Son , 15 Should I test him? LD

Kathy,

Personally, as a special ed. teacher, I urge you to take him anywhere besides the public school for testing. Their testing is rarely detailed enough nor do they often use effective remediation methods. Some suggestions for low cost testing are: a university reading clinic (call the LD dept at your nearest university and ask if they do testing), and Scottish Rite Clinics (most services free, http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/temple/booklet/cldp.htm). More expensive but very good options would be private clinics such as Lindamood-Bell (www.lindamoodbell.com). These places would be able to recommend qualified private tutors or teaching methods, if needed.

If it were me, I’d definitely have him tested, especially if he is planning to go to college. You can always let him take a class at the local community college while homeschooling his junior or senior year to let him adjust to college level courses. Most allow dual enrollment of high school students (our state, age 16 and up) and he could gain college and high school credit at the same time.

Janis

Also having taught h.s. special ed, a private professional is almost certainly a better idea because in general most of their testing is of elementary kiddos so they simply won’t have the experience in interpreting a situation like yours.

High school is also the time and place where a kiddo whose reading or writing are behind his other learning skills is *least* likely to find a good niche, because those independent language skills are often the main yardstick for measuring whether you’re one of hte achievers or one of the rest of the folks who go to school because they’re legally required to.

If you can, the best people to recommend a good professional would be teachers who’ve had lots of dealings with and looked at lots of reports from professionals, so if you have a private LD school and you could catch the ear of somebody on the staff and ask for a recommendation, that’s what I would do (another parent would be good but would have seen fewer reports, though of course they’d have also dealt wiht the pro him/herself through the whole testing process).

How is his reading — does he read aloud well? Just how weak is that spelling? Wunce upn a tim…? Rsq me? Dose thiss mak sns?

I couldn’t help but laugh when I read the end of your post. I could read all your misspelled words just fine, Must come from my years of reading my son’s spelling. LOL. Maybe I could find a new job, reading dylsexic’s writing. Not a laughing matter, but sometimes…..you have to laugh to keep from crying.

He fits the exact description of a visual-spatial learner, with auditory sequencing weaknesses. He is a holistic learner, whole-to-part learner. He has exceptional reading comprehension, has fluent and fast silent reading abilities. He learned to read by sight, always did poorly with phonics and spelling. It is a physical struggle to write neatly. His cursive and printing is done with much effort. He wants to write a “d” but somehow it comes out looking like a “g”. He wants to write a “u” but makes a “y” instead.

He is bright, and turns on when given abstract, complex articles to read. He likes to learn by discovery. He hates anything sequential, detailed, and simple. He thrives on complexity. He always tries to inter-relate concepts, to understand the entire concept, he is a systems thinker.

We read adult magazines about all the disciplines (from biology to politics). This is far better for him, than reading simplified biology textbooks, which are too detailed, and hence, boring. He likes to synthesize information, and that’s why adult magazines are more interesting for him. They also discuss more aspects of the discipline, like ethics, etc.

I thought about putting my always homeschooled son into high school, but I am afraid that too many teachers will not appreciate his talents. His weaknesses will be noticed, that’s for sure. His writing lacks punctuation, has poor spelling, but the content of his writing is exceptional, and I worry that it will not be appreciated, and hence, his self-esteem will be destroyed by non-caring teacher criticism.

He is very good at math, in problem solving and complex topics, although he is careless with simple, computational details, like 7 times 8. He learned geometry by the discovery method, which suited him fine. I think he could excel in calculus, although he’s not there yet.

He is a wizard with computers. He’s my tech man around here, at home, regarding the computer.

I worry if he’ll do okay in a community college course. I think it depends on the course. Thanks for any suggestions about my son. I would love to know and understand more about him. He is studying for the SAT, for college, and he is making stupid mistakes in the math. He is bright, but I don’t know how to impress the college admissions office. Thanks!

Everything would depend on who his teachers were in high school. There really are some of ‘em out there who *would* appreciate his abilities — and others who wouldn’t. If you could interview the teachers and handpick his schedule… and the teachers mihgt already be primed to interpret the lack of skills as “oh, tsk, tsk, see what homeschooling does?” (I am *amazed* at some of the truly ludicrous things ps folks believe — kids from private schools not getting into accelerated programs because it just wouldn’t be possible for them to be as well prepared…)

How is he at typing on the computer? And have you considered some of the software to help with writing? There’s even “software for dyslexia” — and if he’s got good general verbal skills he might even want to try voice recognition software (I just did a workshop learning to use the stuff — pretty intensive training period, but I could see it really opening doors for some).

