Seeing Stars

I can’t exactly answer your question, but someone that works for Lindamood Bell said they never do LiPS alone anymore. They move as quickly as possible into Seeing Stars. The Lindamood Bell site gives a basic description of the program.

Janis

<<Aside from saying a word and tracing it in the air, how does Seeing Stars work?>>

That’s Step 3 of the program. Step 2 is with the consonants and vowel—same process. But when you get to Step 4, you’re adding some exercises to go along with it. For instance, I would say, “sat” and the child would say it and spell it with his finger on the syllable card aloud. Then I would say, “change ‘sat” to “sit”, and he would spell it. Then I would say, change ‘sit” to ‘slit”. He would spell it. Then to work on his visual memory, I would say, what is the third letter? He would tell me “i”. Then I would say, spell it backwards. Then I would have him spell it the correct way again.

When the child gets to multisyllabic words, you would do the same thing, but rather than changing individual letters, you would change syllable parts (con ip tion to con ip ture, and you would do the same exercises as above—in the third syllable, what is the second letter; spell the syllable backwards, and then forward, again. By the middle of the program, it has truly become a multisensory experience—combining auditory, motor, and visual channels.

My fifth and sixth graders have really enjoyed using this program. I love using this program!

Marilyn

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Hi, Marilyn,

It’s very good to see you here! I want to ask you a question. Did you take the training in Seeing Stars? Do you think I could use it before having the training? (I took V/V and OCN this summer).

Also, what were the results of the Fast ForWord use?

Janis

Hi Janis:

<<Did you take the training in Seeing Stars? Do you think I could use it before having the training? (I took V/V and OCN this summer).>>

Yes, I did about four or five years ago. Then, it was a 2-day training—now it’s three. And yes, you should have no trouble using the program without the training. It’s pretty easy to follow. Nanci Bell
did a fantastic job describing each part of the lesson in her book.

Now, please tell me your opinion on On Cloud Nine. I’ve heard mixed reviews. Also, to change the subject slightly—when you took your Level 1 training in Language!, did they happen to describe how Level 2 and 3 differs from Level 1? I was a bit confused about the materials. It looks like the materials are the same. How would middle and high school kids react to such a program? I know Sally Shaywitz in her book really endorsed the program for this age group.

Marilyn

Hi again, Marilyn,

On Cloud Nine teaches some nice strategies for things like learning math facts and word problems. I have not read the whole manual yet, but I think it would be one that you could just learn the strategies by reading the book. I’m sure it is similar to Seeing Stars in that it tries to get the kids to image the math facts, etc. But it is definitely for essential skills, not a complete math curriculum. I am looking forward to trying it!

Language! would not be good for younger (K-3) kids. It really is designed for the older ones. I did not look closely at level two and we do not have level 3 yet. But, my understanding is that if you finish levels 1 and 2 by the end of fifth grade, then the child should be ready for 6th grade. So kids who do not yet have reading/written language skills at grade level in 6th grade and up would be perfect to go on into Language! We have some people trying it in fourth grade right now. But they are planning to train some middle school teachers soon. I really think that’s the population it was designed for. I think level three goes into skills which are definitely above elementary level so that middle and highschoolers who have not yet been remediated go all the way through level 3. Each level is designed to take a year to complete. Oh, one thing I do know is that level one teaches the “code” and level 2 gets into syllable types. So there is definitely an increase in difficulty of skills from one level to the next. I’d say that a middle school LD teacher would have it made if they had the Language! program (with training). You’d surely know you had every possible component to a complete language arts program!

But I am more intrigued by Lindamood Bell at the moment. I think they have some things no one else does.

Janis

Janis:

Thanks very much for your reply. So in Language! a middle school teacher would still start with Level 1 readers, but would buy the Level 3 kit? Otherwise this could become a very expensive proposition.

I really do like Lindamood-Bell materials for the younger kids, but I have to tell you that I could not get the older kids interested in the V/V at all. Once past the fourth grade level, they just don’t have the background knowledge to visualize, and they start making up stories instead.

As much as I love and have had success with LiPS and Seeing Starts with my fifth and some sixth graders, it is very hard to get the 7th and 8th graders interested in it. They like the Wilson, better.

Also, I just remembered that you asked me about the Princeton U. results for FF. I haven’t heard a thing! I would love to find out as well.

Marilyn

Marilyn,

I am sorry to tell you that middle school teachers and up need all three levels of Language!. The readers for each level are correlated to that level. A child is pretested to know where to begin. My trainer told us to give the encoding (spelling) test as it was the best indicator as to where to begin. Some kids will need to begin with the beginning of level 1 and others may start at a later point. My child, for example, placed at level 1, unit 6. The words she was asked to spell at that level were -ck endings.

The elementary teacher’s trainig kit includes everything necessary for kids through 5th grade. Middle and High school teachers order the secondary kit which includes all three levels and is over $500, I believe. It is an incredible amount of material, though. The most complete curriculum I’ve ever seen. Possibly too much to cover! Training is very helpful in figuring it out.

Janis

Hope you don’t mind me butting in to your discussion…I teach writing part-time at a middle school for LDers, and am trained in V/V, Seeing Stars, and PhonoGraphix. I also tutor privately (which is why I’m part-time at the MS).

