic improvements.
What I would recommend specifically for spelling is Sequential Spelling (http://www.avko.org).
Personally, I would not spend money on testing (other than the developmental vision evaluation) at this point. Educational testing tends to cost a lot of money, only to tell you what you already know — that there are problems in specific areas. It will not tell you *why* these problems exist, or what to do about them (except in very vague terms).
Nancy
AVKO Question
I’m planning to work with my son on spelling over the summer also. He reads like your daughter, although he was slow to start, but his decoding is weak if he can’t use context clues, and his spelling is atrocious.
With the AVKO program, I am considering buying the full program. Does it provide enough ‘on your own’ worksheets that I could present a lesson each night and send something for him to do at his sitter’s the next day? She will supervise but won’t teach, so it needs to be useful work he can do on his own. I’d appreciate hearing from any of you who know the program well.
I agree with the advice above. I read very early and naturally, could have been a poster child for ‘whole language is great’ and I’m a great speller, but I also had plenty of direct phonics instruction. IMO, the TWO pieces of the puzzle make me a great reader — natural talent (which your daughter has for context and visual spatial, GeorgiaCA) and excellent training in ‘the code’. Give her the second piece of the puzzle, and she’ll stop befuddling teachers who think ‘gifted’ means ‘good at all academic tasks’!
Here’s hoping for a productive summer for all!
[%sig%]
Re: AVKO Question
Elizabeth,
There are no study sheets with AVCO, it is all tests and the program consists of you giving the tests. They say it takes ten minutes a day to give one test—but it’s only taking me five. The tests are in series of five based on a sound family:e.g., in, skin, etc the first day, ins, skins etc., the second, and skinned, sinned etc the third and so on. To accelerate, I am giving tests in two word families a day. That’s ten minutes. If you can fit it into your schedules you could give a test in two sound families in the morning, then the next in the series of tests for both sound families in the evening. That would be twenty minutes, or 40 minutes if it took you 10 minutes to do a test. (It is suggested that you do not give more than the two tests in a family a day because there needs to be time to integrate.) If you really wanted to accelerate, you could do three sound families a day, but that could be overloading.
The reason that this program is all tests is that after each word is given (both by itself and in a sentence), you then write the word down, and the child corrects what they wrote in the first place. The idea is sort of learning by assimilation from your own corrections without studying. (I only write down the word if my dd misspells it, which is one of the reasons it doesn’t take me long to give the test.) A test definitely could be given by a babysitter if she is reasonably literate and has good English pronunciation. If you follow the above plan, she could do two tests with him (if she’s willing, hastening to add it’s not a very demanding job) and you could do two with him. If you don’t think she has the wherewithal to come up with good sentences, one of the books offered has the all of the lessons in the first book with sentences to use.
I am using the adult AVKO because it is only two books of 180 tests each. The child AVKO has seven books of 180 lessons each—that’s pretty daunting fpr me to imagine sustaining. By the way, I like the student response book and would recommend buying it although it’s not necessary. I think my dd takes it more seriously than she would if she took the tests on random scraps of paper.
As I said above, I am also looking to see if Sound Reading Solutions might be a good summer computer program to supplement with and, based on Nancy’s suggestion above will also consider visionbuilder for my dd, which I already have to address some of my son’s issues.
Beth - AVKO question
Hi Beth,
I was just wondering where you started with the program. Did you start with the first book?
Re: Beth - AVKO question
I started with the first book. I had tried this program when my son was starting third grade and he couldn’t read MS words well enough to be successful with it after the first few weeks. I don’t know if we’ll ever get thorugh the seven books but I figure whatever we do will help.
I also am just doing one list a day, unlike some others. At this point, I just want something to stick—and it is. I also want it to be very painless.
Beth
Re: Great reader/can't spell
Thanks Mariedc (and Beth!) — that’s exactly what I was looking for. I think this program is worth the investment as a long-term strategy. My goal for summer is just to make handwriting/printing and spelling more ‘teacher friendly’ and less embarrassing for him.
I am also thinking of visionbuilder. They will have a bit of computer time each, and her youngest is a struggler so I’m thinking maybe if I bought the program and let her use it there, this would be one more way to get extra done during the day. I am certain we have some unresolved vision issues — if only I didn’t have to work…but we’ll get there, slow and sure.
I’m looking for a painless summer too — but we have to make some progress, as well.
Thanks again!
[%sig%]
Re: Beth - AVKO question
Beth,
Can you tell me if the AVKO lists are anything like the lists in the back of Rosner’s book? I just can’t bear to buy one more thing. He has gotten better with spelling but I wanted something systematic for this summer and I thought the Rosner lists would be good for a spelling review.
Thanks
Linda
Re: Great reader/can't spell
I find vision builder fairly painless and one of the few things my son can do fairly independantly. If your child likes games, is a little competitive and likes the feedback of beating her score she could do it without you.
