Gifted with learning disability

Gina, I have a gifted LD daughter. She currently reads at grade level and writes about the same.

We spend a lot of money on private tutoring, she uses computers a lot in school and attends the gifted classroom. She is currently in 4th grade, does well and loves school.

Gina,
My son is also labeled gifted with LD. He has done much better in home school environment since I can teach to his uniqueness and not his disability. He has a hard time writing so we do a lot of verbal questions etc. instead of making him fill out worksheets. Please check out giftedevelopment.com. This lady has a lot of experience i n dealing with these kids and a lot of good advice. There is also a checklist that is useful to see if your child is a visual spatial learner etc. Most kids with”gifts” also have a lot of weaknesses in other areas. Another website you shoulds look at is ERIC . I don’t know the whole address but I got to it by searching ERIC. Hope this helps. Janet

I believe that all children possess special gifts. Sometimes you just have to look harder and longer at some. I have had two or three “gifted” friends over to my home for play dates and could see that their intelligence was advanced and they were truyly wonderful and interesting children. But like Ball, I am concerned about labels–any kind of labels, because it is usually the parents who get the most out of them and the poor kids, gifted or not, usually misinterpret them. They often have a false sense of confidence that comes across in many social settings and especially in their interactions with other adults and authority figures–at least that has been my experience. These are often the kids who, because someone thinks (and has told them) that they are so smart, etc. don’t always “get it” when it comes to rules, manners and the values that we as parents and a nation should hold dear. I still think kids should say please and thank you, use napkins and not jump on furniture! Telling a child that he or she is gifted is fine, but be honest with them–they are not always gifted at everything they try. I don’t think schools shirk their duties when it comes to these kids, but I do think schools, parents and other professionals need to be very clear with the kids as to the exact nature of their gifts.

No, my son is not gifted academically, but again today, I had a neighbor say to me, “We worship the ground he walks on”.. an over-exaggeration, but still nice to hear and all because he will always stop and talk to her 4 year old who has just seen a bug, or a butterfly or just wants someone to pay attention to him. So please understand, gifts come in all kinds of packages–and unfortunately, unless they show up on some academic scale, often remain unopened.

Apparently you’ve been around some gifted kids with very poor manners - the fault of the parents. Both my children, average and gifted, have good manners.

Let’s see, I could expound on philosophies of labeling… or…
http://www.resourceroom.net/Surfin/index.asp#giftedld

There are some really neat, supportive parent groups sharing some of the common concerns with children with “asynchronous development.”

Leah,
I believe you may have missed the point of the message by breaker. He is not talking about manners per se, rather some obvious social skills that many “so called” “gifted” children lack. They are often misguided by those same people who give them the labels and often I think parental egos get in the mix. Letting children know that it is NOT OK to be rude, or to challenge authority on a regular basis is sorely needed by many of the kids I encountered in my 2 years as a school bus driver. While I am sure that your little girl has good manners, and this issue may not apply to her specifically, I think you might be missing the bigger picture. I think what the message breaker may have tried to get across had mostly to do with gifts of love and kindness, and you must admit, those are rare gifts among our young people today. It only gets worse in middle school. I for one„ applaud the child who is kind and thoughtful.

Ball,
It is nice to hear from parent with “old fashinoned” values. It’s hard reading some of the postings on this site because it appears so many of these parents have bought into the labels—gifted or otherwise. Why can’t we just treat this kids without the trendy labels? Altho’ I don’t agree with your “fat lip” approach, I do feel that many kids need to be held accountable by the adults in their lives. FOrtunately, my kids are all grown up, but surely suffered the slings and arrows of childhood–but nothing like the kids today!

You yourself are LD, were you ever labeled as gifted? Or are you from the earlier generation that was not as hung up on all the buzz words? Can we exchange e-mails??

Not sure about the Midol part, but most of the moms I have to deal with need a “who’s in charge, you or your kids?” reality check. I see kids, especially the ones who are labeled gifted or highly intelligent, display the most arrogant, bratty behavior toward their parents—particularly toward the moms. Gifted or not, the mothers should at least know that they are smarter than their kids, or at least more mature and responsible. I wish they would lose the weak smiles and carefully chosen words. I am not a proponent of corporal punishment either, but a good grab on the arm while little Junior is marched into the house or car or a good “out of the blue” whack to the bottom when the little tyrannts are being disrespectful or trying to run the show is in order.

Ball I do agree with this. Who needs a child that is getting an A but have no social graces whatsoever. I have 3 children 2 with special needs and I always find it strange when someone comes up and congratules me on how well behaved my children are. Is this still not expected behavior?

Lisa M.

I’m amazed too. I tell them this is not good behavior, this IS normal behavior. I am always taken aback by how some parents allow their children to behave.

It’s heartening to see this dialogue. As you may have read in previoius postings„ my son’s behavior and manners are quite good, and noticed by some. Right now I am having a problem in my neighborhood because my son needs to do his homework as soon as he gets home–before he goes out to play. He also has a math tutor once a week because this is an area of great weakness for him. Unfortunately one of the “gifted” kids in the neighborhood taunts him almost every day by ringing our doorbell during homework time, and riding his bike (along with another sibling) all around our house and making noise. He totally calls the shots at his house, or so it appears. THe worst thing is that he taunts my son every day on the bus and at school by telling him that he should know this and that, and be able to do certain mathematical operations. Little does he know how hard my son works and how expensive tutors are!! I can’t believe that parents don’t know that their kids have these types of traits and personality. My heart breaks every day.

I have a “gifted” kid who still has to come home and does her homework 1st every day and never gets to play during the week b/c it takes her so long. She also attends the gifted classroom, which I think shows the nonLD/gifted kids that you can be gifted in different areas and it doesn’t necessarily shine in the same way. We did gifted for self esteem purposes only.

Breaker,

Please don’t be offended, and you have probably already done this, but have you spoken to the principal. Why not have this child removed from the bus? I know you cannot shield you children forever, but sometimes you need to take the bull, or kid, by the horns.

This kid is not only ruling the roost at his own house, but also at yours, and on the bus. Of course his parents see his traits, most kids are products of their environment.

