Hierarchy for remediating/treating LDs/disorders

Hi Sharon,
A good place to begin is with SI. That’s generally a “root” of many other difficulties and remediating SI generally helps. Try to get a hold of the book “The Out of Sync Child” and possibly even more helpful the more recently published “Out of Sync Child at Play.”

If your son has reading difficulties, and I’m suspecting he may, get the book Phonographix and start working with that.

Best of luck to you! :-)

Get phonographix and help him to learn the sounds in words ASAP.

The book is called reading reflex.

Some kids seem like they have an auditory problem but the real issue is that no one ever taught them the sounds in words. My son would surely have tested as a child with an auditory problem before PG but he never would now.

If you can’t get him to learn the sounds in words with PG you might need further testing by an audiologist.

If you can concentrate on the vision therapy for now and get him to develop phonemic awareness you will have accomplished a great deal.

Yes, I have Reading Reflex. I tested him today and he did well on the tests—he got 100% on the auditory processing part. He reads quite well but he has started complaining about it. Reading makes him sleepy and he rubs his eyes. I still plan on using the Reading Reflex and working on advanced code.

The reasons I think he may have the auditory issues are because he doesn’t seem to be able to follow multi-step directions. If I ask him to repeat a string of words like meat, salt, bread, sugar, milk, flour, he might respond with meat, salt, head, sugar, sour, milk. Or, if I say a sequence like, 7 h 5 b 2 w m, he can repeat them back but sometimes they will be out of order. Maybe that’s not auditory—beats me.

I’ve had a difficult time getting him diagnosed. His IQ is in the 130s so he is high performing. I’ve had extensive testing done twice. Once they said he was ADD but he was very young then and that doesn’t really seem to fit. So, I got him in a study of ADD children at University of North Texas. They did extensive testing and said he wasn’t ADD. When I told the head of the psych. dept. that he has SI she said that SI wasn’t a real diagnosis only part of ADD. Huh? (I thought she said he didn’t have ADD?) I told her that something was wrong and she said I should try not to say that. :-) She told me I needed to read about normal development for 8yo boys!

We have an appointment with an OT on July 22nd but I already know he has SI. I was confused about SI at first because he isn’t really clumsy just unorganized in his body. He rode his bike early and is really good at it so I thought that meant he had good balance. Then I discovered (or someone told me) that he can ONLY ride his bike fast. He can’t ride it going slow and he has almost NO balance. I read the Out-of-Sync Child and that convinced me! I found a site with a sensory diet that I can do myself http://www.henryot.com/news/sensory_diet_applications_review.htm

What I’m hearing from you guys is that the SI may be root cause of everything. How would SI cause vision problems? Could that be the reason he can’t do Pat-a-cake?

I’m sure I have more questions but I can’t think…

Thanks for the information.

Sharon

Your son has sequencing issues. My son had the same problem along with SI.

My son did interactive metronome for these issues (recommended by the SI occupational therapist) it almost completely reversed his sequencing issues.

I know what you mean about not really having a motor problem and doing some things really well but just seeming to be ever so slightly off on other things. That is my boy. He scored in the 98% on gross motor skills but he has difficulty with certain things, like swimming and running while controlling his lacrosse stick.

Vision therapy and interactive metronome are the two things we are doing for that and he has made incredible strides.
I have also bought other books on SI and try to give him an appropriate sensory diet. He needs to have his proprioceptive receptors stimulated. It helps to keep him calm and stress free. I also do another program that involves integrating brain mind and body given to me by my son’s developmental optometrist.

He is a different child since doing all these things. If I had to pick one thing that had the greatest affect I would say it was the interactive metronome. www.interactivemetronome.com

I have a child with auditory processing issues. I would agree with Linda that the lack of remembering a list is more likely to be sequencing than AP itself. I say that because your child scored so well on the PG tests. It took years of therapy for my child to do that—and even then wasn’t perfect.

Vision and other sensory systems are very linked. If your OD is doing therapy that addresses these links, which is more OT in nature, you will get carry over.

I also would recommend IM from the profile you describe.

I also agree that I would just use the book Reading Reflex to teach him to read.