Unfortunately so many entry-level college courses are survey courses so they’re the ones that are full of terms and details — the stuff they figure you need to know before you can make the connections. However, I could imagine him in, say, a wildlife biology course on populations that he’d just have a grand old time in. I’d get on the community college website and see if any syllabi were on line.

I do math, and yes, this kind of thinker needs to be encouraged. My daughter also likes challenges and looking ahead and absolutely refuses to do drudgery for the sake of ritual.

Somewhere along the line he has to convince *himself* that the details are important, because the details support the big picture.

For me in math, the best thing was a very traditional course in formal Euclidean geometry (my daughter didn’t get this, and ran into trouble in advanced math for the lack of it.) This class is highly creative and holistic— the whole course is the invention of new proofs and relationships, and yoiu have to “see’ the interrelationships of the parts before you can start to write your proof — but it requires intense attention to detail to get the relationships right.

Another wonderful thing is a second language; my daughter had French and Spanish, but really took off when she had a top-notch Latin teacher. Again, creative and holistic — you get to speak and write in the news language — but also requiring intense attention to detail, as if you get one ending wrong you mess up your meaning.

Look at college courses, not for credit, but for things that will challenge him and show him the point and purpose of getting things right. There are many college courses available by corespondence, or at you local college, that can be taken for enrichment.

I wanted to tell you from my own experience when I was in high school I was having trouble in school.My parents got a divorce and I changed schools alot.My parents requested that the school test me.I had my first education plan when I was 16 years old.The good part was I got the help I needed. When I went to college I was able to take the ed. plan with me and they followed the recommendations made.I was able to take untimed tests and also had a tutor when I needed it.Now I am a parent of a child that has an education plan.My son is dyslexic.You may want to consider having the test also done by an educational specialist as well as the school.When my son did not make any progress we went outside the school for a second opinion. I found out he was not getting enough services and that he needed a specialized reading program. Well I hope that helps.If you have any questions e-mail me [email protected] . Take care
Rachel

I had my 10 year old daughter tested about 2-3 years ago. I know I had to pay for it privately because that’s the fastest way in England!! Thanks to our great Education system!! It cost me £100 and it was well worth the school could not ignore the report and had to act somehow. Although we only get English and not Math help we are getting somewhere. I get Amy help for English privately for 1 hr per week and she gets the Special Needs Teacher for Literacy and Numeracy now (Year 5) which she seems to be doing well with a group of 15 children only compared to over 20! I do admire you for teaching your son at home - although I don’t know much about what goes in America I know you can take people to court if you are desperate and your systems in each state different. Good luck….
janis

Thanks, Sue. Yes, he’s pretty good at typing, and that is good. Although, at times, I ask him to type a personal essay. I want him to talk about himself. (this is practice for the college admission essay - thought I’d start way early.) He just drew a blank stare at the computer for about 30 minutes, and typed nothing. He tried, he seemed to be really trying. Not a word.

Sometimes, a very simple assignment makes his head go blank.

His 13 yr old brother accomplished the same task in 20 minutes - two paragraphs all about himself.

I think I will look into college courses for him. I am really afraid to approach the h.s. at this point. I was hoping he would enjoy the more mature atmosphere in college, because my son is very mature, and 6 foot one inch tall.

Since visual-spatial learners thrive on complexity, I really wonder if that simple personal essay assignment was just too simple, and he couldn’t get into it. I wonder.

Your son sounds like my 8 yr. old son, and my husband. My husband is also LD. He went to community college and loved it. Ours has small classes of 30 or less, and he made friends with the professors. He always talked a lot in classes, so the professors knew he had done the reading and had a good grasp of the class. He did wind up having to tell most of his professors about his ld’s. One time a professor gave him an F on an essay test (he has dysgraphia), and the professor commented “the content and ideas expressed in this paper are so exceptional, that I have to give you an F for your extreme sloppiness and laziness in your handwriting and spelling.” When my husband told the prof about his LD’s, the prof changed it to an A. They also had a “CLAST” test at the time, in which he could not pass the essay test. (I looked at what he had written as I was an English major, and it was fine except for about 100 spelling errors and terrible handwriting. They say that they don’t grade on spelling and handwriting, but don’t believe it. He had to get educational testing (since it had been over 5 years) to prove he had dsylexia/dysgraphia.

Those were the scary experiences, but the other professors were amazing. One professor he had for several classes wrote a fantastic recommendation for my husband into law school, in which said he was one of the best students he had ever had, and what an inspiration he was to succeed so well with his learning disabilities.

