ball

Okay Ball, I’m going to respond to your rhetoric.

“Disabled is really an ugly word when applied to human beings.” Agreed, it is an ugly word.

“The other thing LD is only a lable,created for parents who are pissed that Johnny is not the smartest kid in the class.”
What??!!! Johnny may very well be the smartest person in the class! What is your definition of LD? Do you know that LD means that you have average to above average IQ? MY IQ is 140 and that is inclusive of psychological processing defits. Johnny was “smart” until he went to school.

“The LD tag makes him feel like a loser and in some cases helps parents justify bad parenting.”
Wow! I have never, I repeat never heard of “bad parenting” as a cause of LD.

“LD is an inaccurate term for a problem with how the brain operates.
The idea that a person is learning disabled is an inaccurate lable that pretends to desribe a mafunction of the brain. A better and more accurate “label” would be learning impaired. “

“LD” people learn so their ability to learn is not disabled.”
What is better about the Label “Learning Impaired”? “
Synonymous: learning impairment = learning disability I will say it again, it does not matter what the label is. The new label for mentally retarded is Mild Intellectually Delayed. But most people still say “retarded”. Some people have “Down’s Syndrome”, but many people still call them “Mongoloid”. The label matters not. It is just a frame of reference. And yes they can and do learn, just in different ways than the “norm”. I tell my students that they are gifted, but unfortunately paper and pencil tasks often do not reflect their gifts.

”Junk science, Neuro science, pseudo science you pick it. LD, ADD, ADHD, What is the cause? Do the experts know? What part of the brain is involved?.”
Well, yes Ball, the neuro scientists do know the parts of the brain that are involved. And no, they are not really sure of the etiology of LD and ADHD. It is quite complex, and yes it could be a result of the toxins in our environment. Then again, all people function differently than each other. The LD people don’t function well on certain tasks. However, The LD and/or ADHD people may have been the hunters in prehistoric time, rather than the gatherers. Who knows why some people are “wired” the way they are. Why are some people super geniuses when their parents have average IQ’s? Some questions in life may never be answered.

“P.T. Barnum is alive and well and the reason you believe him is because you are in desparate need of a disreet solutions to a problem.”
That is so funny. Even if I knew what the heck you meant! Obviously someone has hurt you very badly for you to be so bitter.
I went through my academic career without anyone knowing anything about LD/ADHD. So, I was called a lot of much worse labels: lazy, ditzy, dingy, scatterbrained, stupid, irresponsible, nuts, insubordinate etc. I’d rather be called LD or ADHD in a heartbeat. Also, my history of doing things backwards and having way toooooo much energy goes back to when I was 3 years old. I was raised in the 50’s on mostly fresh vegetables, fresh seafood, whole grain, no soda’s, and little preservatives. So, my diet was exceptional. Although I agree that diet can play a role in ones thought process and behavior, and some people with “disorders” do well with just dietary intervention, others do not. It is their prerogative if they wish to take medications to even out certain brain chemistry to enable them to learn or perform at an optimal level in a society where they are not the “norm”.

Ball, I am so happy that I found this forum. Yes, many of us are frustrated with different agencies and services. And we have a right to be frustrated. But believe it or not, though few and far between, there are some really good programs and advocate organizations that do and continue to help people. I think it is up to us to help get more quality programs in more places, and available to more people. Peace.
Georgia

QQ what started BALL rolling was AAs query about help from voc rehab. And yes Georgia I’m bitter and I’m angry and so should you and QQ be. How many people walk away politely from voc-rehab with nothing but frustration? I can’t believe their level of incompetence is by accident. A stranger on the street would be more helpful. I’m not trying to offend anyone who has LD or any other disorder and I am not minimalizing or doubting your symptons or suffering.The fact that it is so difficult to get help is not because of you or your symptoms. It is because the entities that are supposed to help don’t but yet they still get a check. You’d think somebody would do something, but they don’t. I think voc rehab types are bullies on a power trip. To seek help from people who do more harm than good is insane. To continue doing the same thing and expect different results is even more insane. Yes QQ I’m am pissed but I ‘m not a voc rehab counselor. Are you? Your statement was mean and arrogant so you have the raw materials to be one.Maybe if more people got pissed and stayed pissed and directed their anger towards the heads of the voc-rehab agencies maybe they’d think about doing their jobs. Is the current system a success? And Georgia in your heart of hearts do you believe that the AMA, APA and the drug makers put peoples interests before profit. Even if I am wrong in all my assertions you may want to at least consider them. They may lead to correct answers.Bottom line is, children with learning difficulties grow into adults with learning difficulties who get don’t get help. I believe we should look into every possible reason to WHY NOT. Instead of focusing on what appears obvious because obviously that is not working. PS qq you may benifit from an enema but try sticking the tube in your ear. love ball