I agree with you Marylin, that it might be hard to get older kids interest in V/V in the classroom, so I introduce it when we are beginning descriptive writing. Generally, the students love the time we spend making class images, but the ones who don’t visualize well do tend to hide in the background. It does, however, give even my best visualizers some tools to use in their descriptive essays beyond their five senses.

However, in one-on-one tutoring, V/V is terrific, and even those students who have the most difficulty visualizing will practice the skill in a safe environment without any observers. I’ve been really please with the progress two of my middle schoolers made this summer in comprehension, and their teachers are already telling me that they can tell a difference in reading comprehension from last year. (One student went from the 9th to 25th percentile, and the other from the 16th to the 50th, as measured by the GORT-A and GORT-B).

I used the Richard Boning Specific Skills Series to reinforce the skills I was teaching, and to teach test-taking skills (NCLB!) These did seem to help. particularly since the students had about an hour of homework between tutoring sessions.

I’ve never used or been trained in Wilson, although my school offeres it in summer school. What does it do differently that makes it more appealing to middle schoolers?

Hi, Guest,

I very much agree that V/V is best one-on-one as are most of the programs. I teach one-on-one mostly, so I am usually thinking in those terms.

Now I have a question for you! I would like to hear your comparison of Seeing Stars and PG. I already have PG, but after taking the V/V and OCN from Lindamood Bell this summer, I am pretty intrigued by their programs and would like to learn Seeing Stars. What advantages does it have, if any over PG? (I have some ideas, but I’d love to hear from someone who has been trained in or uses both).

Thanks,
Janis

Janis, I have the manuals (well the book for PG) and the SS manual. It seems to me that SS doesn’t provide a decoding strategy as PG does. SS is pretty much for kids who can decode (or are learning decoding some other way) but can’t remember the words and can’t remember spellings. I think the two programs could be used in a complimentary fashion. SS has the kid visualizing not only letters and letter patterns but manipulates letters around visually (ie replace an “i” for an “e”). Of course PG doesn’t teach letter names, but most kids know them anyway. SS looks very teacher/tutor friendly. (Not quite as much as V/V imo as there are lots of syllables or letter patterns to copy if you want to use it— and they are expensive if you want to buy them, but no reason you have to make them all.) There is also a strategy for teaching sight words in SS which is not in PG, so this might be useful for a kid who has trouble remembering them.

—des

Thanks, des! They must teach all the sound/symbols in LiPS, then. I think Seeing Stars does have components missing in PG, so I definitely want to learn it. It does go further in working on automaticity than PG does. I think PG assumes the child will be just fin eafter you do thier last lesson! But fluency comes so slowly for some of the kids.

I guess it does sound like you can either use PG/SS or LiPS/SS, and that’s good!

Janis

Yeah, my understanding of the literature (I have not taken any courses— yet) is that LiPs is rarely taught without introducing SS at some point. And OCN is not taught without teaching V/V at least at some level. The programs complement each other nicely. However, the SS manual does discuss (briefly) using some other phonics program for teaching the decoding.

I dont’ think LiPs would be necessary for everybody. But for the kids who need it, I don’t know of anything that woudl work quite as well. PG and OG don’t break down the language enough for some kids.

BTW, I was just observing that this thread could be totally unintelligible for someone who didn’t know all these cute little initials. You gotta know the code first, seems to apply to other things besides reading. :-)

—des

Knowing the “code”…isn’t that the truth!!!

I’m glad we had this discussion becuase I was talking with someone on a reading list who was asking about using PG with LiPS or SS. I will tell her she can use PG with SS.

I did take OCN and V/V this summer and you are very correct that they complement each other. I really loved those trainings, especially V/V.

Janis

Janis:

<<Middle and High school teachers order the secondary kit which includes all three levels and is over $500, I believe. It is an incredible amount of material, though.>>

Now, I get it. Thanks!

Marilyn

Guest:

Of course you’re welcome to butt in. That’s how we learn from one another!

<<I used the Richard Boning Specific Skills Series to reinforce the skills I was teaching, and to teach test-taking skills (NCLB!) These did seem to help. particularly since the students had about an hour of homework between tutoring sessions.>>

I have been using these as well, but I find that the kids have to really be interested in the topic. I like using the V/V books The passages are more descriptive. Also, they just came out with two more books that I plan to order. I have the history books, but again, couldn’t get the kids interested in the topics.

<<I’ve never used or been trained in Wilson, although my school offeres it in summer school. What does it do differently that makes it more appealing to middle schoolers?>>

It might be the way the program is formatted. They just don’t feel embarrassed by it. Other than repeating the names of letters, key words and sounds, they do not see it as being babyish. Also, they get to read lists of words, sentences, and stories, which is absent in LiPS. Ideally, for the most severe reading disabled, I would like to teach the rudiments of LiPS, and then go to Wilson and SEEING STARS. In Wilson, the fonts and their sizes are meant for older kids, and the stories are written for teens—going on a date; shopping at the mall, etc. The combination of LiPS and SEEING STARS does not have passage reading attached to it, whereas, Wilson has the multisensory component as well as passage reading.

Personally, I like LB and Wilson, equally. It depends on the students and age groups involved. With my fifth graders, I can use all three, successfully.

Marilyn