I was teased as a kid, not because of learning problems but because my parents were broke and I didn’t have the greatest of clothes. I remember once when I was about 9 or 10, I got off the bus one day. One of the kids that lived in my neighborhood told me that I was going to carry her books home. I politely told her I wasn’t but she insisted that I was. I started to walk home and this group of children decided to send one child after me, to hit me in the head. Well, he did and I took off for home.

As it turned out, it was the one-day my Mother was late getting home. I ran into my house and locked the door. In the mean time, the two ringleaders had come to my house and were trying to get me to open the door when my Mother pulled in the driveway. By this time I was hysterical. As my Mom was getting out of the car, the two girls took off. My Mother came running into the house, saw how upset I was, asked me what happened, and then took of after the two girls. One girl ran under the deck of my neighbor’s house and hid. The second girl, who was truly the head of the gang, tried to start walking home, but my Mother stopped her, and pretty much gave it to her both barrels. (If this happened today, my Mom probably would have been arrested) anyway, she told her to leave me alone and that if she touched me again or even looked at me wrong, my Mom would have her arrested and charged with assault. She gave her a fairly gruesome description of juvenile hall. Then she found the second girl and did the same.

I know that some parents will read this an be mortified. I must tell you, I am 30 years old and I still remember that day as vividly as if it were yesterday. I remember standing at my backslider watching my Mom and feeling so good, that my Mom was there to defend me. I realize now, that she was teaching me that no one is allowed to hurt you, with words or with their fists. She was advocating for my rights!

I am not saying go chase this kid down, but don’t let him make your son’s life miserable. I can tell you first hand what it does to a child’s self esteem, and as you know LD children have self esteem issues to begin with!!

K.

Is Michael Jorden gifted? Is Merryl Streep gifted? Is Jerry Seinfeld gifted? I have friends who are socially gifted, creatively gifted, have gifted sense of humors, mechanically gifted etc. There is one little boy in my son’s class who at the age of seven does double flips off the diving board. Everyone asks me about him when I take him to our pool. He plays a grade up in every sport and does very well. He struggles in school with an auditory processing deficit and is in sped. I have always used the term from a very broad prospective. Haven’t you ever met someone who did something that just took your breath away in the way they did it? You say that person has a gift! There really aren’t ANY people who have gifts in every area of life.

My son’s IQ was not in the gifted range, yet some of his subscores were. Some scores were just so unbelievably low.

In order to have an average or above average IQ you would need to score some areas in the gifted range if you had some scores that were extremely low. With gifts comes deficits. Mel Levine says, “Focus on the gifts.”

If you want to discuss manners, why don’t you start a new thread? Gina was asking about Gifted/Ld and you have derailed the discussion with your tirades about manners.

Thank you to Lisa, Leah, K and Ball. Your comments and support are greatly appreciated. Hopefully„ I will continue to instill enough morarality and values in my son to cope with the “bullies” of the world. It’s good to know that others are interested and understand. K and Ball, sounds llike you both have some real first-hand experience.

Annie,
YOu have obviously misread this thread or missed the point. Gina’s topic about “gifted”, LD or not, spurred a discussion about the lack of social skills exhibited by many so-called gifted kids and the problems that these labels can cause. Maybe we are not all as gifted at following threads as you are. This is an ld website isn’t it. Why do some people always feel they have to try to put others down. You sound like the kid on my son’s bus!

Geez, I thought there was an interesting discusion going on relative to gifted kids pointing out the dangers of the labeling system. I think everyone WAS trying to respond to Gina. Maybe it wasn’t exactly what she was looking for, but I don’t see that she objected. Maybe by changing the subject tag line (which I did) will help people who have a hard time following a thread or understanding the relevance of some of the issues. I’m no rocket scientist, but I got it. Wish I had more insights for Gina too, but at least she may be able to get some info from the discussion. I hate it when people are so critical and “bottom line” everything. A little slack would be the more kind and mature way to communicate.

I think that not all discussion stay with their original topic. If you view many of the discussion on all the parent board, they vary and move around a lot. I do not think there is anything wrong with veering off topic.

I too agree that maybe Gina was looking for more info on her Gifted child. Maybe she also got something out of the conversation that developed from her original post. Also, it is o.k. for people to bottom line and criticize. People should always remember the saying “Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me!” Who cares what someone else says, it only matters what you feel inside!

The discussion, the disagreements, and the help are what makes these boards special!

K.

Well said, K. I saw a sign in a kindergarten class recently with a sad looking child on it that said “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will surely hurt me.” I guess that really goes right to the point that got us off the track a little. And you are right, bottom-lining IS fine, just not always approriate. Thanks.

Some of you will really enjoy my recent dilemma with my son, who doesn’t happen to be LD so this is REALLY off topic.

My son began acting up on the school bus (now mind you, he’s also “lost his mind” at home too).

He ended up getting suspended from the bus. Gosh, I’m sorry, you got suspended, but I think YOU need to be the one inconvenienced so…
He walked to school (6 miles each way). He only had to do this one day and I called him (a mother’s heart) every 30 min on the cell phone to say where are you and are you alright).

Problem is, the silly boy (the VP at his school calls him “Slick”) made a bad decision and hopped a bus from another route.

Gosh, I’m sorry but the VP was standing there when he stepped off the bus, so he ended up being suspended from the bus for 3 more days and he had to walk. I said if you had just done what you were supposed to do and walked the first day, it would be over and b/c you made a bad choice you have to walk the rest of the week. He said, “I’m a teenager, I’m supposed to make bad choices” to which I replied, “I’m a Mother, I’m supposed to help you not make them AGAIN.”

Now, once or twice mom showed up and offered “grace”. (Getting what you don’t deserve - like God with us) and said “You deserve to walk ALL the way home and I’m going to bestow grace and give you a ride part of the way.”

End of story is that he finished his walking on Friday. I don’t think he’ll do it again and he now agrees that riding the bus is a privilege and not a right.

Tough love in action. Boy that’s HARD!

///

Leah,
You are amazing. I salute you!!!! Big time.
YOur son has no idea how lucky he is to have you instead of a parent who would blame eveybody else. Congrats.!

Sorry but I have to chime in here as far as giftedness. I am the mom of three gifted/ld students, 14, 9, 6. As far as a label it is not that these kids are better then others again it is that they are different. Yes, I believe all kids have very special gifts whether they have an IQ of 60 or 160 but, along with this label or # comes information. These kids are different and their issues are simular in some area’s as all kids with LD’s but along with giftedness comes some unique characteristics that are useful to know and in helping kids very necessary.

