Does anyone know or have any opinions on this subject? My specific question is: Is Dyslexia strictly a “problem with learning to read” or is it more of a problem involving “all aspects of language”, ie: rhyming, word order in a sentence, word retrieval, spelling, consonant blends, etc.?
Re: Dyslexia question?
That is very interesting, Rebecca. Wonderful to hear your great results with FFW and PG!
Incidentally, both Carmen and Phyllis Lindamood (daughter of author of LiPS) were students of Diane McGuinness, and I believe Carmen was trained in LiPS prior to developing PG.
Janis
Re: Dyslexia question?
Leah,
No I am not saying [quote]It sounds like you are saying that kids who have all these characteristics are on the Autism Spectrum which LEADS to dyslexia? Is that what I’m understanding you are saying? [/quote]
What I am saying is all of these things are common to or can be part of Autism and all of these things are understood to be underlying causes of Dyslexia. What I am saying is, [b]You can be Dyslexic and not be Autistic but it is rare that an Autistic child is not Dyslexic.[/b] or Dyslexia is almost always a part of Autism
Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level) they can not comprehen or have very poor comprehension of what they have read. If you can not comprehen what you read then I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.
All of that written most cases of Dyslexia can be remediated with the right type of therapy or therapies. It is easier to remediate a person who is just Dyslexic but harder to work with a person who is both Dyslexic and Autistic. The Autism spectrum brings a bag of behaviors and other issues with it that can slow down remediation. Autism also usually signals that any LD issues present (and there are always LD issues present with Autism) are more severe than in the general LD population.
Hope all of that made sense :?
Rebecca
language is learned through modeling for kids with Autism
But as an SLP, I have seen the whole gamut.the key is that they have to have the cognition in order to intentionally communicate with Echolalia. To make sense of the Alphabetic principle and phonological processing takes a considerable amount of cognition as well.
SLP’s have to train the children with autism to use language to INTENTIONALLY communicate their basic wants and needs. They still have issues even in using a picture exchange system, some can be very verbal but in their own little world, they talk in rote phrases which they have heard, some are like little tape recorders with their precise duplication of videos and songs, but they have no idea that words are used to communicate unless they have the cognition and modelling to use language for communication.
I spent weeks trying to get a 5 year old to pick up one card and give it to me INTENTIONALLY. We even had two SLP’s working one moving his hand toward the card and then moving it to the other SLP to get him to communicate that he wanted us to blow bubbles, or give him a toy. He didn’t have the cognition necessary to intentionally give us the card, he would chew it but he didn’t use the card for communicative intent.
Now he would drop the card willy nilly and if I just happened to have my hand under his when the let go of the card does that mean that he INTENTIONALLY communicated his needs and wants? NO…he just dropped something inattentively out of his hands, like throwing a piece of trash on the floor. Whereas children with higher cognition, will pick up right away that if they pick up the card and intentionally give it to the caregiver they will get a reward. There is a difference in all these kids language usage. Teaching them the negative NOT, is really difficult.
For instance you ask a child to show you a shoe and they show you a shoe, and then you put another object on the table and say “show me the one that is NOT a shoe, they will point out the shoe, because it is the last thing they heard, NOT is meaningless to some kids with autism. We have to constantly think outside of the box when treating any children with autism.
Re: language is learned through modeling for kids with Autis
[quote=”pattim”]But as an SLP, I have seen the whole gamut.the key is that they have to have the cognition in order to intentionally communicate with Echolalia. To make sense of the Alphabetic principle and phonological processing takes a considerable amount of cognition as well.[/quote]
I think that is one reason why Autism is a spectrum disorder. My oldest son at age 4 was mute with little cognition but with medical treatment he has gained language, cognition and is developing at a normal rate executive function. It took me being guided once a quarter or so by an SLP 6 months to teach him the concept of less than. SLP thought he would never grasp the concept and at times I thought so too. I could ask show me more and he had no problem pointing out more but ask show me less and nothing but a blank look. I do not remember teaching not :? There is not a day that goes by that I am not thankful for Depakote and the medical treatment my boys recieved. Now it is on to the concept of multiplication :roll:
The kids I work with in teaching reading have good cognition and some even have good executive function and some have non verbal IQs well into the gifted and highly gifted range but even with that they struggle with learning to read. I am not sure there is even a box when it comes to Autism. I think and I am writing as a mother, an aunt, a home schooler, and a teacher that Autism calls for a fresh look and approach with every child who has the dx. I have yet to meet or work with an Autistic child who fit any autistic stereo type. They are each unique with unique gifts, and delays, and idiosyncrasies :? with their own unique spot on the spectrum defined by them. I have come to like and to relish the challenge of teaching Autistic children.
Re: Dyslexia question?
Gosh, this is FASCINATING. Of course, I’m just a mom. I would love to have the $$$ to go back to school and study all of this.
Rebecca thanks for the clarification. I’ve learned that sometimes what someone is saying is NOT what’s I’M getting (learned that after 26 yrs of marriage ;-)
When I look at my own daughter, she couldn’t read, but as you mentioned in your last post had gifted non-verbal. Also executive function problems “were not even on the curve” according to the OT. SHe told me the fact that she could ride a bike at 8.5 was a “miracle”
All the really ASpectrum beh. she “outgrew” (that’s what I called it). I remember telling the OT “she used to do that” alot on her 1st evaluation. OT also said the gymnastics we did at 4 was the cheapest OT we ever got.
We did the slow, more expensive, SI OT and LMB. (of course that’s what the evaluator told us we needed). I would be very interested to know if your “therapies” would have gained us the same result. I can’t complain, she is doing very well. Of course, we are STILL working on those multisyllabic words. ..
Again, thanks for the clarification. You must do a wonderful job with your kids.
Re: Dyslexia question?
<<Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level) they can not comprehen or have very poor comprehension of what they have read. If you can not comprehen what you read then I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.>>
Hi Rebecca,
I have enjoyed your posts but have to disagree with you that if you can’t comprehend what you read, you are automatically dyslexic. As an FYI, I have NLD/ADHD and goodness knows what else.
Most people with NLD have comprehension problems when reading but are definitely not dyslexic. Of course, there are exceptions.
Also, if I remember correctly, Sally Shaywitz, in her book on Dyslexia, stated that the core problem of most people with Dyslexia is a basic problem with phonological processing. Their comprehension usually is excellent. She went on to say that people who have both difficulties with decoding and comprehension have language learning disabilities.
Perhaps you were talking about people who because of decoding difficulties, can’t comprehend what they read. If that is the case, then in my opinion, what you or the neuropsychologist is saying, makes sense.
The reason why I find your posts fascinating is I possibly have LDs not commonly associated with NLD. The neuropsychologist who diagnosed me with NLD thought I had minor dyslexia but I am wondering if it isn’t CAPD. No matter what it is, in my opinion, when you read the literature on NLD, you get the feeling that nothing else exists when a person is diagnosed with NLD. In all fairness, it seems that to date, that’s true of alot of NLDers but it is like folks like me don’t seem to exist. Lil, who posted on this thread, is in similar situation with her son.
PT
Re: Dyslexia question?
PT,
I would say that APD/CAPD can be an underlying cause of dyslexia so you both could be right. I think there is a huge overlap. A lot of people with auditory processing disorders have trouble reading. But auditory processing disorders are not the only cause of reading difficulties. And, some, although I suspect a minority, of people with auditory processing disorders had no trouble learning to read.
Beth
Re: Dyslexia question?
HI PT,
The sub-group of Autistic kids that I was writing about have something called Hyperlexia. Some of these kids only use language when they read but many of them have absolutely no idea what they have read and use spoken language at no other time. So they are mute or use vocal ticks until they pass a street sign will read the street and go back to being mute or using vocal ticks. With some of these kids you could hold up a card that said, “I want a drink” the child will read a loud the card but never make the jump that they could use that card to get a drink when they are thirsty. They may also never understand that what the words mean that they have read. Kind of like me reading German, or Spainish, or Arabic street signs when I was out of the country in the AirForce or going to college abroad. I could sometimes read aloud the signs but never understood what I was reading. The words I read aloud from those street signs were for all intent and purpose non sense words.