He also went to law school, and had to have note-takers and extra time on written essay exams (which he did not do in undergraduate level). He was a mostly-B student at law school, which is considered good. He is now a successful trial attorney. Interestingly, the more complex and theoretical the law course got, the better my husband did (while others would barely pass).

I think the truth is that college is more of a struggle for the learning disabled, but from their experiences, they become more hard-working, motivated, and compassionate for the rest of their lives, as in my husband’s case. And now that he is working, he is getting promotions and succeeding well because of these qualities.

No guarantee, but this method sometimes works: Sit down either with a computer keyboard or a pen and paper in front of you. Tell your son “start talking.” Don’t give him any specific instructions — too much guidance, and too much reliance on outside guidance, are the problems, not the solutions! He will start saying things like “I don’t know what to talk about, I feel dumb” and so on. But sooner or later he will state a fact, like “I have all sorts of ideas in my head but I can never get them onto paper.” When he says something, write or type it. When he breaks for more than a few seconds, you say “Keep talking”. After ten or twenty minutes, you should have a page or two. Surprisingly enough, when you read it, you will almost always fond the seeds of a personal essay. After you do this a few times, he should get the idea of brainstorming an essay and can take off by himself.

A “personal essay” almost has to be written with the audience in mind, so you can give the kind of answer they’re looking for. WRiting about whales, you can state every truth you know about whales; writing about yourself is so much more subjective and wide open.

WHat kind of personal essay did you ask him to write?

The personal essay was to be addressed to college admissions, in which he was to talk about his experiences playing tennis. He plays sanctioned tournaments and has a ranking in NJ, and he’ll need an essay of this sort in about 2 years. I was surprised that he came up with nothing. He could’ve talked about his practice schedule, tournament play, and his goals, but he didn’t.

<< How is his reading — does he read aloud well? Just how weak is that spelling? Wunce upn a tim…? Rsq me? Dose thiss mak sns? >>

He speed reads, and comprehends very well. He learned to read using sight method by age 4. Always weak with phonics. He reads aloud just okay, but he mispronounces some words because of his weakness with phonics. And for the spelling, here are some errors while he writes paragraphs in his writing journal:

ground ( groun )
base (bace )
whole ( wole )
flatbed trucks ( flat beeb trucks )
convoy ( covoy )
downed ( dowed )
were ( wer )
entered ( enterd )
with ( withe )
battle ( battal )
would ( woud )
once ( wunce )
rescue ( rescou )
pieces of metal ( pices of mettel )
indoors ( indores )
hours ( houres )
does (duz, dose )
leave ( leve )
courtyard ( quart yard )
problem ( proplum )
never ( neve )
future ( fucure )
maybe ( maby )
those ( tohse )
forward ( foward )
like ( lik )
might ( migh )
paintball ( pain Ball )
features ( fetuchers )
market ( makket )
pretty ( pritty )
enough ( enfugh ) * this error is interesting!
unattached ( uttacheded )
whether (weither )
idea ( idiea )
helicopter ( helopocopter, helopter, helocoppers )

Some of these misspellings seem to be due to dysgraphia. He knows how to spell “idea” but he sticks that “i” in the word because “the pen does that - I can’t help it.”

He switches from cursive to printing, even in the middle of a word. He always used a capital “B” all the time, so he doesn’t get it confused with a “d”. He reverses letters, like in the word “those” above. He omits the last letter in a word. He switches from upper case to lower case, even in the middle of a word. There are sometimes spaces between letters, even in the middle of a word. His letters are jagged and disconnected, instead of smooth and fluid.

Some of those spelling errors are made because he is “thinking” about what to write, and therefore, he cannot “think about how to spell” simultaneously.

He appears much more intelligent if you just hear him speak, and never see his writing. He is a quick thinker, can be witty, and has a sense of humor. He fits Linda Silverman’s description of a visual-spatial learner exactly. I bought about a dozen of her articles from her website, downloaded them, printed them off.

My husband is also very intelligent, seems a visual-spatial learner also, but has spelling weaknesses, and he always thought he had LD’s with writing, but never tested. He has a Ph.D in marketing, so he learned to compensate, I guess.

I want to enroll him in community college, but I’m afraid he may fail. I’m scared to enroll him in high school, as the teachers may say “…what a pathetic homeschooled student…” I want to have him tested, because I fear failure in college. Any suggestions are really appreciated.

Kathy,

I can’t reread all the posts, but I have thought of some resources for you to use to help your son if they haven’t already been mentioned. Go to www.epsbooks.com. They have a lot of good materials for children with LD’s. Two products that would particularly help your son might be “The Spell of Words” by Elsie Rak and “Cursive Writing Skills” by Diana Hanbury King. Both are designed for students 7th grade or above so they are not babyish at all. There are also many other resources to help with critical thinking, reading, writing, etc. Just remember that it will take time, effort, and patience to remediate at this age, but improvement can be made!