The idea that a label is bad I feel is troubling. All a label does is give us an understanding in language. When someone says my kid has dyslexia it gives us a starting point, it is not the end. It is just a place where we have a general understanding to begin from. For example, if you have a Dyslexic LD with a 150 IQ and another Dyslexic kid with an IQ of 90 I would hope that you would not have them both interpeting War and Peace or James and the Giant Peach. Either way you would be doing a disservice the one of these kids. That is why INDIVIDUAL education is so important. The term gifted just gives you more info on who this kid is and how best to work with them. Again, I want to stress that Gifted I do not feel is better, and my 14 year old has commented that he wishes he was average, that it would be easier for him. He doesn’t fit in, have intellectual peers, and the tasks in school in which you are rewarded are the area’s of his disabilities, so he sits in Resource Rooms with kids who are at a very different intellectual level and feels even more disabled. So what is the answer? I just think it is important to have knowledge of who these kids are if we are to help them, you need all pieces of the puzzle and giftedness is just one piece. P.S. gifteddevelopmentcenter.com is wonderful.

I understand Leah’s point entirely and admire the way you are handling the labeling in such a positive way. Just wish we could find a better way to explain things to the kids so that they can handle themselves better. My experience as a mother of two grown kids, and my experience now as a bus driver has given me perspective from a couple of different angles.

I tend to agree with Ball on the lableing as being a double edge sword too. Again last week, I observed “gifted” kids taunting and belittling a non-gifted LD kid about not being able to recite multiplication, tell time, etc. The next day, when the 8 year old LD kid talked about what he was going to ask Santa for for Christmas, one of these same kids (also a 3rd grader) informed him that there was no such thing as Santa. Mean spirited, yes, poor social skills, for sure and one sad little kid who maybe was hoping to “believe” for just a bit longer. THis may sound trivial to some, but I witness this sort of behavior a lot. It never seems to change or modify. It seems all a little treacherous and tricky to me sometimes. How do we know which kids are which you might wonder?? Other parents often discuss what should be confidential info about their kids as well as other people’s. It is just so unfair to the kids—no matter what the IQ. They are still kids. Intellectually maturity coupled with emotional immaturity is a dangerous combo if you ask me. THese kids need our attention, kindness and help fitting in before someone punches one of them in the nose (which is actually how it was handled in my day). Don’t know if this is true but I read a statistic that said that the basic “C” student makes the best employee and as adults are often twice as successful in business as former “A” students.

Dede, Yes, I have heard this same thing that the “average C” student seems to make the best employees. Here is the theory that I have heard and my NT daughter kind of expressed the same thing yesterday. The experts feel the reason you see this happen is because the “lower end students” have not been prepared to be good employess because they have not learned the basic skills, and the students who have always done well have not had competition before. You take the brightest kid in class who never had to work for good grades, this person moves to a more “stimulating” enviroment and all of a sudden they find them selves challenged by others who might actully seem “better because they are smarter or more talented.” This can be very hard for someone to learn as an adult, you are not always going to be at the top of the heap. Kids are very resilient so they learn the lesson easier. The student who never has to work hard to do well does not neccissarrily learn to work hard, push themselves, think out side the box or the like. I am not making generalizations is just a theory I have heard. My daughter last night said something similar. She had got her progress report for the semester and did not do as well as she is used to. She was sitting there punishing herself for doing so “lousy”—her lowest average was an 85 (what is wrong with that). To her what was wrong is that in our district 85 is a C. We discussed this very topic and she said “I am not use to not getting A’s”. I asked her why it was so important, she said all the kids compare grades and know how each other is doing. It gave me a great chance to discuss with her what was really important and that is she learn what she needs to, get to be a kid, be a good citizen. She then said something like this must be really difficult for the gifted kids because they “always seem driven to be the best”. She wondered how they dealt with “failure”.

I think you all have excellent points. I just wish some of the parents would get over themselves and discipline their “so called” gifted kids instead of being pushed around by them. As Ball said, kids are kids and should be treated as such. THey should not be allowed to run the show (or the household)—145 IQ or not. Parents egos and bumper stickers make me sick too. Often the “proud parent” of the honor student has no idea how mean, nasty or rude their little genius is or if they do, they ignore it or accept it.

My bottom line is this: If a kid is not gifted, or LABELED Add, adhd, or whatever, they often put them in social skills classes. It is often due to the child’s impulsivity more than anything else. THese kids usually aren’t sophisticated enough to dream up the mean-spirited tricks and taunts that the more intelligent kids do. Parent and schools need to be more aware of this type of kid and this type of bullying. It’s a passive aggressive style. Any idiot can pick out the impulsive kid who might hit someone or throw crayons. They are not the danger. They are not the makings of Columbine. Lose the damn labels, especially the “gifted” one. IT’s stupid and harmful. Just my humble oipinion.

Of course all children are gifts and gifted.

I am for the gifted kids having classes together. I think they probably get board in with the others just as much as my child gets embarrassed being in the room with them! I know it would make my child feel better being in classes with children such as he. My child is average, makes honor rolll. He does have modifications with paper work and note taking. I read to him if he had a lot of reading assignments. He does well in math and science.

There is a gifted hallway at my son?s school, 6th grade ( or so I’m told). The part that makes me SICK is when there are assemblies the GIFTED get to sit in chairs. The lowly others get the hard floor. The GIFTED get to see the governor in person, the lowly others see a film of the day he visited the school talking to the GIFTED. The GIFTED get told and shown everyday how important they are, that they are better than the lowly others. And don?t think they don?t get the message.

The gifted label is starting to make me sick. LABELS period make me SICK! There right up there with the FACT that teachers don?t read the IEP?s till six weeks after school starts, and children suffer because of it.

The education system appears to be missing the point when it comes to
SELF-ESTEEM!!! IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE. They don?t want to take the time to help my child find his gift. He?s having to spend all his time trying to keep up with their standardized way of teaching.

Okay, where?s my blood pressure medicine?

