His teachers thought I was crazy!!! Dysgraphia

your son sounds alot like me. i was diagnosed with that when i was 12. i am now 23. first of all im sure he can give a speech in class no problem so have him stick to his strengths. notes might not be nessicary for him right now but make sure he takes them cause they are a must in colledge no matter how good your memory is. last have him take english in the summer allso. because his wrighting can and will get worse if he lets it get rusty. thats about it. unfortunatly its some thing he is going to have to live with

also, if your son gets sever anxiety or panic attacks at the thought of wrighting or by wrighting (i know i do) take a hour break and do something very active run a mile play some b-ball. im not sure what happens but your brain releaces endorphans (runners high) and that will almost allways help with wrighters block. the grammer and punctuation i dont konw how to help with atht as you can see i stoped worring about that a long time ago.

Hi, pparker,

I am glad you found this site! There is so much outstanding information available here!

First of all, have you read all the articles under LD InDepth regarding writing and dysgraphia?

http://www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/writing/writing.html

I am afraid many of us know much more about reading disorders than the writing. That’s probably why it was overlooked for so long at school. You son is very gifted, so he has been able to compensate to some degree, obviously.

I hope by reading the articles it can help you to find a specialist in this area to help your son. In school language, this woudl eb termed a learning disability in written expression. If you choose to havev that officially recognized at school, you must request an evaluation. However, I’ll be very honest, it is unlikely that they woudl know how to help him. I’d look for a private LD clinic or tutor familiar with dysgraphia. And make yourself an advocate for him to get some modifications at school (like typing instead of handwriting assignments, just as an example).

Janis

Sure sounds like a problem to me! There are a couple things I can think:
First does he know how to type? Of course there are times you just
can’t do ti, but this might be useful.

Another thing is that there is a really user friendly handwriting program a lot of people here have a had success with, it’s called “Handwriting without Tears” (webpage: http://www.hwtears.com). Some of the drawings are too childish for a 7th grader, but you can just get the teacher’s manual for cursive (or printing— maybe give him a choice as to what he wants to learn at this stage) and some extra lined paper. She recommends spending no more than 5 minutes a day on it. The materials are pretty inexpensive.

I have my doubts about the “nationally known” centers. You might find a private tutor or even friend if you aren’t really up to working with your teenager. The materials are easy to follow.

—des

Your description of your son’s problems sounds like classic dysgraphia to me. You might be interested in taking at look at some books like “Why Johnny Can’t Write”.

One of my own sons had severe dysgraphia. In the 7th grade, I started to let him dictate his assignments to me. I typed as he talked (and when he drew a blank, I filled in the gaps) Otherwise school would have been impossible for him. As it was, it was horribly difficult.

There aren’t enough hours in the evening for a dysgraphic student to finish their work in the the traditional way. Teachers give assignments to a whole room full of kids. That one assignment can’t be the right one for every student in the room.

Writing practice does not help dysgraphia. At present there is little to do to remediate dysgraphia although my own son’s has slowly improved with time.

What if your son (heaven forbid) had no hands or arms? Would they expect him to write up his own 1-2 page narrative? Likely not. The same accomodations given to students with physical disabilities in their hands and arms should be given to dysgraphic students.

Check out a book called Educational Care by Mel Levine and look up dysgraphia.

Good luck to you and your son from me and mine.

I agree that writing practice (as in writing stuff over and over again) doesn’t help dysgraphia. But the approach in Handwriting without tears is different: approaches handwriting differently, simplifies the writing process, etc. And to my knowledge DOES work at least with some dysgraphics. BTW, instead of practicing over and over, you practice one or two repetitions but get them right. It think it is worth a try. To say dysgraphia can’t ever be remediated is like saying dyslexia can’t be.

However, I think there are kids for whom it will not work. I would also guess that with dysgraphics, handwriting won’t ever be the most fun thing they do all day or the best method to get out info. I agree with looking into accommodations.

—des

My LD son had major handwriting issues—just wore out—could not write more than a few sentences even though his handwriting looked fine. We did Interactive Metronome and it made a tremendous difference. He passed state wide testing last year in writing without accomodations. The child still can’t spell and doesn’t capitalize either but he is doing so much better. He also was able to learn cursive—something that was impossible for him before.