There is plenty to be bitter about, if you choose that path. However, It keeps one from finding — or even seeing — good ideas and good people. It also takes much less courage to spout angry rhetoric than to support other people.

I agree wholeheartedly. I would like to know how old you are Ball, and what you do. My guess is that you are a male maybe in your late 20’s? Have you been labeled LD? Hopefully, eventhough, yes in 48 years I have been hurt and disappointed, hopefully the experience and the “maneas” (latin for steadfast and a ggggma’s maiden name) of those of us who have been around the block on our “super racers with no brakes” can help you find answers along with our own. You seem very passionate and could be of great benefit if your passions were directed in a way to help others. But I agree, “bitterness can be very disabling”. But I also feel that progress was never made without stating at the complaint level… now is the time to brainstorm and come up with solutions, try the solutions and find some that work or at least help. I’m not even looking at the solutions for my self, as I’ve come this far with very little help, however there are and will continue to be children in our school systems who suffer and grow up to continue to have problems in the beaurocratic jungle. It is those children now in the future we should be most concerned about. Maybe the answer is having more LD adults in the professional careers who deal with LD people. This would take a LOT OF WORK ON OUR PART and alot of tears. But it may be the solution. Think of the blood, sweat and tears of the Civil Rights Movement and the Women’s Movement. Positive solutions that is what is needed.
Georgia

Georgia & AA, a place to start would be writing to Voc Rehab dept heads, state senators & assembly men, your congressmen senators governor. If your congressman tells you it is not a federal issue let him know that state VRs rely mostly on federal money but have no accountability to the feds or anyone. Actually I see acountbility as most of the problem. The more voc rehab fails the more money they get so ina sense they get rewarded for failure.
Georgia I’m about your age but Peter Pan and Don Quixote tend to emerge from time to time. I’ve gooten to the point that I enjoy stepping on the toes of bullies. I’ve always been irreverant especially around people that take themselves to seriously.
I did not invent the term LD. I think I know what learning meanss but the word disabled means incapable and to me that is an insult. I’d rather be called lazy or stupid because that is a condition I can do something about. Disabled means useless nonfunctioning, broken. Perhaps this is semantics but if some expert is going to put a lable on me I want it to be accurate.

Accountable to guidelines would be a start AA. Fiscal acountalility. Accountable to the law. Voc Rehab makes it’s own rule wich it doesn’t often follow. Would picketting a Voc Rehab office open some eyes? How about letters to the editor? In NY nobody likes VESID our VR agency. Even people who are not disabled hate them. I think help for the disabled and particularly those labled LD should come in the form of something like affirmative action because we are indeed disadvantaged and through no fault of our own.
If your state is like NY then your VR agency probably stinks at helping anyone inspite of their disability. Again I don’t believe the level of incompetence of VR is an accident. I learned a long time ago that if something that should have an obvious explanation does not then if you follow the money you will usually get the answer. It just seems that getting “LD” folk gainfully employed shouldn’t be that difficult if a little commonsense and compassion were aplied to the problem.
AS far as me being angry is concerned, I can think of a few that were a lot more pissed than me… George Washington, Thomas Payne and Thomas Jefferson. They believed King George was a tyrant. Ball believes Voc Rehab is.

Ball may have some personal issues, but it doesn’t excuse being such a flaming @!#$ about everything.