My son almost always chooses it over other activities. I think it addresses working memory and visual processing speed.
My son has become a better reader especially with difficult words in isolation but I can’t say that it is all from this program. Could be related to other things we do.
Re: Great reader/can't spell
You’re describing my son a few years ago. He’s still not a great speller, but he’s improved, mainly because he had a tutor (who specializes in helping kids with LDs) drilling phonics into him. After going through phonetic spellings (which was largely missed in a whole language reading program in school), the tutor then moved onto lists of irregular words. We also make sure he has use of word processors with spell checking software, and a Franklin electronic dictionary (which gives choices when one types in a phonetic spelling.)
He’s dyslexic and dysgraphic, although he managed on his own to figure out ways to compensate for the dyslexia. The decoding problems are still there (as evidenced by his last set of testing) and he’s now on a 504 plan because of that. He had an IEP the last 3 years. If you can get the school to do the testing, it won’t cost you anything. I don’t know the law in your state, but in ours, we enlisted the help of my son’s 5th grade teacher to request formal testing. We had to meet extensively with his teacher to convince her of the severity of the problem, and once she was on board, it wasn’t a problem to get the principal to approve testing. Is there anyway you can get one teacher to realize there is a problem? Then, with him or her, it may be easier to convince those in the school that approve testing that it is needed. I really think the testing is important, so you have a good idea as to what you need to remediate. The testing my son had showed significant deficiencies in visual processing. Knowing where the problem was helped in coming up with strategies for compensation. The underlying problem isn’t going to go away. If your child is dyslexic, she’ll likely always be dyslexic. However, she can learn how to cope with the dyslexia. There isn’t a magic bullet that will cure everything. But, in this day and age, there’s lots of assistive technology out there that will let your child write in the style, and with the spelling, that better fits her high intelligence.
Good luck!
Kay
Re: Silverware
My until just recently my 11 yo dd would set the silverware by the plates and her younger sister would follow behind, rearranging the pieces into the correct position. Of course a fight would always follow.
Finally I asked if she was placing them incorrectly just to bug us or if she REALLY couldn’t remember where they went (the thought seemed impossible to me.) She admitted that she couldn’t remember the correct placement — and I realized this was one more piece to the puzzle.
When I told her to imagine she was holding a knife and fork to cut a piece of meat - fork in L and knife in R - she got it in a snap! (works for right-handers)
[%sig%]
Re: PG and AVKO
BE,
Should I try to get some PG done for a few weeks first before adding in AVKO? Or can they be started simultaneously?
Does visual memory/sequencing work need to be done first of all?
Georgia
[%sig%]
Re: Beth - AVKO question
It is similar. AVKO goes much slower and works on automating endings like plurals, ed, ing, more than Rosner does. I think the differerence is Rosner is oriented toward reading which you can take in bigger chunks than spelling.
I am sick of working on decoding so I am looking for some transfer from spelling to reading. If you can spell it, you can read it but not necessarily the other way around. But if your son can spell Rosner, he wouldn’t need AVKO.
Beth
Re: Silverware
For what is worth, neither my husband or any of my children seem capable of setting a table correctly. Only my one (out of three) child is LD. My husband is not—but is left handed so maybe that is to blame.
Beth
I must confess, I never could get this right.
I am ambidextrous so I can cut with both hands. I never remember the way the average person would do this.
I definitely have issues with directions and left and right.
Let me tell you about my father..
He is a very intelligent man, gifted abstract and analytical thinker. He has always been a voracious reader and was an excellent student despite missing a year or two of elementary school as a child due to asthma. ( He has 2 ivy league degrees )
I always knew as a kid that he couldn’t remember people’s names - it was a family joke. And he often mispronounced names of places that were foreign or unfamiliar. I also knew he couldn’t spell very well.
Well after diving into this LD world I started asking him how he approaches an unfamiliar word when reading. It turns out the concept of decoding is completely foreign to him. (You should have heard him mangle the names in Harry Potter when he read it to my son!!) If he doesn’t know a word he almost can’t read it at all. But once he knows it he uses what must be an incredible memory and never forgets it.
He was never identified as LD, because frankly I don’t think his academic performance ever suffered enough (except for his total inability to learn a foreign language in college) so nobody ever looked at these few specific severe deficits. He’s been very successful in business thanks to good secretaries and spell check.
So I do think its possible for someone to be an excellent reader without decoding abilities - although that is probably the exception , and I’d want my daughter to learn how to decode if I were you. Maybe the spelling isn’t quite so urgent? Good luck!
Re: Great reader/can't spell
15% of the population cannot spell. Spelling alone does not qualify a child for RSP. If she can read advanced books and can read the words, then she has something going for her. I’d remediate the symptoms at home. AVKO is a good program, buy that, use it daily and forget the other jazz. Keep it simple and short.
