test scores and qualifying for an IEP

Dear Maggie,

The way we do it in Missouri (and I would think that would be anywhere in the U.S.) is to determine a significant discrepancy between ability (IQ) and achievement (that is 1 1/2 times the standard deviation for the instrument, I would assume that to be 22 points or more off the IQ score so a standard score of 94 or below in reading, writing, or math on achievement testing) and associated with behavioral characteristics (organization, reversals, recall, decoding, etc., etc.) would indicate a specific learning disability. Since she is apparently pretty bright, her gaps when compared to her peers (I’m assuming that is where they are reporting %ile) may not seem significant. As I understand it, though, it is a discrepancy against her own intellect. Do you have the standard scores for the achievement testing? Look for 94’s or less.
It would seem to me that she should qualify judging from those percentile scores, especially in reading.

You may want to consider carefully if 504 might be better than IEP. Things I would look at before pursuing a diagnosis of LD would be the effectiveness of the special ed teacher who would serve her verses the effectiveness of the regular classroom teacher. Recent information I have come across would indicate that it may be beneficial to remain in the regular classroom for reading instruction than to be remediated in resource room.

You are doing the right thing, though. Get as much information as possible and this is a good site to get it from. There are many more knowledgable than I.
Good luck.

There are some wonderful and knowledgeable profs that will answer your questions, but you DO need to post the SS scores as indicated above.

I’m “just a mom” but I also agree that she may be better served in general ed. Be careful, most schools don’t have the tools to remediate your child in Spec. Ed/Resource and they will “pretend” they are doing a wonderful job and your child will be farther behind in 2 years than currently. If you have an IEP you can get 15 min. consult only and they are still “on the hook” to follow up with your child and/or your child’s teacher.

If she doesn’t qualify for an IEP, you can get most everything you need under 504. (My friend just did it).

You may have to consider private remediation, but I would also look into an assistive technology evaluation to aid her WHILE she is receiving remediation NOT IN LIEU OF remediation. My daughter’s scores were alot like yours
low verbal, high performance.

She received LMB and sensory integration OT. I would suggest immediate intervention b/c they sand in the hourglass only flows one way.

The whole time I was reading your e-mail I kept thinking “504 Plan” and then I got to your bottom questions about the 504 plan. As a special ed teacher….a very new special ed teacher, so I’m really still learning….I feel a 504 plan would be a good way to go. One benefit that we may have not considered is that this would allow her to recieve services without the stigma of an LD label. Of course we all wish there wasn’t that stigma, but at the same time, it is there and we must deal with that.

In regards to the 504 plan. If I were you I would take time on your own, and time with your daughter to discuss what she needs in terms of accomodations. Such as Does she need assistive tech? Does she need tests to be read to her? Will she need extra time on test taking—including high stakes standardized tests and things such as the ACT/SAT? I would list what the two of you feel she needs and bring that with you to any IEP/504 meeting that may be held. I think one very important thing is to fight for specific accomodations because if it is in the 504 they MUST allow it for your daughter. This will prevent future problems with teachers who may not be as sensative to your daughter’s needs.

I hope this helps!

My daughter is LD, she knows it. No one treats her different and they expect great things from her. I don’t understand the “stigma” of the label, but maybe we’ve just been lucky. I figure it like this: My kids are adopted. They know it. They are not “hung up” on it. My daughter has an “LD”. She knows it. She’s not “hung up” on it. I think often kids only become as “hung up” as others try to make them feel.

Maggie,

I am a special ed. teacher and my child, also named Anna, has some similar issues. While my child’s problems seem to come primarily from memory and auditory processing deficits, she also has poor reading comprehension. I agree with you that below average scores are of concern with a child with an above average IQ.

My advice to you is to get an outside evaluation from someone really good. Surely some of your colleagues would know a private or university based evaluation center where you can have her thoroughly assessed. Honestly, schools barely skim the surface on assessment. And I agree with Leah or whoever said that you need to get remediation outside the school anyway.

Take a look at the Lindamood-Bell site. It sounds like your daughter would benefit from some of their programs. They do a very good reading evaluation there, but you may want a broader eval.

http://www.lindamoodbell.com/

If you post scores again, only post the standard scores (100 is average just like an IQ score). Standard scores are used to compare with the IQ score to determine if a learning disability is present. And that amount varies state to state. Also, those broad composite scores are okay, but we would need the individual subtest scores within every area to have an idea what her specific problems are.

Maybe you could repost standard scores for all scores falling below maybe the 40th%ile or so. It would be a good idea to post all the reading scores under the teaching reading board. There are some real experts over there.