I MUST CHIME IN! i don’t usually post on these sites. so, hi i’m karen. I tend to agree with all of the comments on some level. M y son had the highly gifted/l.d. lable. Unfortunatley, the LD has been a ever looming dark cloud. I see gifted qualties often but, they are always overshadowed by my sons’s difficulty with conventional acedemics. He is creative, resourceful, hardworking, conciensios, mechanical, artistic,INSIGHTFUL. It was not unusual for me to be stopped by adults who had spoken with my son on various topics and were awestruck at his knowledge at such a young age. ex. Fighter planes, dinosaurs, birds of north america, poliization of the bumble bee- i could go on and on. Unfortunatley, school was and is another story. The teachers are not interested in how much you know about science in first grade. They ARE INTERESTED IN WETHER YOU CAN SPELL SCIENCE> WELL< MY SON COULD NOT SPELL HIS LAST NAME CORRECTLY UNTIL about 3rd grade. we shouldn’t loose site of the fact that school is only one part of life.what really makes for remarkable humane beings? They are those who consider others before themselves, they are those who serve those around them who maybe can’t do for themselves. Let’s face it any one of us may have born severely impaired,gifted, average,we have no control over these things. What we can control is what we do with what God gives us. My son was never able to attend a gifted class. He probably would have had one of highest IQS IN THE ROOM, THAT INCLUDES THE TEACHERS. Ironically. i had him re-evaluated before entering high school. HE TESTED AVERAGE… This happens with LD children frequently as they get older and don’t keep up with their peers. I still have the same kid though, he is bright, kind, resourceful. He does think differntly than most of his age pears though. and that’s where educational assesment can help us determine what is the best route of education for each individual.Hopefully when he chooses a career he will choose one that gives him an opportunity to use his brain to help others. If he ”SELLS OUT” and decides he just wants to make money.Then he had better be a knid, graciouis, and generous humane being. That’s where I put the high demand on him. And you know it works. He doesn’t get great grades, but he is a great kid. Now as a high schooler I have people stop me to congradualte me on raising an exceptioally polite, and THOUGHTFUL ”teenager”. I feel that is something I can brag about. And I compliment him every chance I get on how outstanding a job he’s doing. I can’t change the way certain teachers, and students treat him when they find out he still reads and writes like some 4th graders. People are and will remain cruel. and insencitive. it’s the ugly side of human nature. BUT THE BOY I RAISE IS NOT GOING TO BE ONE OF THEM……. i have to recommend a great read for any parent. It’s called (Sheperding a child’s heart) by Tedd Tripp

Shannon,

Well said! You give me more hope and inspiration. I just wish someone would do something about the mean-spirited kids, single them out, put them in special social skills classes like they do the LD and ADD, and impulsive kids. It seems that if you have a low IQ and are a bit impulsive, it’s a problem, but if you have a high IQ, no social skills and are impulsive, you are labeled gifted. What a bunch of bull! Your son is a trooper and someone that people will be happy to know. As far as I am concerned, many kids, especially the “gifted” ones I know need their butts kicked and a good old fashioned lesson in ettiquette.

But where is Gina. She started this thread and hasn’t chimed back in. Hopefully she was able to get some valuable insights. I know I did.

Gina,

My 12 year old son was diagnosed earlier this year, during the middle of the 6th grade in a public middle school in a town we just moved to. Having been in a parochial school from grade 2 to 5 in a very small school that went from K to 8th grade, and going to a middle school (his choice) with about 500 students was both a Godsend and a disaster.

My husband and I finally discovered that our older son has an LD in speech language processing, both auditory and written and executive functioning problems. While he has a fairly high IQ and can read at the high school level, his grades in school are all over the place depending on the teaching style and whether or not there is a good rapport between my son and the teacher.

It’s been a VERY LONG HAUL, with my husband thinking he was being lazy, not paying attention, and that my son was being a selective listener. I knew something else had to be going on because of the hours spent doing homework. Because my son was able to function in the parochial environment, albeit with a lot of negative feedback from the teachers, and my willingness or desire to protect my son from the backlash from his dad, we plugged our way through the end of 5th grade with fairly average grades.

My son is very creative, seems to be very smart, loves to build and make things, is exceptionally talented at drawing, sketching, painting, can perform magic, seems to have an understanding and comprehension of many things I do not understand. At times I’m in awe.

When we moved to our house in the neighboring town, he begged to go to the middle school in town; was very popular with all the kids in the neighborhood; had many girls interested in him. The phone rang off the hook every day after school. There were kids over here looking for him every day after school. He was extremely happy until the second or third month into school when his difficulties became so overwhelming that it became apparent that he needed help.

The school was very slow in evaluating him, and I didn’t fully understand what having an LD was about since it had never been mentioned to me. ADD was the only thing mentioned to me in 5th grade, and especially at the middle school level.

Luckily, a neighbor educated me on how the system works and advocating for my son, as well as getting an advocate to help us walk through the evaluation process. The wheels of the educational system turn very slowly, and finally in January of the 6th grade, the school psychologist suggested that my son had attention deficit, and basically suggested that I bring him to the pediatrician. The recommendations attached to her findings also mentioned medication, hiring a tutor, and finding a coach to assist my son.

Before that had occurred, I had, in total frustration, brought my son to Sylvan Learning Center where they identified what they called “gaps” in his learning, and still not realizing that he had an LD, I enrolled him there to bring his education up to his grade level. He went willingly for the entire 6 months and mastered all the tasks given to him, yet at the end of the school year, his grades were C’s, D’s and F’s. So much for that $6,000 out of my pocket.

About halfway during the Sylvan experience, the advocate came on board and upon her advice and recommendation, he was tested by a speech language pathologist and found to have a mild, but significant LD. On the pathologist’s advice, we brought him for a neuropsych evaluation where further executive functioning problems were identified. All this took till August prior to his entering 7th grade.

By this point, some of his “friends and classmates” had labeled him as stupid. He started to lose his friends; the girls lost interest; his self-esteem, which had been pummeled by my husband’s nagging, plummeted to an all time low. This was further exacerbated by the fact that he now has SPED assistance in all classes where reading and writing comprehension and organizational skills are required….basically every aspect of what is required to survive in life.

Needless to say, it has taken its toll on the family, on my son and his younger brother, and we are now just coming to grips with what this is all about. I am a working mom who freelances and our family has suffered a huge loss of income because of the time necessitated in doing homework, organization, meetings, and so on.