Join the club
I was around nine or ten years old when my brother started being very unpleasant about the fact that I was doing the table wrong. Somewhere in the argument he made some comment about left and right, and this is when I remember finding out that I didn’t know the difference, and didn’t care very much. I now can get the difference if I think for a moment. Only take the wrong highway exit about one time in fifty, so what the heck.
Re: Silverware
We have the right/left problem. I taught my daughter you “write” with your “right” hand. (Again only works for right-handers).
Now, when someone tells her “go right” I am the only person that sees that almost imperceptible movement of her right hand that she uses to remind her self which way is right
Re: I must confess, I never could get this right.
I’m not ambidextrious (isn’t that EQUAL on both sides?), but I write right handed, tie my shoes right handed, and eat right handed (most of the time). I do everything else with my left hand. Never had problems with directionality, but I’m so uncoordinated with dance, it’s funny. In aerobics/Jazzercise, I have the hardest time getting those steps down. I’m the one (IN THE VERY BACK) whose going left when everyone else is going right and vice-a-versa. Never affected me academically. Just odd.
When do you just say "forget the spelliing" and go with the
My daughter is reading and comprehending pretty well (OG this Summer to work on MS words). Spelling is horrible, though better when she’s typing (they can learn to spell kinesthetically too).
She has spent every Summer, every school week for 3 years going to tutoring, OT, or whatever. When do you say enough is enough and just let her be a “bad speller” Or do I go out and get a spelling tutor?
IF I were the saint Beth is, I could teach her myself, but it just doesn’t work. (Am I the ONLY parent who has a child that knows MORE than they do? :-)
She can pass a spelling test with an “A” every week. But can’t spell “take” correctly in a paragraph. Tack, take, tacke, all could be the same word in the same paragraph. Give her the spell check and she’ll get it correct every time. (In other words she recognizes it when it’s in a list)
When do you just say “forget it”? Or DO you ever? When do we start saving for college instead of spending on tutoring?
Re: PG and AVKO
Georgia,
I would recommend that you start with Phono-Graphix. Learning how
to decode will definitely help with the spelling skills. One way to begin
with Sequential Spelling, combining it with Phono-Graphix, is when you
finish the first set (Fat-Cat-Sat series) begin with words such as
at, fat, fatter, fattest, bat, batter, batting ect.) Just apply the skills of SS to
the fat-cat-sat words that are used in PG.
Start immediately with the visual/memory skills. I found that my students
were learning their skills, but were not retaining them. Memory skills may be
the key. I’m very excited about using vision builder and brain builder next
year with my students.
Wishing you the best!
BE
Re: Silverware
I taught my son the same way. I still have to think which way is right when people give me directions. Strikes my husband, who has a very natural sense of direction, as very funny. So I told my son that my tricks were our secret and that daddy would laugh at us both. As I have learned more about learning, I tried visualizing it. I get it much easier—and can even find my way out a Florida subdivision!!
Beth
Re: When do you just say "forget the spelliing" an
Do you think you could just bargain with her to do 5-10 minutes of work a day with you? Appeal to her self interest somehow. That really is all AVKO would take. My son is more willing to do spelling than some of the other things I have made him do, just because it seems more relevant Tell her that this program will help the spelling stick in her head. Pay her, if you have to.
My son is the same age as your daughter and it is working really well. I tried it earlier—beginning of third—and had to drop it. He is actually starting to spell patterns correctly without studying them. That is probably the missing piece for her.
If she just wont’ do anything for you, is there anyone else who might be willing to do it? I wouldn’t hire a tutor for spelling….I’d let it go first.
My son doesn’t like having a tutor (he doesn’t mind therapy, on the other hand–because it has been more physical, I think). I think it really is because the tutors have had him work an hour and I never do. We work in short spurts, never more than a half hour, and often in 15 minute increments. He has integration issues and an hour is hard for him. So I bargain with him against a tutor…….
Beth
Re: visual processing problems.....
If testing showed significant deficits in the area of visual processing, this can probably be improved significantly. The first step is to get a developmental vision evaluation to determine if there are visual efficiency problems (highly probable). Vision therapy is usually very effective in treating visual efficiency problems. After VT, programs such as Audiblox or PACE are very effective at developing visual processing skills.
For more information about developmental vision, check out http://www.childrensvision.com
Nancy
Hi Georgia,
One thing you could try that would be less expensive (and may be a good starting point) is getting the book Reading Reflex/Phonographix. You can purchase it online, at practically any bookstore, or even borrow it from the library. There’s a short and easy test towards the beginning of the book that may help you pinpoint any phonololgical issues. If you decide to use the program it’s quite easy to implement. I would think your daughter may progress quickly considering her strong compensating skills.
In addition to this, you might also want to look into programs and techniques for helping with visual memory (LMB, Audiblox….).
Good luck! :-)
Laura (in So. Cal!)