Janis

My son understands he is LD also. But I think that kids who are gifted and LD, like your daughter, have a big advantage. The thing we struggle with our son is the fact that he often feels like he is stupid. He has average intelligence but with his multiple LDs, he struggles to be at the about the 30% in a class. Now this is a big improvement from a couple years ago, which we continually try to emphasize to him. He is the same age as your daughter and he is not nearly as upbeat about things, despite much intervention.

But the label allows him to understand why he struggles. I don’t see how being thought of as “slow”, which would probably be the alternative to explain his learning rate would be an improvement over being LD.

Beth

I agree, better to be identified as LD than incorrectly (slow, lazy, or whatever).

This is uncharacteristic of me because I am not usually into the routine changing of terminology for whatever is politically correct at the moment. But I am finding myself leaning towards Mel Levine’s view of learning differences rather than disability. I really am not sure when I look at my child I see a disabled person. I see a wonderful child who has some learning differences. She has some strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses are causing her difficulty in certain school subjects, but I can see that she may very well be able to get a job utilizing her strength areas (like fine motor) and she will not be viewed as disabled. Nice handwriting (her strength in school) is not terribly influential as to whether she gets a diploma or not, so we do have to address the weaknesses.

Do y’all know what I learned tonight? There are children with excellent fine motor skills who have poor graphomotor (handwriting) skills. I always assumed a weakness in one meant a weakness in the other, but that’s not true. I also learned that children with graphomotor problems may also have difficulty with keyboarding, but at least the final product is legible. The difficulty comes in the area of rapid motor sequencing.

Janis

Do you know if there is anything that will help? My daughter is a strong tennis player, but has always had difficulty with handwriting. I thought typing would be the solution when she got old enough, but she has difficulty with typing too — both rate and accuracy. We are considering Interactive Metronome.

Geez, honestly, I would love to go to conferences and just learn about these different areas.

My daughter has very poor fine motor skills, and motor planning, yet she types pretty well. I don’t understand all the different ramifications in different areas. BUT I do learn more every time I log on.

My daughter, who is usually super confident, was sitting at the kitchen table 2 nights ago, banging her head with her fist, crying, screaming, ” I hate myself”, “I’m so stupid”, etc., etc. Never had a meltdown like this one before. - At least not since pre-school. She was trying to do an FCAT pre-test to “prepare” her for FCAT Reading in March. This is only preparing her to “freak out” when the test arrives.

My otherwise calm, rational child was a “basket case”. She said, “Mom, how can I be gifted and be so STUPID?”. She has a high threshold for frustration usually (one of her strengths) - in other words it takes ALOT to throw her, but she was THERE. I, of course, was almost in tears (and it takes alot for that to happen). Though I explained that test had nothing to do with how smart a child was, etc., etc. and that NOT everyone is good at EVERYTHING (of course it didn’t feel that way when I was in school). I told her I would love her if she made a 0 or 1 on FCAT, etc., etc.,

BTW, sometimes I think it’s more self confidence than giftedness. She rec’d her card in K-5 to tell her what teacher she was getting and when I told her the teacher’s name she replied, “Oh, Mom, I bet Ms. _________ is going to LOVE ME!” Now she points to that teacher and says, “She’s the only BAD teacher I ever had b/c she never taught me to read or how to learn anything” (OF course in Jami’s eyes, it had nothing to do with her LD - it was the teacher’s fault) ;-). I just keep letting her think that.

Mona, I’m sorry but I don’t think Dr. Levine gave a solution for that problem except more practice. With many of these skills, our kids just need more time and practice. I have no idea if IM really helps fine motor skills or not. I’d be sure to find that our before you spend time and money, though.

Janis

Yea — that amazed me … I had kiddos who could draw to beat the band, but writing was anotehr story, unless they “drew” each letter and boy, was that slow!!

Janis, thanks for the input. The results came back from the guidance counselor doing the woodcock johnson and they are saying that she doesn’t need services and are probably recommending a 504. I will post the scores again with just standard scores in the reading section and also here. How do you ask a prof to interpret. I have contacted an educational consultant and have not heard back yet. Are there any parent advocates that help with LD kids. Part of me feels like the school should be responsible for providing these services but the kids they see are so delayed that Anna looks good to them. IF we go to a 504 our class size next yeaR is going to be at 27-30 and i am not sure i feel comfortable with a teacher providing accomadations when they are overloaded already. Maggie

You’ll get some good input here on the scores, I’m sure. The bottom line is that a child must meet whatever the state qualifications are for services. Some children may be LD in one state and not another! So yes, some children will need remediation even if they do not get the label. My personal opinion is that in most cases, it’s okay to take the 504 and get the remediation outside of school. Few schools do effective remediation anyway.

Janis

Janis said “Few schools do effective remediation anyway”.