An IEP is in place, for what it’s worth, but I am meeting with the team of teachers and staff in a last ditch effort to get my son the education he needs in the style that he learns best. Between the four of us, we have four therapists, one for my husband, myself, the family, and the LD son. I’m advocating for his being able to use a tape recorder and to modify his plan so that he doesn’t get marked down for not passing in homework…just that he has attempted to do a part of it and that he understands the particular assignment.

I’m exploring, on the advice of the psychologist that my son is presently seeing, the possibility of sending him to a private school that caters to average to above average children with LDs in the hopes that he’ll begin to like school again and that his creative and artistic talents will be used and encouraged.

While my son has not been identified as “gifted” per se, we have seen, as have some of his teachers, that he is exceptionally creative in his thoughts and activities, and extremely artistic. He’s been told by us that he is smart and has many talents and skills and that we should strive to do those things in life and to put less focus on the things that cause him great stress and aggravation; that it’s not so important that he be able to read and understand a literary work of art, as long as he can write a sentence and that he continue to read all the topics that he does enjoy. We are interested in h is being able to read and write, know the basics in arithmetic, communicate effectively; be interested in the world around him and what he chooses for a career, and to pursue those things that he enjoys doing and is talented at.

In the meantime, I am overwhelmed with the amount of literature out there regarding LD and the impact that it has on the LD child and their families, and
very concerned that at this late stage of 7th grade, that we have caught this silent but vicious entity and that there is hope for my son’s happiness and success in life. I am also fed up with the powers that be at the school that either turn their heads the other way or selectively DON’T hear the taunting that my son endures on a daily basis.

I would really appreciate hearing from anyone who has had a similar experience.

My son Jon is in 3rd grade. At the end of 2nd grade he took the STAR test and scored a 3.8, which was great because he was reading above grade level. 2 weeks into 3rd grade he took the same test. Keep in mind that he did little reading all summer. Anyway, the first STAR test of 3rd grade came back and he had scored a 4.7 which is almost a 5th grade reading level. At conference his teacher informs me that he has missed recesses due to not listening, screwing around and wasting time, being distracted etc. I was extremely upset that I had not been told this until 3 months into the school year. I had suspected some of this but didn’t think it was as bad as the teacher was now telling me it was. Jon has always been a quick learner, he wrote his name once when he was only 1. At six months old he could put all the different shaped blocks in the square in under 30 seconds! It was and is amazing. Now that he is 8 years old he is very artistic and will draw/trace everything, an excellent reader and enjoys reading, average at math and loves to make up his own really long math problems. Knowing all this I recently got his first report card of the year. He recieved a satisfactory grade in reading, math, language, spelling, science/health, social studies, penmanship, art, and music! All subjects except one, Study Skills, which he recieved a frade of “N” for needs improvement. Maybe I’m wrong here, but how does one give a “S” for satisfactory to a child who tests in reading at almost a 5th grade level? At conference and in the teacher comments section of his report card all his teacher can say is negative things such as, “He is not a good listener, always distracted, not following directions, missing assignments, and bothering others. Missing recess and writing notes home is not working at this time. Jon has to personally want to change before it will happen.” His teacher also describes him as a “complex young man” and told me that it bothers her that he doesn’t turn in the work or study hard but that she knows he will still pass a test. I am considering talking to her again about this because I think she is putting too much emphasis on giving out check marks (so he’s in trouble) and trying to make him perfect. His grades are average yes and he could have above average grades if he pushed himself, but how important is that when all the teacher is accomplishing is making him not like her or school, making him stressed out and upset, and basically pushing him away. He has said to me when I encourage him to talk to her that she won’t listen to him. She admitted to me that she does this on purpose because he asks too many questions (some due to not listening or hearing her)and wants to “talk” to her. I need serious help here! Please! Is it me or is it the teacher?

Veronica

Okay, honestly I don’t know where to begin. It seems that every time I have a question in regards to my now nine year old daughter things are past on as being okay, but….

She is one that has trouble staying on task; she does not understand the concept of time-she lives in the moment. She has no friends, to speak of and expresses that she just “wants to be normal”. She is more “tom boy” than girlish and tends to “hang with the boys” generally.

Over the years I have expressed my concern in one form or another dating back when she was just born. She did not “cry” nor would she “look” / “gaze in another’s direction. She also did not meet major milestones on time or in correct sequence as my older daughter or as is considered by her physician in regards to other children put into the percentage categories.

Now this is a very active child. She sings and can imitate a song to perfection. Singing tends to give her relaxation. Her voice is and I have been told that she sounds exceptional over the years by one person or another. In my mind she is an auditory learner, yet is her singing a way to relax or do they go hand in hand.

Preschool was a nightmare, and basically they “let” her stay, as I was a paying participating parent in a “cooperative preschool”.

Pre-Kindergarten was a “holy nightmare” at the Catholic School. Sister Mary _ _ _ _ _ _ cornered me one day and complained that my daughter “refused to do things twice”. For example right spelling words three times. Well low and behold I new that because my daughter had let me know in ways at home that when she did it right once, she was done, in her mind that is. Yes, our family adjusted to my youngest daughter; there is no doubt.

Kindergarten was worse yet, except I had met a mother of a son in her class who would invite my daughter over for outings etc. as not to exclude her as was now beginning to become the “norm”. Also, one can not un-include the fact that I had become separated from her father when she was just four months old, and was working a job that required me to be away from home twenty four hours at a time for a minimum of seventy two hours a week. So I tended to “blame” myself on my daughters actions and troubles, not her most of the time if not all the time. Her teachers I continued to struggle with. A sentence i remember, from my daughter, “please, open up it”, rather than “open it up”.

In first grade I did move my daughters and myself a number of states away and enrolled them in school. This school system spends many hours preparing their kids for their state testing, which equals more money for the system. Odd but her first grade teacher was a special education teacher, who even though I approached her requesting “testing” to see what was going on. Similar to my questioning the family physician. It took months and much prodding on my part and many disruptive complaints along with non-listening complaints. I also would not help matters as I would tell the teachers that she has repeated ear infections and asthma, which at times does hinder “hearing”. Again, I blamed or tried to offset a situation by saying that I thought there were multiple issues going on in my daughter’s life. Thier Grandmother passed away, we moved to a new location, issues with their father, health concerns. They in turn felt I was “just not stern enough with my daughter and too complacent. Btw, my daughter still could not read, and refused to even listen when it came to “reading time” nightly at home. By the end of first grade she was tested and it was assumed that she had LD with behavioral problems. An IEP was written, some of my suggestions on modifications were accepted others were not. I was just glad to have “help” and not knowledgeable about the “what to do’s or the what not to do’s ” and was glad.