Tim what VR do you work for? Or are you one of their vendors? Are you worried that someone is going to stop the gravy train for theose of you who exploit the disabled for profit. Maybe you work for some “non profit “org that won’t bite the hand of of the VR agency that feeds it. So did I touch a nerve? I hope so. I often wonder what a VR counselor would do if he lost his job. They don’t have enough integrity to sell crack, used cars, or pimp. They wouldn’t be smart enough to be a lawyer. So Tim, what do you do? Does it make you nervous when someone questions the status quo?

I don’t work in the social services field at all. I’ve got LD’s & ADD, and have dealt with VR in my state before on more than one occasion.

If it’s a state agency, no one’s deriving profit. And witlessly frothing here about them and being derisive to us doesn’t do a thing except demonstrate your capacity to be annoying and nasty.

You sure as hell arn’t showing much of a grasp of how to achive your goals. If you have such issues with these people you need to address them with people who can do something about it, like the government officials responsible for the agencies oversight, either on a local or a federal level.

Your attitudes and nasty communication are no ones fault but your own, and you give the impression of being a snotty poorly socialized 13 year old. You give the apperance that your only purpose on these boards is to start arguments with people and be totaly nasty, perhaps in some effort to vent your frustrations with your obviously dysfunctional coping strategies.

If you really belive that VR’s are the spawn of all evil, that LD’s are some sort of BS scam or lie that people came up with to get over on others, and that these problems arn’t really true and are somehow false labels that people who have them & the people who actually care about them came up with to lie to everyone else about for whatever sleazy purpose they might have, then I suggest you go hunt down an Aryan Nations web board, because they’re the type of people who’re going to share your hate and ignorance.

TIM, what part of fiscal responsibility don’t you understand? What am I ignorant about? Let’s see some numbers on how VRs are performing. Let’s look at their books. Tim you gotta be associated with voc rehab because you are absolutely clueless. Maybe the VR in your state is ok but in NY these people make the DMV look like saints. So rest your public service pea brain and save your racist crap for your next KKK meeting.

YOU GOTTA WORK IN VOC REHAB TIM OR PERHAPS YOUR MOMMY AND DADDY DO. ANYWAY YOU GOT THE RIGHT STUFF. TO. CERTIANLY YOU KNOW ALL THEIR REHTORIC AND EXCUSES. IF BY CHANCE YOUARE NOT A VOC-REHAB COUNSELOR YOU ARE CERTIANLY THEIR LACKEY. YOU MAY TELL PEOPLE THAT BROWN SPOT ON YOUR NOSE IS A SUNTAN BUT WE KNOW DIFFERENT. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR NEXT POSTING, AFTER ALL FERTILIZER MAKES THINGS GROW.

Thank you, thank you, Tim! You hit the nail on the head about Ball. He’s starting these arguments only thinking that he’s being intellectual. He’s not being productive. He’s wasting valuable time that he could be using to research and find people who can hold VR’s accountable. Fiscally! I’d like to see ball find those anwsers and post them. I think we all have an idea about how he feels. Now how about some proof of what he’s saying. I’m not going to respond to him unless he brings up legitimate issues to this bb and conducts himself in a civil manner. But it alright to feel angry.

In NY state fiscal responsibility lies with Lawrence Gloeckler the deputy comissioner of education. He is directly in charge of VESID, NYs voc rehab. Tim & Jen who is in charge of VR in your state. I called and wrote Gloeckler many times and got stone walled. I’d like to hook him to a polygraph. Get it through your heads VR is a scam. If it weren’t a scam it wouldn’t suck so much. There’s a book called public sector available in most libraries. It name agency and department heasd for all state county and local governments. Let’s see how forthcoming your VR is. Unlees ther facts and figure are varified by an independent body thenyou should assume they are self serving.

TIM & JEN, HOW DO YOU THINK VR CAN BE REFORMED? I DON”T THINK IT CAN.