Janis

Looking at your examples, he IS spelling phonetically most of the time, and that is a good sign!

The advice to go to eps and get good cursive writing books for re-teaching is probably the best thing you could do. Good cursive writing *flows* and helps keep the ideas and spelling on track. Every time your son switches styles he’s putting too much conscious thought into the mechanics and losing sight of the total.

A review of advanced phonics and word study may also help — this is a maybe, but too many people stop phonics too soon, and this is like learning the multiplication table up to the fives and saying well, you can figure out the rest. Yes, but you’re slow and inaccurate. I like to use the *Check and Double Check Phonics* from Scholar’s Choice - available online, inexpensive. Books 3 and 4 go over syllables in detail, homophones, different spellings of the same sound (like hoe, know, no, boat, though), etc. If you do every page *orally* and practice spelling the words as well as writing them in the book, this may help. No guarantees, but it has been known to help and the books are cheap. Books 3 and 4 are not babyish - just a few cartoons.

Kathy,

Has your son expressed concerns about his writing, or have you talked to him about your concerns? I know you don’t want to discourage him, but he’s old enough that I’d think he’d want to be included in decisions about remedial work, LD testing, etc. Since he does have really good ideas, I’m sure he wants to be able to share them with others, and his current writing skill will make that more difficult.

My older son has always been a late bloomer, and I can tell that things just don’t come as easily to him as they do to his younger brother. I think he would have been diagnosed with LD or dyslexia if he had gone to school for K- 2nd grade, but over time he’s made great progress, and now nobody would notice a problem. We’ve had the best success with simply practicing the basics and taking the time to really master them. Lots of phonics, then lots of phonics based spelling, daily handwriting, etc.

If you’ve already done lots of work to try and master the basic skills, then it’s probably time to do testing. OTOH, if you’ve been using a more relaxed approach with basic skills integrated in with other work, then you might ask him if he would prefer to take a few months to work on phonics, handwriting, etc. or if he would prefer to go ahead with testing. Whether or not he’s LD, he needs to recognize both his strengths and his weaknesses, and learn how to use his gifts as well as learning to recognize when he needs to work on improving skills.

Jean

I just happenned to come across your post and was very interested. Your description of your son is very similar to my son’s. My sixteen year old also is a Big Picture learner, whole to part and is also challenged by the more abstract and complex information. He cannot be bothered with details. If he is asked to write something, he will know th eanswere but is unable to support the statement with the details. He says the details are implied. He has attended a very prestigious and challenging private middle school, a private boarding school and now is in the public school system , finally classified as Other Health Impaired for ADD, inattentive type. He is miserable, not learing anything because of the fact that he does not learn sequentially. They have placed him in resource room for all his classes! Yet he is the brightest kid in the school. His teachers say they learn from him. Now that I see first hand the horrors of the public school system, I am ready to home school him. I know he will pass the GED test easily. The question is: what do I do after the GED? What have you found at the Community College. Your concerns about a survey course match my concerns. An intro course will be boring with all the details, etc. I need something that appeals to his learning style. Can you share anything new that you have come up with? Thanks for any help you can give.

In reply to your e-mail. My daughter is now 10 years old and has been
diagnosed with dyslexia and dyscalculcia when she was 8 years old. I knew
something was wrong when she first started at our School’s Nursery at the
age of 4. She has a private tutor once a week and doesn’t tend to want to
do the homework and has be practically dragged up to her bedroom to do it.
She never wants to put in much detail in the questions but when prompted she
can sometimes go over the top so to speak. Amy still spells like a 7 year
old and especially as I have an 6 year old (and just hope that Jessica
doesn’t have the same problems as Amy). There are no signs as yet that
Jessica is dyslexic. Amy has problem interacting with other children, she
takes things very personally and doesn’t want anyone else playing with her
best friend “Emma”. Last year Emma was put in the same class saying that
she was good for Amy but Emma finds Amy over the top and a bit too - let me
put in always in your face! (I hope you understand that one!).

I just wish we could send Amy to a private school like my niece whose father
is a special needs teacher there. By reading your comments I am sure you
are American in England things are very different….. Although you do have
the laws of your states with you we just have the Education Department and
the Government. Things do not seem to improve over the years even though
Tony Blair might think that its getting better and the figures are getting
better…. it certainly hasn’t improved under “Teflon Tony” (just a nickname
the papers call him because he acts like a President and wants to be a
President - nothing sticks to him!!).

Good luck

Janis