Beth

Make sure that you vision therapist understands and addresses SI issues. My son’s does but I interviewed others that stated they don’t tread on the territory of occupational therapists (from whom they get refferals).

Thanks for that great link!

Here is one other exercise we do.

I hold him around the waist just under his rib cage and lift while squeezing him.

My friend his a SI physcial therapist. She recommended this and my son loves it. He will seek me out for this when he feels tense.

Would sequencing cause problems with following directions? He does well when sequencing events in stories. Sequencing *sounds* better than AP or CAPD, at least to me. :)

I have researched IM and can see that he needs this therapy. My question is: WHEN? Would it be helpful now with the vision therapy and whatever the OT adds for SI or would that be too much? Would it be more effective to wait?

***He needs to have his proprioceptive receptors stimulated. It helps to keep him calm and stress free.***

My son needs this and I need him to have it so I will be stress free. (…know what I mean?)

***I also do another program that involves integrating brain mind and body given to me by my son’s developmental optometrist. ***

What is that program? I’m making a list.

Thank you for your reply.
Sharon

Beth, I have learned so much from reading your posts over the past couple of weeks! One of your posts might be where I got the idea about having my son try to ride his bike slowly to check his balance.

Our OD said my son has integration problems so I think the headstands would be helpful. I found part 3, of course, but haven’t yet found the other parts. It seems they are very much like the Yoga headstands.

*** If your OD is doing therapy that addresses these links, which is more OT in nature, you will get carry over. ***

Several things we are doing are very physical like walking a chalk line heel to toe and squatting down after each step. I also have the book Developing Your Child for Success and we do some exercises from that. So, I think this OD is doing a really good job. I’m glad because he is the second OD we’ve been to and there are only 2 who are within hundreds of miles from me.

Thanks for your reply.

Sharon

The earlier directions are down a fair ways—the post is Beth-Angles by Margo.

I never would have dreamt my son had vestibular issues because he rode a bike at 4. But as I have said, it was always fast. It wasn’t until he’d had some therapy that he suddenly started riding slowly!!!

Your son could have auditory memory issues—which often go along with CAPD—instead of or in addition to sequencing issues. You could take him to an audiologist and have him evaluated. My inclination would be to work on the other issues first and see what happens. I may be wrong but I’d be surprised to see a kid ace all the PG tests and have significant CAPD issues.

We did IM after doing other integrative therapy and then went back to that therapy. IM seems to be easier to do if you’ve had some therapy first but it also seems to enable other therapy to be easier. You might do IM after vision therapy is completed or take a break from vision therapy at some point and do IM. If your child gets “stuck” in vision therapy (not making great progress after a point, I’d certainly try the break version. If there is one thing I have learned in this journey is if something isn’t working, try another approach.

Beth

My son can sequence a story and always could. He had trouble with sequencing numbers especially visually. He had trouble finding numbers in a book, had trouble with days of the week and months of the year but I guess he could compensate sequencing a story because he has good comprehension and could use that to get around the sequencing deficit.

I lent my book out on integrating mind and body through movement to my son’s IM provider.
I will post it when I get it back tomorrow or maybe someone else has it.

Beth is right about IM. My son is finding IM much easier since we did some vision therapy and addressed some of his balancing issues. We did it last year and although we saw a very big benefit it was very difficult for him and we could not get his timing scores as low as we would have liked. That is why we are doing it again.

The age of your child is also a factor. If your child is very young, under 8, you might want to wait until you address some of the SI issues.

I got the book you recommended, Integrating the Brain, Mind & Body Through Motion. What a wonderful book! I started my son on the first exercise and he is so calm afterwards.

He started Karate last night and I was dreading the jumping jacks. He did them beautifully! What a difference after only 3 days!

Sharon

Isn’t it funny how every once in awhile you hit upon the exact right therapy for your child and it makes a huge difference.

I have also seen a change in my son recently and I think it has to do with these exercises but we are also doing other things. He hates doing them but I think somewhere in his little brain he knows he needs them. They exhaust him.

He wrote a beautiful paragraph in cursive yesterday. I showed it to a friend who thought it looked neater than most his age.

The OT said he would probably never be comfortable with cursive. She said this only a few months ago.