By second grade I thought school was never going to work for my daughter. She couldn’t read, and socially she was an outcast. We had a teacher who came into the situation with a large amount of experience, who offered techniques and suggestions that were positive and proved to be totally successful for my daughter. It actually was a “good” year in my mind for my daughter.

Riding on that success we rode into third grade full of confidence only to have it shattered many times throughout the year. I should have known at the first IEP meeting when she said she had nothing to contribute as she had not had enough time to adapt to her current classroom as a whole. It turns out that not to her own fault but her own small child that year was sick repeatedly, which required many days out of the classroom with multiple “substitute teachers”. My daughter struggles with change but when she called me from work one day begging me to come get her I did just that. It turns out that she had “four subs” in one day. I would assume for even the “regular kid” that it was a struggle. My daughter was almost held in from recess for leaving the class without permission and accessing the phone system and calling me. Now there I put my foot down. She was in trouble, couldn’t seem to get the help and took it upon herself to “call for help”.

Fourth grade has had its ups and downs. Most recently we had a total meltdown for my daughter. She paid for her mistakes by being held inside and having to make up work for which she refused to do. Her teacher’s, principal and Special Education teacher were all involved along with the behavioral assistant that day, along with myself. We all made mistakes, yet ironically my daughter was “assessed punishment”. The situation excalated that day to a point where they felt it necessary to “hold her down and lock her in a room”. When they called me I was told that my daughter was having a rough day but the behavioral assistant was in with her. At no time was I called and told that any one felt uncomfortable with any change in events. I had called back requesting to speak with the Special Education teacher and told by the principal I would not be able to speak with her as she was in with other students. I informed the principal I would come to the school when it ended then and speak with the teacher. I assumed that my daughter would be put on the “art center” bus for her afterschool program. I arrived to find my daughter underneath a table crying. Visual observation on my part immediately I became upset and even enraged. When the principal approached me to reproach me for my daughter behavior I in turn told her I was taking my daughter home and when I had reached a calming state I would be then willing to talk to them all. In the truck on the way home, my daughter through tears told me that they “locked her in a room, and she felt like she couldn’t breath and just had to get out. She tried to get out and was told that the police could be called to come and take her away.” Bottom line I had a meeting the following Monday, odd but only with the principal and the special education teacher. After the meeting I sought out the IEP individually trying to get to the bottom of the situation. Yes, my daughter refused to do her work. She shut down verbally and refused to re-enter her situation. She is at fault for that. Yet, don’t ever shut my daughter in a room and tell her that You are going to call the police. Why the heck didn’t they call me, I could have at least put an end to a situation that from what I understand lasted almost three hours.

I called an IEP meeting. It went okay. A behavior modification measure was asked to be instituted. Except no one is using it. Not my daughter, not the teachers, nor the special education teacher. Today three notes came home in regards to behavior that occurred in the am. Oddly enough, she was struggling with a punishment of not being able to go outside from Friday, which she had no clue about. At lunchtime, this Monday. While brushing her teeth after lunch she refused to go with the principal to the lunchroom to “sit”, she didn’t believe she had done anything wrong. In turn she was taken by the arm, “pinched she says” and guided towards the room/office “they locked her in”. She broke away, and went to the computer lab and called me. I in turn did calm her down and followed the behavior plan that they suggested. Her afternoon was fine. Thing is she came home with three letters of behavior disciplines that now remove her from “going outside” and she is to “sit” alone during lunch.

My daughter is having her “three year IEP” re-eval performed now. She also is set for an appointment from her family physician for a “complete ADHD” evaluation. The Art Center believes that my daughter is an undiagnosed possible “Asperger and or High Functioning Autism person with ADD. Her physician believes ADHD. I feel like I am drowning just barely holding my head up and she is struggling day to day. She really is a good kid with a good heart. Not a “bad kid” either. Her social skills are not good. I try daily with instruction, role-play, words from the heart; we all are constantly trying here. I am at a loss now. Over the years I have sought help, asked for help, sought out information even, and made suggestions and comments on how to react, adapt to my daughter. I tend to blame myself first, then my daughter, and finally the school system/ health system, i also blame my ex husband and his personal issues as well, but I am beginning to wonder. Bottom line I don’t want her “written off”.

Thanks any help would be appreciated. I know this was long winded and to apologize as well.

Veronica

I would see about your son begin evaluated for the gifted program.

Hi Lisa,
both of my children have pdd-nos, but your daugther sound EXACTLY like my son, who has been pulled out of school for homeschooling ( see other thread, “frustrated mom”) My son was not diagnosed with pdd-nos ( AKA high functioning autism) My pediatrition thought adhd but here is an interesting articile about that… Hope this helps….. Also, as with my son, learning disabilities, giftedness, and pdd-nos are OFTEN together, so it could be very possible.

DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN ADHD AND PERVASIVE DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDER (PDD)

One factor that often complicates the accurate diagnosis of ADHD is the need to rule out other conditions as a better explanation for the child’s symptoms. For example, children with mood disorders, anxiety disorders, or learning disabilities can sometimes display a pattern of symptoms that resemble ADHD. Diagnostic errors can occur unless a careful evaluation to rule out these alternative explanations for a child’s symptoms has been made.

In young children especially, pervasive developmental disorders can sometimes be confused with ADHD. The category of pervasive developmental disorders includes several different diagnoses including autism, Asberger’s Syndrome, and a residual category labeled Pervasive Developmental Disorder - NOS (i.e. not otherwise specified). The latter is reserved for children whose symptoms do not fully match the more specific diagnoses in this category and is generally associated with less severe impairment than the other diagnoses in this group.

Distinguishing children with ADHD from high-functioning children with PDD-NOS is probably one of the most difficult differential diagnoses to make. As a result, a number of children with PDD-NOS may be misdiagnosed with ADHD and treated inappropriately as a result.