Just got a chance to look at The Florida Times-Union. (Jax, Florida) The front page of the paper says “Schools fight fourth-grade reading slump”. “Duval County tries new strategies to lift student comprehension skills”. In this article it goes on to say, “On last year’s FCAT only 3 in 10 Duval County high school students passed the reading portion”

OH MY GOSH! We’re not talking LD, we’re talking general ed!

Since I’m “pen pals” with the Superintendent :-) maybe I should let him know about some good reading programs.

That whole language is catching up with us. Urrr…. He ought to be run out of town. I’ll lead the charge.

That is pretty bad all right! I remember the heyday of whole language. I was very critical of it and I was looked down on by people who really thought they were superior. They threw out the phonetic spelling books and I thought, “What are they thinking???” It’s nice to be proven right in the end. Sad that it was at the expense of SO many kids.

What happened was that California led the way with whole language and the entire nation followed. (Sort of reminds me of a bunch of swine following one another and jumping off the cliff.) Finally California realized thay had BIG problems with that little experiemnt, and they had to reshuffle and go with research based methods. If only states would look at research and not follow the trends. But I doubt they’ll learn. Some teachers simply do not understand phonics themselves and just won’t teach it properly.

Then you look at special ed., and they aren’t using the proven remedial methods. I think public education in general looks pretty bad at this point in time.

Janis

Handwriting is very complex with different reasons for breakdowns. That said, I will say that my son’s ability to sustain writing increased tremendously from doing IM. He could only write a couple sentences before falling apart. Now he can write pages. He is still slower than other kids but he is in the game now.
We taught him to type last summer but with IM it has proved unnecessary (and he doesn’t like to be different so we didn’t push it.)

Beth

We had a major melt down this week too—the day after the FCAT writing exam. It was along the lines of “you wouldn’t check my home work if I wasn’t so stupid” and went from there.

I hate these tests!!!

Beth

I was very lucky my daughter had a 2nd grade teacher who, although she was (and still is) NOT the most popular teacher among her peers, REFUSED to give up her phonics books and always taught phonics in class. Her kids did better than alot of the other students. (BTW, her HS and college age students still come back to see her). I am sure that is why Jami did so well, LMB privately AND phonics at the same time in school. Her books were so old they were falling apart. We (the class) bought her 30 new books for her next group of kids.

Re: Phonics - I don’t remember learning it either, but maybe they taught it and I just don’t remember. But I went into K-5 reading.

I think I’ll write the super a letter and send him some paperwork re: LMB, OG, Wilson, PG, etc. and tell him maybe if he switches maybe he can save the NEXT generation of kids. Of course, he doesn’t care, he still collects that paycheck whether the county kids learn to read or not.

Makes me worry for my public school 8th grader (tho he’s scoring “okay” on FCAT) I often think of home schooling Jami and sending her to school only for 1 or 2 classes.

I thought it was “first do no harm” - or is that just for docs?

Beth, I know you’ve mentioned it b4, but where in Florida are you?

Hillsborough County over near Tampa/Clearwater is going gangbusters with a grass roots adv. group. We may live to see some changes - of course, they may only help our grandchildren, but we can only hope. I traveled over there recently for a couple of conferences.

I’m in Broward County—Ft. Lauderdale area.

Beth

My nephew also has excellent handwriting, which also surprised me, considering his many problems in other areas. He has better handwriting than I do! But I try to help him understand that many of his problems are because he has ADHD. However, I don’t want that to become an excuse for not trying. How do you get that across to a twelve-year old, or for that matter, the adults around him?

I and my daughter both have this problem. It is difficult to explain exactly what we have; we can move very very quickly if we let our hyperness loose, but we normally keep it on a rein. But we tend to react jerkily, and that spells disaster for writing, typing, or dialing phones. Stress makes the jerkiness much worse, and relaxing and letting things flow makes it much better although never completely gone. We also stutter or stammer slightly under stress and/or fatigue, the same reaction with the tongue. We both learned to read very young, before school, and we both could not write a legible sentence before Grade 3. Typing simply didn’t help at all; we both spent many years very painfully picking out one letter at a time very deliberately.

In my case, Mrs. Ross in Grade 3 (Bless you Mrs. Ross!) taught us very very traditional copperplate handwriting. She made us use dip pens and inkwells (yes, eight-year-olds in public school.) She said that if you made a mistake you would know it. This is the Montessori idea, and it works. She taught each letter one at a time and had us practice daily, exercises based on learning new specific letter forms in a well-planned sequence. In my case I moved up to a quite readable but painfully slow cursive and much improved printing by the end of Grade 3. It was still an F by Mrs. Ross’s standards, but it would be an A by most other people’s. But the real benefit was this: although I didn’t have the muscle control to master the moves, I did *have* the moves and the knowledge of how to use them. Over time, my handwriting steadily improved and if I take any time at all it is much admired. I later found it easy to teach myself calligraphy with the skills I already had. After a few years’ flirtation with ballpoints, I returned to fountain pens which require no hand pressure and therefor allow the necessary smooth flow; I found I can literally write five times as much with a decent tool.