An Open Letter To All Who Have Followed This Chain;

Although at first I did not think that I would impose an opinion, I “hear” more than a couple of pretty significant mistakes going on, and so, have decided to butt-in where I probably don’t belong;

1. Anger is not a bad thing -until or unless we hurt others
2. Political advocacy is good
3. Name-calling is always a very bad thing to do
4. Many of us, because of who we are, tend to be inflamatory, (it is my belief that this is one of our many symptoms).
5. Being inflamatory is not a bad thing
6. We LD adults spend so much of our lives either being attacked, or feeling like we have been attacked, that we sometimes end up like boxers in the ring who do not realize that the bell has already rung, either being overly defensive and/or aggressive.
7. When we attack each other, we are only doing what psychologists call,
“identifying with the aggressor”, (it is why prisoners are so cruel to one another).
This is a psychological defence mechanism.
8. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion
9. Services to us LD adults are not poor because people do not care. They are poor because our symptomology, and therefore our needs are not as yet fully understood.
10. My best advice, (unsolicited as it might be), is to agree to disagree, but to not lose either your perspective or your compassion for one another. In other words, it’s time to kiss and make-up, or at least shake hands.

Rob

[email protected]

Adult and children with ld ADD are being are being exploited by VR and it’s various agencies, schools, doctors, and the drug companies. So many resources so little help. what would Ralph Nader think? Do people benefit financially from our difficulties. Are many of us satisfied with their brand of help. The reason people think the drug companies are greedy bastards is because they are. Trash me all you want you won’t kill this messenger. I’m sorry that the world is a dung heap and most people are uncaring selfish and unkind but that’s the only world we got. Do you honestly think that in a world where Catholic preists rape children with impunity anyone is gonna give a crap about you and your problems? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SEWER. Two things motivate people; fear and money and in that order. This is a no brainer.Even a learning impaired person could understand that.

Name calling is a lot like labeling. If the shoe fits, wear it. Does gold bricking slug describe VR people? Does greedy scumbags describe many members of the medical industry. Yeah it’s probably a good idea that more SSRIs get swallowed everyday than vitamins. We are being lied to but thats OK. The problem is most of us believe it. Who really has your best interest at heart?

I have written to all my elected officials regarding the failings of VR. More people need to write. VR is a scandal. VR is a digrace. VR should be eliminated and something that works put in it’s place. Inspite of what your congressman may tell you this is a federal issue because it effects Americans and VR is funded federally.

Vr doesn’t suck by accident. It sucks by design. We allow it to suck by walking away with our collective tails between our legs. Go after those pukes with a vengence. Ruin their days. Raise their blood pressure. Fight dirty. Show them no honor no respect and no mercy. Look how you’ve been treated.

A female friend of mine got screwed over by a car dealer. She asked that I go with her to help resolve the problem. She had owned this car for less than 2 days when it died. She was totally in the right legally with her demands for repair a loaner and to recind the deal and get her old car back. The car dealer wouldn’t budge even though they knew they were in the wrong. The figured if they stone walled long enough we would give up. Well after some yelling and screaming they met everyone of our demands. she was amazed and couldn’t figure out why they did the “right thing”. I explained that the dealer had looked at all his options and realized that it was in his best interest to comply because he knew that he was getting closer and closer to getting thrown through a plate glass window. I hate bullies and little tin god that are drunk with power. Mr. Car Dealer could tell. Though I made no overt threats, he didn’t have the guts to call my bluff. We trash his dealership every chance we get.

As far as LD services being poor because of lack of understanding, consider this; There are some interesting threads by Geogia who works with LD students. I can’t believe all the brick walls she her students and their parents run up against are “lack of understanding”. VR counselors are ignorant about just about everything and kept that way but you’d think in a school setting that would not be the case. After all these people are educators. I think they use ignorance as a ruse to justify their inaction, blind eye, and deaf ears.

Fight the good fight and be as nasty as you have to be. Be as nasty and as virulent as LD has been to you. Let them call you crazy. Let them call the police but after they’ve soiled their pants a few time aybe the’ll think twice about screwing with the next client. Tell them what you need want and expect and when you expect it and let them know it would be in their best interest to do it. If you go through channells you’ll just get screwed. Fair hearings are a farce (who’s paying the administrative law judges salary)

I realize that a lot of you feel I’m full of it but I have given this problem a lot of thought and I think the reason VR sucks is because it’s supposed to. There is really no other explanation only their excuses. Don’t defend them. Don’t make excuses for them them. In the mean time give em hell cause that where they belong!