Well, I’m feeling pretty bad about now guys! :0)

Jami didn’t ride a bike until she was 8.5 and it was considered “miraculous”. It’s still a safety issue and my heart is in my throat everytime we go for a ride. She will probably NEVER be allowed to ride alone (now 10.5) but that’s okay, b/c she really doesn’t enjoy it anyway.

She can however, do cartwheels, both right and left (I never could).

She’s HAD 2.5 years of SI OT. It has done wonders for motor planning, handwriting, etc.

She’s the one who cannot remember a song or a nursery rhyme to save her life. Can’t do Rock a bye baby, Little Miss Muffett, etc. She tells me I will have to sing to her babies or she’ll get a tape. YET, she follows directions pretty good (not too many at a time) and scores high in following directions on testing and in the classroom.

Can anyone take a stab at this? I keep SAYING I’m going to quit trying to figure it out, but it just puzzles me so.

“She’s the one who cannot remember a song or a nursery rhyme to save her life. Can’t do Rock a bye baby, Little Miss Muffett, etc. She tells me I will have to sing to her babies or she’ll get a tape.”

That is my child, too. That is how I first knew something was wrong with her langauge development when she was 2-3. She does not have the motor issues at all. But even though she is diagnosed APD, I really think it is auditory sequential memory issues…or just poor working memory, to put it another way.

Here’s a great example from today! My husband was taking her to the pool, and Bob told her to find the sun screen. She asked him if he wanted to get a “tun san”. This child is over 7 1/2 and still gets sound sequences mixed up. I asked her to repeat what she said and she said it wrong a second time. I was hoping she’d self-correct without me prompting. She bombed on phonological memory on the CTOPP. The big mystery is, how will this effect her as school gets harder? She actually has okay word attack skills because of having two years of Saxon first grade phonics.

Janis

Janis
I have a good friend whose son was just diagnosed apd. He sounds a lot like your daughter. He has a problem with his memory, problems with word finding and language issues. He also has a problem with reading comprehension.

He is doing fast forward and the listening program simultaeneously. My friend noticed a change for the better after 2 weeks then all of a sudden he got worse. He was forgetting everything even his own phone number. I have noticed the same thing with my son who always seems to get worse right before a major breakthrough.

I will let you know if these two programs have an impact for him. He is physically gifted and just an adorable kid in many ways.

I may do audiblox with him after he finishes fast forward for the memory issues.

I just started audiblox with my two boys again.

Linda F,
I am trying to find this book. Can you specify the author and publisher.
Thanks
Penny

Linda F,

Thanks. I found it on one of your earlier posts, and ordered it.

Integrating Mind Brain and Body Through Movement.

from the Rowley Eye Clinic 425 483-8000

Leah,

The not hearing sounds correctly most likely could be corrected by FFW. Whether it is worth the effort is something only you can decide. My son just didn’t follow conversations—he didn’t obviously substitute sounds like your daughter. I suspect my son was much worse than Jamie.

Lots of older kids do it. We had better results from several months of FFW than three years of speech and language therapy (1 1/2 years which had been private).

Beth

Linda F,

Thanks. I found it on one of your earlier posts, and ordered it.

Integrating Mind Brain and Body Through Movement.

from the Rowley Eye Clinic 425 483-8000

Janis,

So… do we JUST buy lots of tapes for our daughters when they have children?! Otherwise she SEEMS to be getting along fine. Your story about the pool reminds me of Jami’s Head fore (forehead), lion mountain (mountain lion) and We trust in God (In God we trust). She only does this occasionally now (10.5), but I’ve always been told it’s her “dyslexia”. Her 1st LMB tutor told me “dyslexics do this when they are the most relaxed” (like not on guard - she said they constantly have to be “on guard” to keep their brain working the right way (?)

We thought it was “cute” when she was little and the entire family called it a “head fore” for many years (YIKES) NOT being an educator, I missed alot of the early stuff b/c Jami would always say “Well, that’s how YOU sing the song, but MY song goes like this”. So, I spent the 1st 5 years thinking she’s was bratty, bossy, obstinate, etc. (Yikes, again - I sound like SOME teachers)

Beth,

Re: The Fast Forward.