I doubt that Sally Shaywitz has ever seen a child like that so I would not expect to find anything about Hyperlexia in her book. Even in the Autistic population it is thought by some to be rare so I doubt a researcher not working in the field of Autism would know anything about it. Leave it to Autism to redefine just what dyslexia is :roll:
Like with everything Autistic there is a spectrum and comprehension varies with the kids who are Hyperlexic, their age, and any speech therapy they have had. I have been at IEP meetings where these type of kids have had dyslexia written on their IEP due to the fact that they have little or no comprehension of what they have read by an independent outside nueropysch. This was so the school understood that yes they can read but they have no idea what they are reading.
There is a group of SLPs that specialize in Hyperlexic kids in the Chicago area here is their web addy http://www.csld.com/publications.html Take a look under their publications and you will find a few on the subject of Hyperlexia.
Rebecca
Re: Dyslexia question?
[quote=”PT”]<<Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level).. I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.>>
>I have enjoyed your posts but have to disagree with you that if you can’t comprehend what you read, you are automatically dyslexic.
PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree with someone who said a child can “outgrow” AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.
As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.
As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism.
The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm
—des
Re: Dyslexia question?
[quote=”Leah-FL”]
We did the slow, more expensive, SI OT and LMB. (of course that’s what the evaluator told us we needed). I would be very interested to know if your “therapies” would have gained us the same result. I can’t complain, she is doing very well. Of course, we are STILL working on those multisyllabic words. ..
Again, thanks for the clarification. You must do a wonderful job with your kids.[/quote]
Once insurance saw the dx Autism they stopped paying for OT, Speech, ect…… They did pay for medical treatment because it was dxed as Landau-Kleffner. We live in a bad school district for special needs kids. To get them to provide anything means a trip to court. School can afford to be taken to court in my neck of the woods because they carry litigation insurance. So taking an IL school district to court usally does little but great greater levels of stress for the parents while the school does nothing more for the child.
Anybody who has an autistic child under the age of 5 or 6 knows that stress is high. What we decided was to home school for many reason the chief being that my son was bolting from the building and spinning in the middle of a major street. The school was under staffed and the district was on bankruptcy watch so they had no money for picture cards or curriculum or aids at that time to work with an autistic 3 year old.
Therapy meant once a quarter I took my sons to an OT or SLP for an eval and then the OT or SLP trained me on how to work with my sons and helped me buy curriculum and equipment. So in our garage is a balance beam ect….I have tons of photo cards with which I taught language in my basement. I am not an SLP or OT but I did an OK job for my boys because that was the only choice we had.
We were lucky in that our sons had an underlying medical cause for their autism and they responded and tolerated the meds that treat Landau-Kleffner. Any body who wants to know more about the connection between autism and LKS here is a link to a few peer review studies done by our Neurologist, http://www.neurologychannel.com/pediatricneuro/articles.shtml
The only other therapy that we paid out for but again done at home with me was FastForWord.
I often need things spelled out for me too :oops: Congrads on 26 years of marriage! We have only been married 14 years but still sometimes I think I need and interpreter :?
Rebecca
Re: Dyslexia question?
I have the “dyslexic” who has wonderful reading comprehension. After 1 year of LMB she went up 7 pts. in comprehension (I thought that was great). B/c she is gifted, she oftentimes will be unable to decode large words, but still gets the “gist” of the context.
She’ll be reading and when she she says proceed unstead of process, I get all confused. But then when she gets done she can tell me what the paragraph said. Me? I miss a word and I’m out of luck :0)
Folks like me don't seem to exist.
Folks like my son don’t exist either. He has severe non verbal issues with a performance IQ of 89. His visual motor problems were quite severe. Yet, he does well socially and understands absolutely everything.
He has difficulty with writing, math, and had trouble with reading initially until I explicitely taught him to read with phonographix.
I think it is a mistake to try to fit all children/people into the boxes that exist. My son was labeled nld but he just isn’t. It was assumed that he didn’t really understand but was just parroting something he heard. This is just not the case and if they really looked at his social abilities they could have discerned that. It was really devastating to have that label in school because with that label comes some very low expectations. It was confusing to my son because he wondered why they talked to him like he didn’t understand when he did understand but couldn’t always demonstrate his understanding in writing.
Hyperlexia and being 50?
[quote=”des”]
PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree with someone who said a child can “outgrow” AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.
As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.[/QUOTE]
Des, I think that I was posting at the same time you were just what Hyperlexia is. Please read that post. These kids have no comprehension they read what is to them non sense words a loud. So the trash fiction is equally nonsense as is the nonfiction text.
[quote=”des”]
As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism.
The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm
—des[/quote]
Des I am nearly 50 so I am not sure just what point you are making here. Is it that experiential learning can be more than book learning? If so give or take a year I do not think when I turn 50 in a year or so all of the sudden I will know more.
If you are saying you are autistic and that there are good things that go with being autistic and in your 50s you have come to terms with that I say great! You and the folks who wrote that article have an edge that lots of autistic folks do not. That edge is good executive function which allows you the quarks and gifts of autism without those quarks controlling your life and robbing you of the gifts.
Here is a bit from my experiential learning that I got in my teens. I used to visit my uncle who was in his late 50s at the time. They were not nice visits. You see he lived in all most all of his life in a state mental hospital mute, rocking or in a fetal position. He was autistic although he did not have the offical dx being born in the 1920s and with out the executive function in place to live out side in the real world. With out the skills to tell his family if he was being well taken care of or abused.
I agree that one can not out grow or totally remediate autism but I do know through experiential learning and through the reading of peer review journals that some causes of some forms of Autism can be cured with medical treatment. Please take a look at the article page from my sons Neurologist I posted in a prior post in this thread.
I have video of my son at 12 and 24 months that show a child with advanced language skills playing in a normal manner, peek-a-boo, pretend with his telephone, ect…. That same child between 2 and 3 lost all language and at 3.5 was autistic. LKS was the underlying medical cause and it hit my son between 2 and 3 not at birth. So in my experience one can be born normal but with a genetic predisposition toward autism develop normally and then become autistic and then respond to medical treatment that stops the brain antibodies and seizures causing the autism and return to normal (what ever that is.)
A really good laymens book on the gifts that go along with many DSMV IV disorders in Shadow Syndromes by Dr. John Ratey.
I trust that you are not saying that when I am in my 50s in a couple of years I will learn to lose all hope and accept things as they are I say there is just too much momma bear in me along with the brand of what I saw in my uncles life.
Rebecca
Re: Dyslexia question?
And regarding the “outgrowing” of her spectrum problems - it was purely spectrum problems, or SID, not autism.
For example, as a young child (she started OT when she was 7-1/2) she would “pitch a fit” b/c the seam in her socks drove her crazy. Me, being ignorant, would say, “Put ON those socks and when you grow up and get rich, you can buy custom made socks, but until then PUT THEM ON” (I know, I know :oops: )
I would go into her room and turn on the CLOSET light. She would scream like an animal about how it was too bright, etc., etc. I’m talking screaming, hands over her eyes, until I turned off the light (for most people this would NOT be a problem)
Those are the only 2 things I can think of “off the top of my head”. Oh she also, when she had friends over, would sometimes put her hands over her ears and YELL “Stop talking - You’re talking too much/loud, etc.”
She also covered 1 eye when she read (tried) in 1st and 2nd grade.
I can’t tell you the times I punished her and sent her friends home and told her she was NEVER going to have friends b/c she was SO rude.
(Now Give me a break - I knew NOTHING about LDs, SID, etc. )- I thought she was the rudest, most obstinate, obnoxious child in the world.
She was Always in control, in charge and everyone followed HER.
“My way or the highway”. It wasn’t until the end of K-5 that I knew something was really wrong. I spent all of K5 and 1st asking the school who said she was “developmentally delayed”. (?)