The authors of a study appearing in a recent issue of the Journal of Learning Disabilities attempt to provide a set of research based guidelines to help with this difficult and important distinction (Roeyers, H., Keymeulen, H., & Buysee, A. (1998). Differentiating ADHD from Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified. Journal of Learning Disabilities, 31, 565-571.) In this study, 27 children with ADHD were matched with 27 children diagnosed with PDD-NOS on both chronological age and IQ. These children had been diagnosed with PDD-NOS or ADHD based on an extensive and rigorous diagnostic evaluation.

The parents of these children were then interviewed to learn about any pregnancy and/or birth complications, and were also asked to provide detailed information about their child’s development between birth and age 4. The goal was to identify factors that reliably distinguished between children in the two groups in the hope that this would aid clinicians involved in making this differential diagnosis. The results can also be helpful to parents who may have concerns about whether the diagnosis of PDD-NOS may apply to their child.

An extensive questionnaire was developed by the authors for parents to complete. The first part of the questionnaire included items asking about pregnancy and birth cmplications. The second portion included over 100 items that asked about a child’s functioning in 12 broad areas including feeding, sleeping, toilet training, activity level, communication, motor development, social development, social behavior, information processing, behavior problems, play, stereotypic (i.e. unusually repetitive) behaviors, and anxiety. Parents were asked to rate whether or not a specific problem applied to their child in 6 different age periods: 0-3 months, 4-6 months, 7-12 months, 13-24 months, 25-36 months, and 37-48 months.

They were also asked when they first suspected that something was wrong with their child, and at what age their child received his or her final diagnosis. The main results of this interesting and important study are summarized below.

PREGNANCY AND BIRTH COMPLICATIONS

There were no significant differences in pregnancy complications between the two groups. Overall, about 25% of mothers reported problems during pregnancy. A significantly larger percentage of cildren with ADHD were reported to have exhibited “extremely loud” crying immediately after birth (32% vs. 9%).

0-3 MONTHS Virtually no differences between children in the 2 groups were reported by parents for the first 3 months of life.

4-6 MONTHS During this period, parents of children with PDD-NOS reported that their child had shown significantly more behavior problems than were reported by parents of children with ADHD. The single item responsible for this difference was that children with PDD-NOS were more likely to be described as having been unresponsive to social stimulation (63% vs. 20%). In other words, these children were recalled by their parents as having been more difficult to engage and interact with, and to be more in their “own world”.

7-12 MONTHS Children with ADHD were reported to show more hyperactive behavior during this period than children later diagnosed with PDD-NOS. Children with PDD-NOS continued to be seen as less responsive to social stimulation.

13-24 MONTHS Children with ADHD were recalled as displaying more “reckless” behavior during this period. Children with PDD-NOS continued to be seen as less responsive to social stimulation. In addition, their parents were more likely to report that their child had displayed motor tics and indications of excessive anxiety. The parents of children with PDD-NOS also recalled that their child experienced difficulty understanding gestures and emotions, and did not show any symbolic play (i.e. pretend or make-believe play). It should be noted that although children with ADHD were described as more “reckless”, differences in overall activity level between the 2 groups was no longer significant. Thus, differences in “hyperactivity” between the groups seemed to disappear after the first year as children with PDD-NOS became increasingly active. This is important because it implies that in older children, one can not rely on hyperactivity alone - one of the core symptoms of ADHD - to differentiate between children with ADHD and children with PDD-NOS.

25-36 MONTHS Children with ADHD continue to be recalled as having been more reckless. Children with PDD-NOS continue to be recalled as less responsive, less able to understand emotions and symbolic gestures (e.g. facial expressions), more likely to show motor tics, and more anxious. In addition, parents of children with PDD were more likely to report that their child was experiencing difficulty with peer relations during this period (89% vs. 42%).

37-48 MONTHS The two groups continued to differ on the factors described for the 25-36 month period.

OTHER DIFFERENCES In addition to the differences noted above, parents of children with PDD-NOS reported being aware earlier on that something was wrong with their child. Among the parents in this study, the mean age at which they first became concerned about their child’s development was 13 months. For parents of children with ADHD, in contrast, the average age was 38 months - more than 2 full years later.

Parents of children with PDD-NOS also experienced more difficulty in the evaluation and diagnostic process. On average, children with PDD-NOS were not diagnosed until an average of 48 months from when they first reported concerns to a health care professional. For children with ADHD, an average of 20 months elapsed between parents’ initial report of concerns and the final diagnosis.

CONCLUSIONS AND IMPLICATIONS This interesting and important exploratory study suggests that among very young children and older preschoolers, the most consistent factors to differentiate children with ADHD from children with PDD-NOS is that children with ADHD engage in more reckless behavior. Children with PDD-NOS, in contrast, are more likely to appear socially unresponsive, to experience difficulty in understanding emotions and symbolic gestures, and to display motor tics and high levels of anxiety. After the first year of life, differences in activity level may not be found.

Misdiagnosing a child with ADHD when he or she really has PDD-NOS can have important negative clinical implications. Stimulant medication is more likely to be effective in children with ADHD, and it may even exacerbate symptoms in children with PDD.

Non-medical approaches will also often be different for children with these diagnoses. For a child with PDD, it is generally believed that effective treatment requires high parental involvement, a structured approach characterized by high predictability in the environment for the child, and a focus on the development of basic socialization skills (e.g. getting and staying engaged with others, being able to take part in reciprocal interactions), communication training, and the generalization of these skills so that the child can apply them with different people. Note that the primary focus is on helping the child to develop the basic building blocks for effective interpersonal relating - i.e., being able to tune in to others in a more sustained and consistent way.

For preschool children with ADHD, there is typically a greater focus on helping parents learn child management techniques, providing a structured preschool environment where there are clearly established rules and consequences, helping children develop self-control, and, medication if the child’s symptoms are too difficult to manage after behavioral measures have been implemented. The focus on basic engagement and reciprocal interaction skills would generally not be needed. Thus, a child who really has PDD-NOS rather than ADHD would not be likely to get the help he or she needs in this crucial area. Also, because PDD-NOS is likely to be associated with more significant and ongoing impairment in social relations, parents of a child who is misdiagnosed may have unrealistic expectations for how their child will respond to treatment.

I think this is an important study in that it provides a timely reminder about early aspects of a child’s social development that need to be considered in a thorough evaluation for ADHD.

If you are a parent of a child who has been diagnosed with ADHD, and have concerns/questions about whether PDD-NOS may be a more accurate diagnosis for your child’s problems, than it would REALLY be important to consult with an experienced child mental health professional or a developmental pediatrician. I would suggest consulting with a professional who has extensive experience in children’s early social and emotional development, and who has worked with children who have pervasive developmental disorders.