Handwriting still tires him out more than other kids but he is functional now, which he was not before.

My friend’s son has done IM and had the same results.

Beth

This may be off subject yet it remains in the flow of conversation:

Sara (and all) ?
I’ve really found your common sense and level headed posts to be right on target, and this anatomical to neurological accommodations comparison of someone who is armless to someone who is dysgraphic is compassionately compelling.

Yet, how would you readily distinguish someone with chronic poor handwriting skills, little motivation and/or social issues that influence their correcting them from a (as stated in the past) “true dysgraphic?”

I believe I know what you mean or, where you are going with the ‘True’ descriptor yet, I’ve always wanted to know how you objectivly define and differentiate the true from the poorly trained.

If my direct question is off track from the original post, I’d like to open another topic line to discuss Dysgraphia. It would be great to hear more of how this condition is distinguished from poor handwriters as well as attitudes and methods of mediation (Reasoning of why it can be/can’t be …. perceptually, cognitively and kinestheticly or, with assistive allowances) by Special Ed teachers, OT’s, and concerned parents.

?

Bill

Bill, I think you ask a difficult question. I’m not sure I’m going to answer it , but I have some comments:
It is difficult. In reading, we can pretty well tell. There is so much garbage going on in the name of reading instruction that many kids with “reading disorders” ought to be thought of as having poor teaching. Of course some kids will learn to read with this poor teaching. Now say you exposed all kids to a good basal like Open Court, I think you might get a better idea of who was really dyslexic. But what if you exposed everyone early to PG, the Wilson early reading program, or LMB. If 99-99% of the kids read, then you might have no idea because all of these are research based and able to teach dyslexics. As for poor motivation, I wonder about this one. I taught high school “high risk” kids that were nonreaders. When approached with a method allowing success, many of them came away as “motivated”. So when there is lack of motivation, I think many times it means “lack of success”. Of course we know that many kids don’t like to spell. But is it because they can’t or they won’t? My guess is that if the rules of language are sufficiently internalized then there wouldn’t be a motivation problem. It is just as easy for me to spell correctly as misspell. So motivation is not a factor.

In math there is a lot of talk about “sloppy errors” but since a lot of these errors follow patterns (adding vs substracting, reversing nos , lining up incorrectly), they may be more a function of disability or even poor teaching than “sloppiness”. The better the math student the less they will have “sloppy errors”.

As for handwriting, most kids are now getting little writing instruction as I have heard (may be incorrect). We know that D’Neillan has several problems: slant, order of instruction, unnecessary frills on the letters that make them more challenging, etc. So maybe if all kids were taught via Zaner Bloser we might have a better idea. BUT if all kids were taught via Handwritng without tears we would not, as it will work with some dysgraphics.

One thing I have heard from adult dysgraphics is that writing is uncomfortable or painful, I am not sure if this applies to kids who were taught say with hwt??

Just a few ramblings.

—des

I just found this site tonight and the first thing I read says just how I am feeling. My 12 year old girl who has always been on the honor role has just been found eligible for and IEP. Until the end of 6th grade I thought everything was just fine. I always thought her handwritting was horrible and even talked to the school about getting some OT for her back in 2nd grade of course becase of her grades they said there is nothing wrong. Her SOL and Standford scores but her in the above average range. Last year in middle school the teacher called me and said we have a problem. I thought she was crazy. Anyway I took her and had tested and sure enough there was a problem. She understands it all she just can’t get it to the paper. They are talking about having her use a computer but I have mixed feelings on that. I want her to learn to write not just depend on the keyboard. It really does look like a 2nd graders writting. I don’t have much faith with the IEP either. It is written in there that she is to be given a hard copy of notes to study and she isn’t she already has copied about 5 pages in 3 days of school.

If any one has advice please contact me. Also my 7 year old son has an IEP. There are so many problems there with his school I could write a book. SOMEONE HELP BEFORE I GO CRAZY

I think it is very important for dysgraphic (disability in writing) to learn keyboarding. That said, I think there is something to be said for teaching handwriting.