She was also my child (4ish) who would say, “Hand me one of those things in the bowl” I would say “What is it?”. “That, red thing in the bowl, with the peel and it has seeds inside”. “What IS it?” “Mom, I want to see if YOU know”. I would say “An apple”. SHe would clap and say “Good job, mom”. (Hello? I honestly didn’t have a clue that meant word retrieval problems.)
I know I have digressed, but I’ll never forget meeting the SI OT and spending 30 minutes with her. Everything started to “make sense”. She handed me “Your Out of Sync Child”. I read it x2. I then realized I had a child who was overstimulated and trying to make sense out of a world that didn’t.
Light still bothers her a little, Noise, a little. Socks and clothes don’t. She is never rude with her friends and has lots of them (Still the BOSS :) )
THAT’s what I meant by “outgrowing” her SID. Whether it was the SI OT, maturity, etc., I have no idea. All I know is she makes good grades, is definitely dyslexic and has a wonderful self esteem. You can try to put the puzzle together - I’ve ALMOST given up trying. :-)She is one AWESOME kiddo. - Labels are a way to services. Nothing more, nothing less - that’s how I view it JMHO.
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
>PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree >with someone who said a child can “outgrow” AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.
Leah clarified this, she means the SI problems, this is true to some extent. I think the SI problems decrease with age and with SI therapy.
>As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.[/QUOTE]
>Des, I think that I was posting at the same time you were just what Hyperlexia is. Please read that post. These kids have no comprehension they read what is to them non sense words a loud. So the trash fiction is equally nonsense as is the nonfiction text.
I know about hyperlexia. But not all hyperlexic kids have 0 comprehension. Sometimes they have some or the nonfiction only type thing. I still don’t think this is dyslexia, it is hyperlexia. I have to agree that most people haven’t seen this. I know of a couple kids. One of the kids I knew had no verbal language. But she read and she could read signs that her mom wrote. There were signs all over the house on what to do in certain situations. There was even a sign in the bathroom detailing how to use the bathroom correctly.
:-)
>Des I am nearly 50 so I am not sure just what point you are making here. Is it that experiential learning can be more than book learning? If so give or take a year I do not think when I turn 50 in a year or so all of the sudden I will know more.
No, just that you can’t outgrow even mild autism. That even at age 50 you will still have some traits and so on.
>If you are saying you are autistic and that there are good things that go with being autistic and in your 50s you have come to terms with that I say great! You and the folks who wrote that article have an edge that lots of autistic folks do not. That edge is good executive function which allows you the quarks and gifts of autism without those quarks controlling your life and robbing you of the gifts.
Well yes, there are severe cases of autism. I was commenting more on the mild versions that we see more on this list. This list isn’t primarily for people with severe autism. I think they would post elsewhere.
I can’t speak really personally about that.
>journals that some causes of some forms of Autism can be cured with medical treatment. Please take a look at the article page from my sons Neurologist I posted in a prior post in this thread.
Yes, LKS, that is treatable. It is prolly about the only form of autism that is pretty treatable. It is also rare. I am familar with this, though not personally.
A>I trust that you are not saying that when I am in my 50s in a couple of years I will learn to lose all hope and accept things as they are I say there is just too much momma bear in me along with the brand of what I saw in my uncles life.
No no not at all. Just that if you have some disability even if it is mild then you will still have traits of it all your life. It isn’t a statement about giving up all hope and all that sort of thing. I never implied that.
Of course, also it should be pointed out that things are a bit different even for severe autism than they were when your uncle was young. He no doubt had no treatment or education or any therapy of any kind. Today there is early intervention, ABA, SI and other treatments.
>Rebecca
—des
Re: Dyslexia question?
[quote=”Beth from FL”]PT,
<<I would say that APD/CAPD can be an underlying cause of dyslexia so you both could be right. I think there is a huge overlap. A lot of people with auditory processing disorders have trouble reading. But auditory processing disorders are not the only cause of reading difficulties. And, some, although I suspect a minority, of people with auditory processing disorders had no trouble learning to read. >>
Gosh Beth, I don’t want 4 labels. In all seriousness, you make good points. Gotta get a job so I can get testing and settle this question once and for all.
PT
Re: Dyslexia question?
Here in Florida, they have begun to “use the system”. The McKay scholarship can be used to get private school paid for by the district. So, the kids can end up in a $22,000/yr school and the sd pays $18,000/yr and the parents pay $4,000/yr. You ought to see those kids “flourish” - with ABA, etc., in a small private setting.
I have a friend who has an austistic child. She doesn’t know it (I have suspected for a long time) that the older son is AS. He could sing and read, “Rock of Ages Cleft for Me” at 4 - doing sign language at 2-1/2. (I would have been happy if my daughter would have been able to read OR sing it!). Though he couldn’t “Go in the bedroom and bring me the brush”. (I’m talking 1 direction). She would be YELLING (she was stressed with the youngest) “The brush, The brush! Right there in front on you! See it? It’s blue - ON the nightstand, etc”. Yet, the kid could read ANYTHING and was a great conversationalist. He was 6 and reading to his younger brother. The youngest only spoke occasionally and copied words off movies. She was so busy with the younger, she missed the older son’s problems completely.
Re: Dyslexia question?
Hi Rebecca,
<<As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.>>
Don’t mean to come across as ganging up on you but I have to agree with Des about Dyslexia. Basically, all the definitions I have seen on Dyslexia say it has to do with a core weakness in phonological processing.
I do realize some researchers like MaryAnn Wolfe feel that it also involves rapid naming deficiencies. But I haven’t seen anything that mentions having poor comprehension. If that were the case, technically, you would be saying that all NLDers have dyslexia and that’s just not the case.
<<As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism. >>
Des, thanks for mentioning this. I have gotten into debates with people and made this very same point. But I was always reluctant to push it too hard because I thought maybe I was being too close minded.
<<The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm>>
I read it real briefly and it is a great article. Have to go back when I have more time. Thanks!
PT
Re: Dyslexia question?
Beth, I think I had outstanding visual memory. That’s why I read so well (this is purely my guess). Tho, I think my auditory and memory in general is starting to go! :wink:
Seriously, I was the one who could see a phone # and remember it, and spelling, etc., could memorize the mult. facts easily, but had a heck of a time with division.
Never had a problem in school. That’s why I was so baffled with Jami - I just could NOT understand how reading could be hard!
Re: Folks like me don't seem to exist.
Hi Linda,
I am so sorry your son had to go through so much garbage. Gosh, I shudder to think what would have happened to him if he didn’t have a great mom like you.
As an FYI, even if the label is warranted and I feel it is in my situation, it is devastating because according to the research by Rourke, we might as well hang it up. As a result, alot of the neuropsychs who write the report, seem to follow along that line.
One situation was funny though. When I took a graduate level course at a local college, to get accomodations, I had to meet with the head of disability services and provide a copy of the report. Reading body language does not come naturally to me but I could tell from reading this person’s, she was going nuts because I was nothing like the person who was described in the report.
Your son’s situation with comprehension is a perfect example of what is all wrong with labels. It is assumed that if you have NLD, you can’t comprehend no matter what. That is not correct. So what happened to your son is even more galling since he was incorrectly diagnosed with NLD to begin with.
And even if comprehension is the issue, you have to look into the reasons why someone can’t comprehend. If it is secondary to another reason like what you mentioned with your son, then technically, it is not correct to say that someone can’t comprehend. Obviously, that is one label I have a problem with big time.
Obviously, you are preaching to the choir, Linda.
PT
Re: Folks like me don't seem to exist.
>As an FYI, even if the label is warranted and I feel it is in my situation, it is devastating because according to the research by Rourke, we might as well hang it up. As a result, alot of the neuropsychs who write the report, >seem to follow along that line.
I hated the stuff by Rourke. I read his book quite a long time ago, I had been dxed nld (oh yes it was lower case, this is before they actually had come up with the term). The thing that really bothered me, is I felt he had zilch liking for these kids. They seemed like just some research animals that were vaguely disagreeable. You read a lot of other stuff and it doesn’t sound like that. And as you say, he sounds like you might as well hang it up.
>isability services and provide a copy of the report. Reading body language does not come naturally to me but I could tell from reading this person’s, she was going nuts because I was nothing like the person who >was described in the report.