Such a professional is most likely to be able to provide you with the information and answers you need to know about how to best help your child.

David Rabiner, Ph.D. Licensed Psychologist Duke University http://www.helpforadd.com

oops, I MEANT to say, he was not diagnosed with pdd-nos UNTIL he was SEVEN! Sorry, looks like he was not diagnosed by what I typed!

Back to Gina’s request.You need to learn more about why your child writes on a lower level than he or she reads, what exactly the teacher means by elementary level and gifted, and if his/her comprehension is on a high school level. Assuming that your child has trouble composing, organizing, and developing his thoughts, you may want to have the teacher or a tutor help your child develop an outline before writing. A good computer program to help do that is Inspiration. The child brainstorms ideas and develops a graphic organizer and the computer puts it into an outline. Then the child can create sentences. Also teach your child to ask himself, “So what?” and “Says who?” when he proofreads. Then add the sentences to support what he has written. Have your child proofread out loud to you or a teacher, so these ideas can be added.

One other thought: a lot of “processing problems” are frequently a result of an ADHD child’s inability to control impulsive jumping from thought to thought when writing. My son says he can’t hold a thought in his head long enough to write it down or expand it before he’s off to another thought, so his writing is like swiss cheese. I used the above techniques with him and in my class. One other thing really helped him: appropriate medication. Medication isn’t a dirty word… if it is necessary. It can make all the difference. See a doctor about it and read the latest NIH research.
Good luck
Fern (special ed English teacher, textbook author, and mom

Way to go!!! My son was 19 when he stopped taking his meds at college, didn’t do his work and failed two classes, dropped on, and passed one. We sat down with his LD counselor and examined what happened. We developed strategies to help him complete his work. I reminded him that I had made a schedule for him to structure and plan his days so he wouldn’t forget or miss assignments… like he did in high school. Then I told him that if he blew the next semester, he was to come home, get a job by July, and pay rent. If he failed to do that, he had to leave home. I offered him airfare to live with his grandmother in Florida if he needed. Boy was that hard. He is now in community college, working nights, and doing very well. He even cleans his room… occasionally.

I teach 13 & 14 year olds. When they get in trouble at school, they all say. “She or he gave me a referral!” and I answer, “No, you did something to get that referral. What will you do instead next time the situation comes up?” My other favorite is the whine, “I don’t know these words!!” during the vocabulary test. so I ask them, “Did you do the vocab. homework this week?” When they say,”No.” I ask, “So whose fault is it that you don’t know the words?” They are all doing their homework before the test now!!

I got all excited when I saw this sections, and now I’m left disapointed.

It seems as though many of you who have posted here resent the “gifted” lable. Okay, I know, there are people out there who get their egos involved and act like their kids are better then everyone, which is wrong. And all kids do have special gifts.

But there are parents like me, whose child is LD and gifted. I’m not putting my ego in there, from the test scores it’s a fact. I have this kid who is so frustrated that he is way ahead of kids his age but at the same time has output difficulties. His giftedness compensates for his LD, and so teachers don’t believe either exsist. I’ve had schools try to lable him as ADHD for traits that are common to gifted children. I don’t see him as better then anyone, but I am only looking for support and advice from other parents. My husband is dyslexic and has fought all his life to be taken seriously. He’s also highly intelligent. I came to this site all excited that I’d find someone who understood, not expecting to have to defend my child.

People don’t mind when kids are labled as gifted athletically or muscially. I don’t see why I should be feel like I should have to hide the fact that my child is gifted intellectually, nor feel bad about it. I am proud of my child, no matter WHAT he is.

I have never felt that my child deserved special treatment or should be excused for bad behavior simply because of his intelligence. I expect the same from him as I would any child. The problem for him is that because he’s so articulate, people simply expect more of him. Come on, he’s seven-just because he talks like a 14 year old don’t expect him to act like it! I also don’t expect him to “know better.” He is seven. And he is treated like he’s seven. I have also been told what a polite and friendly child I have. Repeatedly.

If you are so sick of YOUR LD child facing labels and stereotypes, don’t do the same thing to other parents. Maybe those nasty, snotty parents were YOUR experience. But don’t paint us all with the same brush, OR our children.

I think the reply of look for gifted kids in varous areas not just acedemic. I would like to add I have LD and have horror stories of my highschool yrs and I have very strong emotions when I see the support kids with LS are getting today. I have VERY strong parents that at times FORCED my education in the tradional schools of the US. I really like the piont we all have special gifts, I did not excell in school college was much easier but I choose a differnt path I took off and basicall traveled the world learning from this forum. I have had a good fortune of doing well in the tech industry but again have shot of into the arts and have found my place, I just want to remind parents to encourege your children to grow in many ways and let them explore there great desires becuase this truly will make them excell in life and again you might be taken back from what that child may do with himself with the support from you. Good luck to all and remeber this is a great world we live on and go and grab on to your dreams!

Shawn :wink:

I think many gifted people also have learning differences. To help such children, it can help to explain that being good in some things - even being great at some things - doesn’t mean we get to be great at every thing. I’d be sympathetic to the likely frustration such children can feel when they struggle to do something.

But the greatest question always is - how to help them in the strange place that school can be? Your son sounds like he has a wonderful teacher and that puts him way ahead of the game. With such understanding teachers and a clearly very caring parent like you, the gap between his writing and his reading will probably grow smaller over the years. In the meantime, let him dictate to you or another willing typist to help him express himself at the level his excellent reading deserves.

For people who are gifted and talented yet experience difficulty reading and writing, Ron Davis’ book ” The Gift of Dyslexia” may be helpful. Some students think in pictures, three dimensionally which is the gift yet when they have to read and write which is one dimensional, they may demonstrate dyslexic symptoms. Ron’s book shows training to help with this. He himself is an electrician and sculptor but could not write. He has developed a program which parents could use on their own to help their child by reading his books. He has a new one out on add, math and handwriting. I found this work fascinating. He also has a website and a forum for people to exchange ideas, successes etc. regarding this program. Check it out and keep an open mind. Keep looking until you find the proram, techniques that work for your child. Also check out PACE.
Good Luck. Mary Pat