In my daughter’s case, her hands were visibly underdeveloped. This was the kid who at age 15 in Grade 10 bought he clothing in the ladies’ department, her shoes in the men’s, and her gloves in the little kiddies’. I taught her correct directionality and smooth formation, and I gave her markers and rolling writers and later fountain pens so she could leep the smooth flow. She started better than I did but still had a battle the first few years of school. She was always behind her age group in handwriting — in high school she complained that her writing looked like a little kid from Grade 6. She never learned the formal cursive capitals and developed her own by sloping and curving the prionted ones. However she persevered and writes quite well when she wants to; still prefers a printing style for daily use that looks like Grade 3 but what the heck, it’s legible. I got her to a calligraphy class at around age 11 and *after* the other work, it was useful for her to develop more control, and she makes nice Christmas labels.

When I started typing back in the dark ages on manual machines, it was a hopeless cause. The force required completely messed up any smooth flow and brough back the jerkiness. Also I just made too many errors with the fingers going where I didn’t want them to. I tyoed only when it was a choice of type the paper or fail the class. Much much later in my forties I started working on computer keyboards. I still use six-finger hunt and peck (sorry to you purists, but the little fingers just have no coordination or strength.) And I do look at the keyboard; it is simply necessary because I just don’t have the coordination for my fingers to ‘remember’ the key positions by feel. Over time I have developed a very good turn of speed which is much admired. It took ten years or so, however. I also still very frequently don’t hit the key I’m aiming at, and all these posts are corrected several times over.

My daughter had computers available at least part-time from age 8 up. She refused to take formal typing classes when offered because being forced to do things a certain way with her hands and being put under speed stress was still impossible for her. She hunt-and pecked excruciatingly slowly all through high school, but the papers usually did get done. I don’t know how much she has sped up in university, but her papers in anthropology all seem to be getting in and she is now working on a weekly community newspaper and being paid as author and assistant editor, so her speed must be fast enough.

Advice if you have someone who just learns hand coordination slowly:
Throw out the yellow pencils. They are terrible writing tools, very fatiguing and otherwise unpleasant. And if you have to work hard to write anyway, erasing just makes the job even worse. Write with a smooth-flowing liquid-ink pen or marker, and if you make a mistake, it is NOT a sin to cross out (no, not even in math — check it out, there is NO eleventh commandment “thou must write all numbers in pencil” — not there!)
Get good handwriting guides that show proper directionality and follow them absolutely. The rule is left-to-right and top-to-bottom on all main strokes. Making letters by your own invention, some this way and some that, means a broken rhythm and even more slowness and fatigue. In printing, learn a smooth semi-cursive style with as few pen lifts as possible. Then cursive is *exactly* the same moves as good printing — the reason most students today are having so much trouble with cursive is that they learn to print every which way so they cannot make a smooth cursove move — and to move from good printing to cursive means just reducing the pen lifts between letters. It takes time and work to change a writing style since it’s a matter of habit, but it is worth the trouble for years of time saved after you work more efficiently.
Write large and loose, especially at first. Tight wrist twisting causes fatigue and is illegible anyway. Paper is cheap, education is worth millions. And use pn and one side only; paper is a lot cheaper than low grades and another year in school.
Keyboarding is no advantage if your problem is in guiding your hands. Lots of people hand kids a computer and then figure their work is done, never handwrite anything. No, you have to teach the keyboarding too, and be patient with a very long learning curve. And in real life you have to write notes and memos and cards and lists, and you don’t always have a computer printer strapped to your back, so giving up on handwriting is a very last resort.

re writing to your superintendent

Copy out the “Teaching Children To Read” NIH/NICHD study, or at least the overview and LD parts. It’s readily available, one place being this LDOnline bulletin board, LD In Depth section. Then highlight the main recommendations, these including: (1) systematic synthetic phonics in every classroom (2) guided oral reading (3) direct instruction of comprehension in a variety of ways.
(4) phonemic awareness testing in preschool and phonemic training to identify possible reading disability and head it off at the pass *before* it causes failure.

Send a copy not only to your superintendent, but to every school board member and all the principals and reading “specialists”. It wouldn’t hurt to send it to the Grade 1 teachers too.

Then the next meeting where someone stands up and repeats the Big Lies about reading (“We don’t know what is effective” “There are many different ways to teach” “Everyone learns differently” “Our program is very successful” “”Research supports our program” “you can’t identify problems before Grade 3”) ask them sweetly if they can and do read for themselves, and what they think about the research which you know they had in their hands.

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If it drops back down to -20 Fahrenheit, can I come visit some of you nice folks in Florida?