Hah! Well I felt Rourke’s cases were such that if I met them on the street I wouldn’t know them. I think NLDonline is a much better place to get info.
There are some parent’s stories and so on and it gives a much nicer feel, and I’m sure I would recognize those kids.
>Your son’s situation with comprehension is a perfect example of what is all wrong with labels. It is assumed that if you have NLD, you can’t comprehend no matter what. That is not correct. So what happened to your son is even more galling since he was incorrectly diagnosed with NLD to begin with.
I think that V/V is great for comprehension. I think many kinds of comprehension problems could be dealt with regardless of dx. There is something to be said for a good dx, but I bad one is terrible.
That would be a VERY long story on my part.
>And even if comprehension is the issue, you have to look into the >reasons why someone can’t comprehend. If it is secondary to another
True, if comprehension problems are due to not really being able to hear/ understand, like CAPD, then V/V wouldn’t work either.
>Pt
—des
info
I can’t believe the amazing amount of info posted in this thread. You are all so unbelievebly knowledgeable…wow!
I registered my girl for school yesterday…2nd grade. She will have sped for 125 mins a day…all in reading/phonics. She was excited to show me where she will have P.T.O. (actually, she meant O.T…she gets everything mixed up!). I wish we were actually closer to Chicago as it sounds like there are some really good speech people there. As it is we are 2 hours from Chicago.
I don’t understand about half of the Abbreviations that have been used here, but I do know one thing…you all really know your stuff and it sure has been nice to have such intelligent and caring people help me with my daughter’s problems. I wish you all were my next door neighbors!
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
Des and others,
I think if you go back and carefully read my posts on Hyperlexia you will see that I wrote that it is on a spectrum which would imply varying degrees.
In the mid 90s I was on the CAN (Cure Autism Now) board in IL. I Mced more than one medical or therapy conference and work with researchers in the field of Autism. Before being called up for the first Gulf War I was a research assistant in the field of Archaeology and Physical Anthropology. I had the misguided idea :oops: that being a reservist was a good way to pay for grad school. Any way I am posting this to say I know how to read a peer review paper and how to read a mass publication.
What you may not know is that some researchers in the field of Autism do not think that LKS variant and Autism are rare. Depending on who you read or talk to the numbers are as high a 30% to 45% of folks with Autism may also have LKS variant.
Some times things are rare only because clinicians do not look for it and that is true in both the fields of Autism and Dyslexia. Sometimes it takes a long as 20 years for new research that has been proven with more than one study to trickle down to the clinician and then to the laymen. As far as the clinician and the laymen are concerned something is still rare or untreatable when in reality neither may be true.
What I see in the field of Dyslexia is the mass publishing of one school of research thought. Vision and cognitive issues are left on the back burner while Phoneme is placed in front and given lots of exposure. That can be a big mistake.
It is not uncommon that a researcher or school of research thought can be blinded by their hypothesis. Dyslexia is a field that is really just in the beginning of being explored (kind of just like Autism :) I would caution the embracing of one school of thoughts definition as to just what either disorder is and what the underlying causes are and what treatments may or may not work.
Respectfully,
Rebecca
The more I know the less I know
Especially when it comes to autism and dyslexia and speech, language and hearing impairments. I understand some parts of each but I don’t think anyone really understands something unless they have experienced and lived it. Not to mention we each have our own pair of rose colored glasses that color the way we view subjects. :oops:
It has been difficult for me to even comprehend the challenges my own daughter and son face with the same genetic progressive hearing loss I have. Even though I have walked a mile or more in their mocassins I still have difficulty in understanding what they each experience. There isn’t anything I can do to “fix” their hearing loss, I can aid them with expensive state of the art hearing aids but they still have their own battles they face with coping with the fluctuation and progression in the hearing loss, tinnitus, embarrassment from wearing hearing aids, attention, communcation and learning.
When I was talking with my hearing impaired oldest son about his little sister’s progressive loss in hearing, I could hear him choke up. :( My son is in a pre-med program and his interests are genetics and pediatrics. I am sure he will be actively researching ways to understand and hopefully halt what is happening to his whole family and future generations. :)
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
>I think if you go back and carefully read my posts on Hyperlexia you will see that I wrote that it is on a spectrum which would imply varying degrees.
Oh yes, I understand this. It’s why it’s called a spectrum disorder. It was quite a shock to the world of autism as I remember. But it does make sense, after all there are degrees of hearing loss, vision impairment and even giftedness.
>What you may not know is that some researchers in the field of Autism do not think that LKS variant and Autism are rare. Depending on who you read or talk to the numbers are as high a 30% to 45% of folks with Autism >may also have LKS variant.
I had not heard that LKS or a variant there of was more common. I do know that autism is not rare.
>What I see in the field of Dyslexia is the mass publishing of one school of research thought. Vision and cognitive issues are left on the back burner while Phoneme is placed in front and given lots of exposure. That can be a big mistake.
I have no problem including visual issues or cognition for that matter. I think it is one of the geniuses of LMB, that they use such highly interactive questioning to engage the child.
The problem I have in classifying severe comprehension problems as dyslexia is that the treatment of it is so extremely different. It can be just as severe a problem, no doubt. I knew someone who had so poor comprehension that reading more than short fragments was extremely difficult.
You could quite conceivably get a dyslexic kid who read at a higher reading level than a hyperlexic kid.
>It is not uncommon that a researcher or school of research thought can be blinded by their hypothesis. Dyslexia is a field that is really just in the beginning of being explored (kind of just like Autism :) I would caution the embracing of one school of thoughts definition as to just what either disorder is and what the underlying causes are and what treatments may or may not work.
Well I would concede that it is possible that the underlying problems
*could* be similar. I doubt it, but it is possible. For example, the underlying processes of dyslexia could be issues like auditory processing, visual processing, and even some sensory integration. It seems unlikely that the processing problems of a hyperlexic child who can sound out and say any word but who’s comprehension is poor is the same.
>Respectfully,
Rebecca
—des
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
I guess I had not made my self clear in some of my posting. I am not totally talking about Hyperlexia here. Only in my first paragraph. I have seen posts on this thread quoting that thus and so define Dyslexia to be………… The researcher being quoted belongs to a certain school of thought which can blind them to other things that can cause Dyslexia.
Some of the very best researchers in any field will not be heard of by the layman because they do not write books intended to be read by the masses. When a parent or teacher or anyone reads a book written for the masses they need to take it with a grain of salt because it is not unbiased. It is a small slice of the work being done. The reader needs to look and see if the authors studies have been duplicated by any one else in the field with the same result. The reader needs to ask questions like is this researcher so into Phoneme skills that they do not even look for vision or……. problems.
Back to Hyperlexia and Autism I do not think anyone would disagree that language plays and important role in the ability to read. Any one who has read the DSMV IV knows that in order to get an autism dx one needs a language delay of at least 2 years. Hyperlexia is a problem for folks with Autism so it is safe to say that there is a language delay of at least 2 years.
I know that there is a prevailing school of thought that Dyslexia (which is a vague term that means something like trouble reading (which could include comprehension) or learning to read) is cause by Phoneme problems only. Well I would guess that if there is a language delay of 2+ years there is a problem somewhere with Phonemes.
Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they have a problem breaking language down into its parts. I can read some German, French, Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic (my father has a Ph.D in ancient Semitic languages so I grew up around these languages) but I can not speak any of those languages. I can not break down German, French, Hebrew, Greek or Arabic words down by their phonemes either. But I can sight read enough to catch a train while in Germany or France. I can also in a poor manner pronounce the words that I can sight read. I have heard speakers mostly SLPs and a couple of Neurologists at Hyperlexia conferences describe Hyperlexia to be similar to my reading the above languages.
The experts in the field of Hyperlexia that I have heard speak seem to think that in many individuals with Hyperlexia there is also a type of Dyslexia present. That the child or person has a phenomenal visual memory and is using that to read with and is thus not really decoding in a phonetic manner. Now all of that written there is less known about Hyperlexia than there is about either Autism or Dyslexia so who knows. But it stands to reason that if there is a language delay there is probably a problem some where with breaking down language by phoneme.