Take a look at: http://www.hwtears.com
This is a very good program in teaching handwriting with some modifications in technique, style of teaching, and simplification of the actual letters. Many parents have used this and had a good deal of success with it. It is very user friendly. As for the materials, I would decide what you want to teach, print or cursive, then get the teacher’s manual and some paper. I dont’ think you can use the book with a kid her age as they haven’t yet made older kid friendly books.

Another thing si that I think you need to start thinking of modifications and ways to get around the writing as I don’t think this will ever be her easiest thing. Esp for note taking, etc.

—des

My first question would be - why do we want to know the difference between the ‘true’ dysgraphic and the poor handwriter etc. etc.? If it’s because we want to be sure of the difference because we’re going to treat the ‘illness’, then of course we want to know the difference.

Many t times when I’m asked such a question it’s because my dear colleagues in teaching are interested in weeding out ‘those who just don’t try’ and applying some punitive measure to ‘make’ them write better or spell better or read better. That approach to teaching isn’t my approach.

I don’t believe there is any such thing as ‘just poor handwriting’. There’s a reason for handwriting to look the way it does. A runny nose is caused by something whether we can find the cause or not. Poor handwriting is caused by something. Sometimes that something is ADD, sometimes fine motor issues, sometimes a dysgraphia etc. etc. Sometimes it’s a discouraged child.

How do you tell the child with cerebral palsy from the child with a broken arm? The writing of a dysgraphic child speaks for itself. it has a unique quality to it and the struggles of the child to produce it are equally unique.

If you want to approximate what it’s like to be dysgraphic, have someone read or speak some sentences in a foreign language to you and then you try to write out what they’re saying. And… unless you have been granted the accomodation of extended time, be sure to try to write it out quickly.

If you want to try it on your own, do this. The brown cow jumped over the sleeping dog.

Now write that sentence in Greek, or Rumanian or any language you don’t speak. That great blank that you’re drawing - the inability of the brain to ‘translate’ the thought into writing- is the blank of the dysgraphic. A ‘true’ dsygraphic cannot translate thought into the symbolic language that is written expression.

I’d recommend you get hold of some books among them Why Johnny Can’t Write and Mel Levine’s Educational Care. You might find it helpful to know more about handwriting.

The problem your daughter has - and my son had- is how to keep up in school while catching up in the skill they’re behind in. This school is suggesting she use a computer to keep up so she can be successful in school. There’s no ‘quick fix’ for her handwriting and if you want her to remain successful in school, I’d let her use the computer they’re suggesting. There’s also a fairly inexpensive device called an ‘Alphasmart’ that you and the school might look into. She could carry that to class and take notes with it. And let’s remember that writing on computers is really what we all do now. It’s how you posted your question and how I’m answering it.

She’s old for OT now but if OT is available to her now, you could always give it a try. Many people on these bulletin boards are fans of a program called Handwriting Without Tears and you could look into that but I’d leave such things for summer when there’s more time.

Good luck.

www.resourceroom.net has some great ideas for dealing with dysgraphia. I think you might benefit from looking this up. I don’t know if this was mentioned before.

As for the program Handwriting without tears, she advocates no more than about 5-10 minutes of practice a day. The emphasis is on *correct* practice vs just practicing the same misformed letters over and over.
So I don’t think it would be too much unless the kid is very stressed.

—des

What’s the difference between dysgraphia and a learning disability in written expression? My son was identified with an LD in written expression. Although he has sort of sloppy writing, it is legible. His problem is more in going from his brain to the written word, not from his hand to physically writing the words.

As far as most people use the words, you hit the nail on the head in your description. People are more likely to be talking about a coordination and motor problem when they say “dysgraphia,” and “LD in written expression” if it’s a problem making the language say what the kid wants it to say.
Also, like “dyslexia,” a school often doesn’t use the word because that’s not on their List Of Disorders That You Might Be Eligible For Special Education If You Have, and it is strictly a semantic difference.

Many times, in the school system, a child with terrible hand-writing will be dismissed. As simply being lazy. Since in most classes, the grades are good. The Teacher, will instruct Mom, or Dad, to have Jr. write and write.

When you do this and things, donot improve, realize there is a motor skills problem. It needs to be addressed in a 504 plan, which can be a modification of the writing.
If you had a child with a broke leg, would you make them run the 50 yard dash? No!!! Many times a child with this problem, will have inattentive ADD. That is why, it gets missed, due to the fact the child is not hyper. It is just inattention.