Geez, sometimes I want to do it, but she does well in school, she’s happy with herself, full of confidence, etc. I’m just so afraid she’s going to start thinking what is SO wrong that you keep sending me to different therapies - if you understand what I mean. She doesn’t struggle nearly asmuch anymore (or at least I’m not seeing it). She starts school Aug. 7th, and the 1st few wks. will be tough (she usually has meltdowns the 1st couple of weeks - trying to get in the “swing of things”).

Gosh, it’s HARD being a parent. How do you know when enough is enough? Like her OG tutor told me yesterday, “She’ll always struggle, but I really THINK she’ll be fine” (emphasis added). I told her I don’t want a “THINK”, I want a “KNOW”.

It COULD get very discouraging - then I think, if it’s this hard for me, how hard is it for HER?

Sorry for the whine….

Hi, everybody.

I just wanted to stop in and say that I absolutely LOVED Lindamood Bell V/V training and I think that therapy done correctly would be a major help to any child who has memory and comprehension issues. I can’t do justice in summarizing it, but it gives the child strategies to increase his expressive langauge and also to comprehend and likely remember information heard or read better.

Leah, yep, we’d better order those lullaby tapes!

Linda, yes, I’d be interested to hear how the child does with FFW. At this point, I am thinking that V/V might be the thing Anna needs most, but just who to implement it and when are questions I haven’t answered yet! My child’s profile is a bit different than Beth’s son, and that’s one reason I a-have hesitation about FFW for my child.

Janis

It is hard to know when it is enough but if she is functioning fine, I’d let it go. You know we all have weaknesses. I have found out the names of all my auditory weaknesses because of Nathan—auditory-motor, and word retrieval. But I got through school very well and even earned a Ph.D. I do remember though as a grade schooler even being conscious of my auditory system functioning differently (not that I could have ever put it that way). But I couldn’t repeat what people said if it was novel to me, for example Yugoslavia, without a lot of practice. And I often couldn’t find the right word, even though I had a broad vocabulary. Middle age has made the later much worse!!!

It is the combination of problems that cause our children problems, as I have been told by his therapist many times. If you have remediated a lot of her issues, the remaining ones may be things for which she can compenstate.

Actually, given what I know about Jamie, I’d probably go for IM rather than FFW, if you were to do anything else. IM is a less painful therapy to do and seems to have much broader effects. Might make the bike riding a lot easier—things that important to kids. My son became a great soccer player—that alone was worth it for his self esteem. Of course, Jamie seems to do just fine in the self esteem deprt.—I always enjoy your stories about her.

I was interested in your observation that reversing the order of words was related to dyslexia. My youngest, age 6, does that but I had not thought he was dyslexic at all. He is going into first grade and is reading some. He picks up reading so much more easily than Nathan (figured out that the “k” sound at the end of word was usually spelled “ck”, for example.) He says things like “brush tooth” though. Guess I’d better keep an eye on him.

Beth

[quote=”Beth from FL”] Might make the bike riding a lot easier—things that important to kids.

Beth[/quote]

This is a bit off topic, but my son finally learned to ride a bike (at age 12) after we bought a videotape called “Pedal Magic.” I was quite skeptical, but after doing the exercises on the tape my son was able to ride a bike within 5 minutes. This was a kid who had tried and tried and could never master the balance necessary. Things finally came to a head when a camp biking trip was scheduled and he had to miss it. The day before the trip we tried once again to teach him to ride, but with no luck. He really felt terrible.

For us at least, the tape was a very worthwhile investment. Also, in my area there are some occupational therapists who will come to your house to teach a child how to ride a bike, fact which I wish I’d discovered sooner.

We went out and bought my son a very nice bike as a reward and he is proudly riding it around our neighborhood.

Andrea

[quote=”andrea”]
This is a bit off topic, but my son finally learned to ride a bike (at age 12) after we bought a videotape called “Pedal Magic.” Andrea[/quote]

This sounds like a tape we need for my 10 year old. Other than looking on e-bay, how would I get a copy of it? (ie did you find it in a store or a web site or…)

Thanks,
Barb

Beth, I’ve heard good things about IM too. I just don’t know…

Janis, Jami had VV in second grade along with LIPS and Great Leaps. It was a combo - I often wonder if that is why her comprehension is so good. I know alot of the new houses today can get an upgrade with Bose sound system - I guess that would work for the lullabies.