It might be interesting the next time your friend holds a card up for her Hyperlexic child to read to change the card from whole word to one letter at a time or better yet to write the words in a common phonetic spelling that might mean some of the words are misspelled, instead of drink write dreenk, instead of cookie write coocky, instead of cake write kaek, ect….. See if the child can still read and understand the card. If not I might question was real phonetic reading taking place or was the child sight reading?
Rourke/V&V/Comprehension/labels
Hi Des,
<<I hated the stuff by Rourke. I read his book quite a long time ago, I had been dxed nld (oh yes it was lower case, this is before they actually had come up with the term). The thing that really bothered me, is I felt he had zilch liking for these kids. They seemed like just some research animals that were vaguely disagreeable. You read a lot of other stuff and it doesn’t sound like that. And as you say, he sounds like you might as well hang it up. >>
You are right on target as that is exactly how I felt. Also, regarding the sense of humor that he decided NLDers don’t have - Think about it, if you were one of those people in the study and had to deal with Rourke, would you have a sense of humor? I rest my case:))
<<I think that V/V is great for comprehension. I think many kinds of comprehension problems could be dealt with regardless of dx. There is something to be said for a good dx, but I bad one is terrible.
That would be a VERY long story on my part.>>
Interesting you mention V&V because I am wondering if that would help with my own situation. But I need an evaluation of possible CAPD problems first. It obviously must be a great program since all the professionals on this board who I respect, including you, rave about it.
To add to what you said about having a good diagnosis, it is also imperative that the clinician describe the problems related to that label as it applies to the person’s real life. Instead, we get garbage like, so and so received a score that is three standard deviations below the mean.
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
Hi Rebecca,
I agree with you that there have been suggestions in research that vision issues are also a contributing factor to Dyslexia. But while I am not a professional like you, because for awhile, I was going nuts wondering whether I had Dyslexia or not, I have searched ad nauseum and have not come across any articles that suggested that comprehension was the only issue. If you have particular references to studies that suggest that, I would be interested in looking at them. Of course, don’t expect me to give you a summary of what I read<g>.
Sorry if I seem stubborn on this point. I am just concerned about people getting erroneous labels and thus, not getting the remediations that they need.
I do agree though that research can be slow to catch up with what is really happening. Perfect example is the situation with weight gain from Prozac and related SSRIs. Thank goodness, that is changing.
And of course, I have mentioned Rourke’s research on NLD that doesn’t seem to be totally accurate. I don’t have the credentials to prove anything but it is a perfect example of what you’re saying in my opinion.
On an unrelated note, many kudos to you for your service in the military and war.
PT
Re: The more I know the less I know
Hi Patti,
<<Especially when it comes to autism and dyslexia and speech, language and hearing impairments. I understand some parts of each but I don’t think anyone really understands something unless they have experienced and lived it. Not to mention we each have our own pair of rose colored glasses that color the way we view subjects. >>
I understand what you’re saying but in my opinion, you’re comparing apples to oranges. I definitely realize that unless you have experienced a situation, you can’t truly understand what it is like.
But the issue Rebecca mentioned with comprehension and dyslexia is an entirely different issue. As I mentioned in my reply to her, I have searched ad nauseum on Dyslexia because I wondered if I had it. I have seen suggestions about the vision issues she mentioned but I had not seen anything suggested that comprehension was the sole factor. It just doesn’t make sense because if that were the case, then alot people with NLD would have Dyslexia and that’s just not the situation.
In my opinion, that is not seeing something through rose colored glasses but is simply dealing with facts as they currently exixt. You also have to understand that since I seem to be the exception to every diagnostic rule, I am the last person who would want to keep my rose colored glasses.
Anyway, you or Rebecca want to provide me information that suggests that comprehension is the only factor in Dyslexia, I am willing to reconsider my position. As I said to her, just don’t expect me to give you a summary:))
I am also concerned about people getting labeled erroneously because they won’t receive the right remediations. That I do know about personally as my reading difficulties were incorrectly labeled.
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
<<Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they have a problem breaking language down into its parts. I can read some German, French, Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic (my father has a Ph.D in ancient Semitic languages so I grew up around these languages) but I can not speak any of those languages. I can not break down German, French, Hebrew, Greek or Arabic words down by their phonemes either. But I can sight read enough to catch a train while in Germany or France. I can also in a poor manner pronounce the words that I can sight read. I have heard speakers mostly SLPs and a couple of Neurologists at Hyperlexia conferences describe Hyperlexia to be similar to my reading the above languages.>>
Rebecca,
Now I understand where you’re coming from. I am not 100% sure on this but from what I understand about people with NLD learning to read who don’t have language delays, they tend to learn to read in the same way. But they have no problems pronouncing words and their reading is not impacted except perhaps in the comprehension area.
My own situation where I am the exception to every rule - I have NLD/ADHD. The reason why I always wondered if Dyslexia was a possibility was I have had difficulties in pronoucing certain words and mild decoding difficulties. I have also had unexplained reading difficulties that I actually think can be attributed to many reasons. I don’t have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.
Interestingly, I have started reading “Reading Reflex” and already feel I have learned some tricks for decoding unfamiliar words. That leads me to believe that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn’t taught correctly.
Here is another reason why I feel my problems and the ones that people with Hyperlexia have with phonemic awareness are not true Dyslexic Issues. It is my gut feeling that if I could find a remediation be it V&V or something else and providing I could improve visual tracking problems through VT, that they phonemic awareness issues even if I didn’t do a darned thing in remediating them would not be that relevant. Someone who has a hard core case of Dyslexia would not be saying that.
In summary, I agree with you Rebecca that because of own experiences, it is definitely possible for someone with Hyperlexia to have phonemic awareness problems. But until proven otherwise, I don’t think that necessarily equates to dyslexia. Of course, what I am stating are opinions and nothing more.
Well, obviously, you know what questions I will be posing to my NLD friends:))
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
>I guess I had not made my self clear in some of my posting. I am not totally talking about Hyperlexia here. .. The researcher being quoted belongs to a certain school of thought which can blind them to other things >that can cause Dyslexia.
Well I’m quite sure your right. Researchers only look for what they are looking for. :-)
>Back to Hyperlexia and Autism I do not think anyone would disagree that language plays and important role in the ability to read. Any one who has read the DSMV IV knows that in order to get an autism dx one needs a language delay of at least 2 years. Hyperlexia is a problem for folks with Autism so it is safe to say that there is a language delay of at least 2 >years.
That isn’t true with Aspergers and PDD NOS for example. Yes, in many cases that is true, but I think that hyperlexia is prolly a savant skill wherein all odds are off. Of course the comprehension isn’t there, so in that case the odds are back on. It only applies to word recognition and decoding.
>Well I would guess that if there is a language delay of 2+ years there is a problem somewhere with Phonemes.
One would think. But the stuff I have read on hyperlexia doesn’t say that. In fact that some kids can decode anything. There is no explantion as to why that is.
>Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they
Well, of course, if you say except for “a few people” at the high end, then you are pretty much discounting most autistic people, as most of us are at the high end. I know that the lower functioning end is more dramatic and certainly more challenging— as well as known about for a longer time, but it is quite logical to believe that for every low functioning kid you see, there might be 5-10 higher functioning.
As you say it isn’t uncommon.
>t might be interesting the next time your friend holds a card up for her Hyperlexic child to read to change the card from whole word to one letter at a time or better yet to write the words in a common phonetic spelling that might mean some of the words are misspelled, instead of drink write dreenk, instead of cookie write coocky, instead of cake write kaek, ect….. See if the child can still read and understand the card. If not I might question was real phonetic reading taking place or was the child sight reading?[/quote]
Too bad this kid is in another state. But the people on the sites that I saw said that many kids could definitely decode. And they couldn’t explain it.
Still it is an interesting research question or problem.
I wonder what NT people do when they see such a word in context. In context I would ignore it as a typo. BTW, a friend of mine thinks I’m hyperlexic. I taught myself to read at age 3 or so, but I don’t have all the characteristics like poor verbal language aquisition. Some of the things fit though. Perhaps my interest in the subject anyway.
—des
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
>hink can be attributed to many reasons. I don’t have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.
When these folks write it is usually a generalization of various cases. Obviously every NLDer will be different. If enough things don’t fit then you can be pretty sure it isn’t it, but people don’t always neatly fit in all categories. That’s why they have the NOS (not otherwise specified) in the DSM. I don’t think NLD is in there? Haven’t seen it in years.
>Ielieve that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn’t taught correctly.
Welll I don’t know how old you are, but when I was in school they used whole words (Dick and Jane) and just the merest touch of phonics. I think 90-95% of “dyslexics” are kids that just weren’t taught correctly, ok personal bias. But there are lots of fads in education. My sister can’t spell if her life depended on it, she was taught like I was. I doubt you’d say she was dyslexic or whatever term you’d use to describe someone who can’t spell.
Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.
>Issues. It is my gut feeling that if I could find a remediation be it V&V or >something else and providing I could improve visual tracking problems
On the LMB webpage they say that Seeing Stars and V/V are for individuals identified as hyperlexic, NLD, (among other things).
>Well, obviously, you know what questions I will be posing to my NLD friends:))
I did ask some high functioning autistic people. One said he was dyslexic (which is possible on how this conversation started), a couple stated that they used NO whole word reading, that they totally started reading by decoding. The guy that wrote the article “Don’t Mourn for us” says he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)
>PT
—des
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
<<One would think. But the stuff I have read on hyperlexia doesn’t say that. In fact that some kids can decode anything. There is no explantion as to why that is.>>
Hi Des,
Here is an exert from a site on hyperlexia that picks up on your point:
“In all the hyperlexic children, there seems to be a visual recognition of “wordness” that may be unrelated to the recognition of the verbal signal. One child would not even attempt to read nonsense syllables since he did not recognize them as words. Another thought it was the funniest thing when he saw “train” was spelled as “trane”. Elliot and Needleman (1976) suggest the existence of an innate written language capacity: the ability to recognize a written word as a linguistic symbol as separate from the auditory spoken word.
It is questioned whether all hyperlexic children are ‘automatic decoders’. Some hyperlexic children can read anything placed before them, even though they may never have heard or seen those words before, nor do they understand them. They rarely mispronounce even the most difficult words. We also have seen a continuum of abilities, especially before the age of 5. Some children begin as sight readers of familiar words, some are logo readers. Most progress to the point of being able to decode anything. It would be enlightening to understand the process by which a child attains his decoding ability. ”
I think what I was trying to say earlier was that even though people with Hyperlexia don’t seem to decode in the traditional way, they seem to be able to do it as you say.
Here is the link for the whole article.
http://www.hyperlexia.org/hyperlexia.html
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
PT,
I do not think that I posted that cognitive issues could be the only problem. However it is not too big a stretch especially in light of the fact that the term Dyslexia is so fuzzy that one could have a severe short term memory problem that would cause Dyslexia. If someone does not the have the capability of making the sound symbol connection because short term memory is so impaired then I would say it is not too big of a jump to say they are Dyslexic, having trouble reading or learning to read.
The problem is that it is seldom that an individual has just one contributing cause for their dyslexia. My older son had vision, auditory, language, and cognitive issues that all contributed to his dx of Dyslexia besides the fact that he had a nonverbal IQ in the highly gifted range. Each area needed to be remediated in order for him to learn to read. Most of the Neuropsych reports that I have read, and I have read a quite few from several children as a parent advocate or a support group leader, all state more than just Phoneme problems as the contributing factors in the dx of Dyslexia being given.
In the Chicago land area a good portion of the Neuropsychologist and Neurologists when speaking on the subject will say there are 3 areas that are interrelated that cause Dyslexia, language/Auditory issues, Vision issues (visual memory, tracking, ect, ect…..) and Cognitive issues (short term memory, sequencing, long term memory retrieval problems, ect….) The last Neuropsch that I heard speak on the subject said that most folks with a dx of Dyslexia will have issues in at least 2 areas and the severe cases will have issues in all the areas.
I think common sense would lead one to think that any of the above areas would cause problems in ones ability to read or learn to read. If you can not retrieve from long term memory the information that the symbol F represents the sound ef then there is a problem that is separate from the ability to hear and segment the ef sound out of the word fish.
If you are just surfing the web looking for studies I think you will not find what you are looking for. When my son was first dxed with Autism I searched medical libraries. I went to colleges and found who was the head of the Speech and Language department or Psych department or OT, or Neurology department…… And I talk with those folks and their staff and their grad students. I asked them who to read and what to read. I read many of the textbooks being used. I ask what the names of the peer review journal were and then tried searching through the journals to find the info I needed. I found out who had medical or therapy conferences on tape and either bought or borrowed those tapes and listened. NIU was great about letting me check out text books to study. They even let me keep the Prep R which was TEACHs assessing and teaching children with Autism set of books for a year while I used them with my boys. What I tried to do was get as complete of a picture as I could of what was going on with Autism to a lesser degree I have doen this with dyslexia.
Bear in mind that a study looks only at a small piece of the puzzle of any disorder. In college the Neuropsychologist is taught how to test every area and then pull all the pieces together to get a complete picture. Mass produced books from folks like Shaywitz (sp?) will only provided the small piece of the picture that that researcher is interested and working in. It will not give a complete picture and it may not even allude to the work of others in other areas of the field. It is a place to start tho when doing ones personal research as long as it is kept in mind that it may not be the whole picture of just what the disorder is.
Rebecca
NIU
Rebecca, are you near NIU? My daughter went there for 1 1/2 years for language therapy…the staff was incredibly helpful!!! I am very familiar with the campus.
Re: Dyslexia question?
Let me start with - Okay, I’m just a mom again.
I have a dyslexic daughter. Adopted. “Family hx of dyslexia”. Of course, my evaluator doesn’t USE that term so she has: APD, VPD, SID, ADD, fine and gross motor skills problems and motor planning problems.
She has a gifted IQ. Decodes almost on grade level (after 3 years of LIPS, V/V and Great Leaps and 2-1/2 yrs. of SI OT as well as ADD meds)
Comprehension is in the 91st percentile nationally. Blows mymind.
I asked her new OG tutor (recommended by IDA, certified, been doing it for years and teaches up in SC/NC area part of the SUmmer), IS my daughter dyslexic? “Absolutely!” She also told me that “I’ve never see a child who wants to read so badly”.
Anyway, ya’ll got a little “over my head” with all the research, etc. I just wasn’t clear is anyone was saying dyslexics have poor comprehension.
Anyway, just wanted to throw another “wrench in the works”.
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
<PT - I don’t have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.>
<Des - When these folks write it is usually a generalization of various cases. Obviously every NLDer will be different. If enough things don’t fit then you can be pretty sure it isn’t it, but people don’t always neatly fit in all categories. That’s why they have the NOS (not otherwise specified) in the DSM. I don’t think NLD is in there? Haven’t seen it in years.>>
So true Des. Actually, I think if I went to 10 different neuropsychologists, there would be a tie vote on NLD. No, it isn’t in the DSM but Rourke and company are working on that.
<PT - Ielieve that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn’t taught correctly.>
<Des - Welll I don’t know how old you are, but when I was in school they used whole words (Dick and Jane) and just the merest touch of phonics. I think 90-95% of “dyslexics” are kids that just weren’t taught correctly, ok personal bias. But there are lots of fads in education. My sister can’t spell if her life depended on it, she was taught like I was. I doubt you’d say she was dyslexic or whatever term you’d use to describe someone who can’t spell.
Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.>>
I am almost 48 but when I went to school, it was the same deal. Funny, I used to rail when people claimed dyslexia was the result of dysteachia but I have changed my thinking on that. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it is a legitimate label because it is. However, I now realize there are other issues to look at.
<<I did ask some high functioning autistic people. One said he was dyslexic (which is possible on how this conversation started), a couple stated that they used NO whole word reading, that they totally started reading by decoding. The guy that wrote the article “Don’t Mourn for us” says he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)>>
Des, you’re again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn’t the case.