Re: Bike Riding. Jami CAN now ride a bike, but it’s hard for her to watch for cars and ride and in fact, one day she just shot across the street (forgot to look) so it’s a safety issue for me. There was a car, but fortunately it was stopping at a stop sign. Honestly? I still haven’t recovered - she hasn’t been out bike riding since.

She can ride a scooter and plays a decent game of soccer. She got 2-1/2 years of SI OT. She wasn’t even on the curve when she started and now she’s supposedly in the “high average” range (?)

re: the reversals - I don’t know I just know that’s what my LMB tutor told me about the dyslexia. And Beth, Jami also has to practice novel words - like your “Yugoslavia” example. The other day she was trying to remember all the books in the Bible for Sunday school contest and she kept asking about “Leviticus” Even after I told her several times, she just couldn’t remember. I guess it’s auditory memory that’s a problem - but my question is - why does she follow directions so well as school? Of course, her teachers tell me she listens much more intentlly than alot of the other kids. (?)

My children’s parochial school is offerring IM in a group setting—for kids that aren’t LD. It is much cheaper that way and I am going to get my oldest to do it yet. I was going to sign her up last year and she herself a part in a play that conflicted. have thought of doing it myself—my focus isn’t what it used to be. I’d say I’m ADD but it is parenting induced!!!

Nathan used to have safety issues with bike riding too. I think I told you how he ran straight into a parked car—damaging the car, but fortunately not himself!!!

It may not be auditory memory with her. I have fine auditory memory—it is saying what I hear if it is unusual at all. So it is taking auditory information (which I hear fine) and reproducing it in speech. This is called auditory motor. In S. Florida there are tons of immigrants, often with unusual names. It is a bit embarrassing how I can butcher a name. I have difficulty remembering these names too—but not auditory information in general. It is because I can’t reproduce what I hear. My nonLD daughter has the same thing. If so, it may explain why Jamie does fine with following directions—it isn’t auditory memory at all.

Beth

[quote=”bgb”]
This sounds like a tape we need for my 10 year old. Other than looking on e-bay, how would I get a copy of it? (ie did you find it in a store or a web site or…)
[/quote]

I bought the tape from pedalmagic.com.
Andrea

[quote=”andrea”]I bought the tape from pedalmagic.com.
Andrea[/quote]

Thank you and Duh!

Barb

Beth,

Well, she definitely has motor problems so yes it could be auditory “motor” as you called it (I think :0) ), but the inability to remember songs would, I believe (in my mom-pertise) be auditory memory (?)

It’s funny, she can do better if she’s with a group, like she can sing in choir, with everyone, but ask her to sing the song later by herself at home and she flounders. Who knows? The worst part is that she doesn’t realize she can’t sing on key and I’m trying to figure out a nice way to tell her before someone else does.

Any suggestions?

Leah,

We had the same issue with remembering songs, prayers ect. He does fine now, after much therapy. (can remember every annoying jingle now—so some days I think—this is what I get!!) I think you are right though—that is auditory. She may have both issues—my son did.

Singing off key—well my son didn’t even sing until after IM. He actually can sing on key now. My daughter—I always thought she was terrible but then she got in a chior and low and behold, she did OK. She even sang a solo once, which shocked my pants off!! Didn’t make the more competitive chior as she moved into middle school.

She loves to act and is in an arts camp. Had to choose activities and decided against musical theater because singing “isn’t my strength.”

I guess this is my long about way of saying, I wouldn’t try to tell her. She may surprise you and eventually she’ll figure out on her own, or try out for a choir, and not make it, like my daughter did. It will be much better for you to be there to dry the tears.

Beth

Yes, we definitely have both auditory and visual deficits.

Re: The singing. Thanks. I’m always telling her that she’s much better at soccer than singing. Se can “match pitch” 50% of the time - that’s what her choir director told me. At our church, we don’t “try out” for choir and I don’t think she’ll want to pursue it in school. I’m just afraid one of the kids is going to tell her.

My fear is that one day she’ll be on American Idol and Simon will be slicing her up! :0)