PT
Re: Dyslexia question?
<<Anyway, ya’ll got a little “over my head” with all the research, etc. I just wasn’t clear is anyone was saying dyslexics have poor comprehension. >>
Hi Leah,
In spite of my attempts at research, I am just an amateur like you. And in reading your previous posts, you seem quite knowledgeable.
To answer your question, who knows? I have already mentioned what Shaywitz said. On a related note, when I took an assistive technology course and did a project on the effectiveness of screenreaders for folks with dyslexia, their comprehension was excellent even though they read very slowly. Of course, that proves nothing but just wanted to throw it out there.
This is my amateur opinion so take it for what it is worth - It is important to define what you mean when you say comprehension. Is the person having trouble understanding a story because he/she is spending all her/his time on decoding? Is it because he can’t remember a darned thing she read? Or is the comprehension due to what we typically think of which is the person truly doesn’t understand the story?
Obviously, the 1st scenario could definitely be an issue with people with dyslexia. Regarding the 2nd scenario, I would also say yes. It seems the 3rd scenario is not an issue even folks with Dyslexia have to read an article extremely slowly to understand what they have just read. But even though Sally Shaywitz has labeled folks who have problems decoding and comprehending (using the classical definition) as having language learning disabilities, frankly, I can where other professionals might continue to call that dyslexia.
In my responses to Rebecca, I was objecting to saying that folks with Dyslexia only have problems with comprehension (using the classical definition). But I realize I might have misunderstood some of her points.
Now that I have confused you even more:)), I had better quit.
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
Hi Rebecca,
Actually, the neuropsychologist who did my evaluation did not look at the total picture in spite of having top credentials. So unfortunately, my experience has been different.
Thanks for the suggestion on journals but I wouldn’t last two minutes in a medical library because of the various difficulties as the result of my LDs. One new trick I discovered is that I can access journals through my library’s online databases. Too early to tell if that is worthwhile or not.
One tactic I can use is to do more searching of the pub med articles as my sister-in-law told me she has access to the full texts. Of course, I don’t want to abuse that privilege:))
I think from one of your firsts posts, I assumed you were stating that comprehension was the only issue in Dyslexia. But if I read that wrong, my apologies.
It seems in reading more of your posts, we don’t disagree that much but are simply looking at the issues slightly differently. For example, I definitely have difficulties with visual tracking, ect, but I don’t see that as my part of my reading difficulties but as a co-existing condition just like depression isn’t part of my LD but definitely is an issue when it is not taken care of of.
Yeah, I agree it is possible if you have memory difficulties, you are not going to remember the decoding rules. In fact, because of my own difficulties in not being able to remember what I read, that is why I looked in that area.
I also agree that research doesn’t always cover everything. For example, I think that executive function issues haven’t been studied enough as a definite issue in reading. I know Martha Denkla has done some work but I haven’t seen anybody else who has.
Finally Rebecca, I just realized another reason why I might have seemed extra sensitive on this issue and I can’t believe I didn’t think of it until now.
When I was evaluated through the state voc rehab offices, the dyslexia label was applied to my reading difficulties very loosely even though the standard tests for it were never used such as the CTOOP (sp?) testing. As a result, I walked away from there having no idea what my problems were but having a label that told me nothing. Then when I read the description of what Dyslexia was about, I was obviously alot more confused since it seemed I fit very few of the criteria.
I think my worry Rebecca was that if we start thinking that all difficulties in reading can be attributed to Dyslexia, it is going to become a very unhelpful diagnosis. I realize that reasonable people can disagree but my concern is that this label will be given to people without an explanation by the evaluator as to what you mean by it.
Just my opinion.
PT
Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?
<So true Des. Actually, I think if I went to 10 different neuropsychologists, there would be a tie vote on NLD. No, it isn’t in the DSM but Rourke and company are working on that.>
YIKES! YOu may have me beat on the 10 neuropsychologists there. :-)
I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)
<Des - Welll I don’t know how old you are, but when I was in school they
Hah old enough, actually in my 50s.
<Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.>>
>I am almost 48 but when I went to school, it was the same deal. Funny, I used to rail when people claimed dyslexia was the result of dysteachia but I have changed my thinking on that. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it is a legitimate label because it is. However, I now realize there are other >issues to look at.
Well I do too, and maybe 95% percent is a bit high, but I think that there are many kids that are just poorly taught. Or inappropriately taught. Or now like my experience trying to get a job in Albuquerque, if the special ed is 19 in a class, what’s the regular ed. I’m sure many kids just can’t learn with 38 kids in a class or whatever they have. I read a book— can’t recall name— that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn’t go that far, but she has a point.
<s he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)>>
>Des, you’re again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone >assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn’t the case.
Well true enough. I don’t think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners’ kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do.
—des
PT[/quote]
Re: Dyslexia question?
PT,
I know it is hard to get a good eval and to find a good Neuropsychologist. I have found support groups to be the best place to find info on the good professionals. I have also learned through experience that the best is usually in private practice. A few good folks work in the public sector but not many and it is luck of the draw to find them.
I am now looking at this as an educator tutor. If a tracking issues keeps a child or client from achieving fluency then it needs to be remediated. If every thing else that caused a reading problem is remediated but the tracking is the person reading like some one with out Dyslexia? I doubt it. They may have great decoding skills but have not built fluency due to the tracking. In short they are dysfluent and as a result can have poor comprehension problems.
I read this about tracking from a Doctor on a list that I am a part of and it made perfect sense to me because I have folks in my family who do this. I thought I would share this much with you because it might help you. {OUOTE}If you are a visual dyslexic (dyseidesia) then you likely are a slow dysfluent reader, have a tendency to struggle with reading comprehension, tend to read out loud to yourself (instead of going from vision to language comprehension) you take the visual symbols and convert them into an auditory stimulus thus improving “reading” comprehension tasks by trying to convert them into a “listening” task, and perhaps
spell well phonetically (the way words sound) rather than accurately
(the way words look). There may still be a tendency to read words sound by sound and a likelihood of needing numerous exposures to a word before it becomes part of your sight word vocabulary.{/QUOTE}
Here are a couple of sites that he recommends www.covd.org or www.optometrists.org/stephey and follow the links around. This might help in your search to learn more about dyseidetic dyslexia.
It is my thought that by narrowing down dyslexia to only dysphonesia (auditory based dyslexia) type dyslexia and ignoring dyseidesia (vision based dyslexia) will leave a lot of folks still struggling with reading. Kind of like only treating the language delay in Autism because that is usually the biggest delay and then saying the Autistic person is remediated. Any one who knows anything about autism knows that there is more to it than just language delays and that all SI and any other issues should also be addressed. It is treatment (remediation) of all the problems that brings an autistic child to the place where they can live an independent productive life. With out total remediation a child may be looking at adult life in a group home or worse. It is the same with dyslexia it is treatment (remediation) of all the underlying causes that will bring a dyslexic person independence in their reading.
Hope this made sense.
Rebecca
Auditory and visual issues.
I did phonographix with my son for the auditory issues. He is stronger in the auditory realm but I also wouldn’t say it was easy.
We have addressed his sequencing issues through IM and vision therapy, and his visual issues through vision therapy.
I do agree whole heartedly that you must remediate all areas. These children do have multiple problems.
My son’s optometrist told me that 80% of those with speech issues will have visual tracking issues. If they are having trouble with the muscles around their mouth they will also often have trouble controlling their eye movements.
It is way more complex than that but I do think that for a child to seem LD they have to have more than one area of disabilty. Most people have problems with something but they can compensate well enough to do well in school.
meaning of dyslexia
The word ‘dyslexia’ literally means ‘dys’ a problem or interference and ‘lexia’ language.
While many people use the word to indicate a reading disability, dyslexic children many have any one of a number of problems with language ie spoken or written language. Some dyslexic children might read well, others not at all well.
the terms used when speaking of learning differences are often bandied about and it’s always good when speaking to teachers or with parents to devote a little time to making sure everyone’s on the same page with the meanings of the words that are being bandied about.
Re: Dyslexia question?
As a former elementary teacher who has 15 years experience teaching reading in elementary school to learning disabled students, I can assure you that dyslexia exists independently of dysteachia.
When dysteachia is the reason for the lag, then the student catches up pretty readily after spending a couple of years in resource, providing solid teaching techniques are used.
When dyslexia is present, the student usually has several processing difficulties that interfere on a long term basis with reading fluency. So, you work on the phonological aspect and get good improvement, but it never gets to be as good as a nondyslexic reader. Multisyllabic words continue to be challenging, even after specific teaching and practice. But, this gets much, much better. Speed usually remains a lifelong issue, even with much training. Dyslexics tend, as a group, to have sloppier reading, than nondyslexics.
All aspects of a dyslexic readers reading skills improve with very explicit and direct teaching, but this process is not rapid, for every piece must be specifically taught and practiced, so remediation takes years.
I have lost track:))
Hi Des,
<<YOu may have me beat on the 10 neuropsychologists there. :-)
I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)>>
No offense to neuropsychologists as I would say this no matter who did the testing but I couldn’t imagine going through it ten times. Once was bad enough.
LOL at your NOS NLD statement. I have got the ADHD NOS one so it would be perfect if I could get the NLD one. Ok, I am really getting silly.
<<I read a book— can’t recall name— that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn’t go that far, but she has a point.>>
The Reading Reflex Book, maybe?
>Des, you’re again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone >assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn’t the case.
<<Well true enough. I don’t think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners’ kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do. >>
I definitely do also.
PT
PT[/quote][/quote]
Re: Dyslexia question?
Hi Rebecca,
<<I read this about tracking from a Doctor on a list that I am a part of and it made perfect sense to me because I have folks in my family who do this. I thought I would share this much with you because it might help you. {OUOTE}If you are a visual dyslexic (dyseidesia) then you likely are a slow dysfluent reader, have a tendency to struggle with reading comprehension, tend to read out loud to yourself (instead of going from vision to language comprehension) you take the visual symbols and convert them into an auditory stimulus thus improving “reading” comprehension tasks by trying to convert them into a “listening” task, and perhaps
spell well phonetically (the way words sound) rather than accurately
(the way words look). There may still be a tendency to read words sound by sound and a likelihood of needing numerous exposures to a word before it becomes part of your sight word vocabulary.{/QUOTE}>>
I don’t know Rebecca, maybe one reason I debated with you about Dyslexia is all these classifications are too confusing for me:)). Like most of labels, some of what you say fits and the rest doesn’t. Since I have had mild decoding difficulties, I don’t think I read words by their sounds.
When you say I need multiple exposure to a word, I am not sure that is true decoding wise. But it takes me forever to learn new meanings. It is true my comprehension is alot better when I can read and listen to a passage at the same time.
I could swear my spelling has never been a problem but recently, thanks to middle age I guess is starting to decline. That is a mystery to me.
Thanks, I am very familiar with Doug Stephey and have spoken to him by phone. Very nice person and very generous with his time.
<<It is my thought that by narrowing down dyslexia to only dysphonesia (auditory based dyslexia) type dyslexia and ignoring dyseidesia (vision based dyslexia) will leave a lot of folks still struggling with reading. Kind of like only treating the language delay in Autism because that is usually the biggest delay and then saying the Autistic person is remediated.>>
Excellent point! They do that with NLD and try to say that the social difficulties are the big problem area over everything else. Not true with me.
<< Hope this made sense.>>
It does, thanks.
PT
Re: meaning of dyslexia
<<The word ‘dyslexia’ literally means ‘dys’ a problem or interference and ‘lexia’ language.
While many people use the word to indicate a reading disability, dyslexic children many have any one of a number of problems with language ie spoken or written language. Some dyslexic children might read well, others not at all well.>>
Hi Sara,
Question. I have a friend who has a similar profile to mine as we don’t seem to neatly fit one label. This person reads well but due to difficulties with grammar, struggles with writing. She/he wondered if that was part of Dyslexia or simply Dysgraphia.
PT
Re: Dyslexia question?
PT,
I am glad that it made sense. I did not use Dr.Doug Stephey name because I was not sure if he would want me to :? There is a Doc in IL named Dr. Neil Margolis who worked with my son and who has spoken at a couple of Autism conferences that I Mcd who speaks about almost the same things that Dr. Stephey writes/ posts. He also has one of the best bed side manners with young children of any Doc we have seen and we have seen enough to last a life time :roll:
I know that my son made tremendous improvement with his vision after seeing Dr. Margolis. He had almost no focal vision but after working on the activities that Dr. Margolis mapped out my son was able to eat with a spoon and do puzzles, ect… stuff he had never done before.
I really do think that a holistic approach is the best way to go but that is my opinion and experience. I hope that you find the answers to your problems.
Rebecca
Re: I have lost track:))
des:
<I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)>>
PT:
>LOL at your NOS NLD statement. I have got the ADHD NOS one so it would be perfect if I could get the NLD one. Ok, I am really getting silly.
des:
Of course you’re not being silly, the DSM is loaded with NOS of just about everything, why not NLD NOS.
des:
<<I read a book— can’t recall name— that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn’t go that far, but she has a point.>>
PT:
The Reading Reflex Book, maybe?
des:
Nope but it was a McGuinness book.
des:
<Well true enough. I don’t think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners’ kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do. >>
Pt:
I definitely do also.
When you were born or whenever you forgot to read the books/articles that would tell you how to come out. Now I’m getting silly and for real.
BTW, someone mentioned dyslexia as a definition— strictly dividing the word up into it’s roots. It’s nice if it were greek or something which it isn’t. I do know that some dyslexic kids have difficulty with verbal language, writing (dysgraphia), articulation, etc. But I have never heard of it applying to a child that did read well. I think the *word* dyslexia may be built on it’s greek (or whatever) components but the concept is based on the brain damage condition known as alexia. This is when a person can’t read after some type of brain damage. There are several other conditions where the terms are used in a similar way, afaik. When a child only has trouble with language, it’s called specific language disorder— there’s a greek (maybe) term for that.
>PT
—des
PT[/quote][/quote][/quote]
[quote] everytime she wanted a drink she would bring me her cup and say “Looks like it’s empty.”. That is the way she learned to talk…in “copied” phrases. [/quote]
That is exactly what delayed echolalia is. As the child grows the phrases will be used in a more appropriate manner and will become more sophisticated. Sometimes to the point where a non SLP (Speech and Language Pathologist) will have no idea that the person is using delayed echolalia to communicate.
Just as the words in the phrase, “Looks like it’s empty.” could not be manipulated to say, “It looks empty.” Many folks who used delayed echolalia can not manipulate the phonemes in a word or even pull the word apart by phoneme. The word cat is the chunk cat unless a lot of AP work is done and only then can the person segement the word cat as /k/…/a/…./t/.
FFW is the quickest way to remediate if the CAPD issues are there and they almost always are when delayed echolalia is present. LindamoodBell therapy is another more expensive and much longer way to work on AP skills. LIPS is a intensive therapy/reading program program that would be received at a LindamoodBell therapy center to work on severe AP and reading skills.
We chose to go the FFW PG route because it was the quickest and most logical way to go. My oldest son made an 18 month language gain with 9 weeks of FFW and my youngest son ended FFW with language skills a year above his age level. That written PG would not have worked if we had not done FFW first.
There are two LindamoodBell centers in the Chicago land area. If I understand it right PG and LindamoodBell are from the same school of thought. The gals who developed and wrote LIPS and V/V were students of Dr. Diane McGuinness as were Carmen and Geoffrey (Diane’s son) McGuinness who wrote RR and developed PG. PG and LIPS hold common elements however LIPS is for a child with severe AP problems and takes a long time to implement and is very intensive. LIPS therpay in the Chicago area is around $50 to $70 an hour and a lot of kids will need 2 to 3 sessions a week for 24 or more weeks depending on the severity of the LD issues. For us it was cost and time effective to go the FFW and PG route.
Hope that made sense and helps :?
Rebecca