Dygraphia, can also be a cause. A 504, can be used to modify, without testing. As schools try to save their dollars.

Contact a Child Development Clinic, or have your Primary Physician refer. you to a Neurologist, for children. Most insurance will pay for a tova test. They will not always pay for testing by the clinic.

Since this can take a while. Notify school, that you want all hand-written assignments modified. He can type it, or if it will not be part of a test, he does not have to write it at all. Since the writing can be hard to read, he can give report orally to the school tutor. Most of these children learn visually.

Above all, understand he is not doing this on purpose. Praise him when he does do a good job. You may find one day he does good, the next he does not. As soon as possible, stop the harassment of the child by Teachers and yourself.
You see, he knows he does not write well. So does his peers, as some will grade his papers.
This is an area, we all take for granted. Yes, it is very real, and very misunderstood. I know, it happened to my son.
We did not stop all writing, it just was shortened.

Hi,

I have a 6th grader! He sounds much like your son. My kid has ADHD and was recently given a test of written expression by his prescribing doctors because one of his teachers indicated she thought he was below level with handwriting skills.

It was taking HOURS for my son to complete homework assignments, because he wouldn’t complete them in class, so they became clomework.

Anyway, the test indicated that he was very below level developmentally for kid his age in writing motor speed. He took a timed writing test where he had to copy information for about 2-3 minutes. He printed on a 4th grade level, and didn’t even chart for cursive writing. I’m planning to have him tested further so my husband and I will know exactly what he is capable of realistically doing. This semester has been difficult and time consuming. It’s hard when you have a bright kid, who doesn’t have the ability to effectively show what he knows.

My son also has a high IQ, but his handwriting is so below norm that it is considered a disability.

Testing revealed my son is dysgraphic (has trouble with letter formation, etc), and this is considered a learning disabilty.

If you have a writing evaluation done for your son, the doctor will give you a form stating the problems your son has, and what accomodations should be given to him. I would then file and Individual Education Plan asking for modifications for your son. They can’t argue very much if a doctor has officially diagnosed a disability. If you have and IEP, supposedly they are required by law to honor it.

I haven’t gotten far enough to want to ask for the IEP for my son. He does well academically, but again - the writing is slow. As he progresses I can see that notetaking will be very difficult for him.

My son’s teachers are allowing him to type notes and assignments in class when needed. It has been a timesaver.

You need to check into a computer program called Inspiration 7.5 for your son. There is a free trial download on the website. This is a graphic organization program that lets people mind-map, and then the information can be turned into outline forms for editing. I haven’t bought it yet, but I plan to. It has been a tremendous help for my child. His history teacher uses this program also.

The word “dysgraphia” wasn’t used when we were around, but my daughter and I both match the characteristics. When she was in Grade 12 she even commented to me about her writing looking at best like a sixth-graders. I offer help from experience as student, parent, and teacher, outline offer below.

Several issues:
(1) I feel rather strongly about the keyboards-as-a-solution issue. Yes, we use keyboarding a lot. Yes, the student should learn keyboarding. BUT (a) we are still a long way from having the keyboard surgically implanted. You very very very often have to write a quick note or memo or or shopping list or whatever, and it is not generally practical to keyboard every single thing. It is best to learn at least a functional level of handwriting for day-to-day work; give that up only as a last resort after really making the best try possible. (b) You don’t know what you or a student can learn until you really try. Both daughter and I could read the New York Times before we could print a legible sentence. It would have been very easy to give up and decide we were unteachable and have us keyboard everything. Luckily I had my mother who hung in there and Mrs. Ross in Grade 3 (the one with dip pens and inkwells — it worked); my daughter had me hanging in there. We were in our twenties before the hand coordination came together, but so what?
(c) Keyboarding is NOT easy for everyone. Hard as I found handwriting, I found keyboarding ten times worse. It could drive me to exhaustion and tears in a few minutes. I learned to write passably in five or six years; was over thirty before I even began to come to grips with a keyboard. Daughter learned to write passably in five or six years, although in a home with a computer since age eight, typed with one finger until senior high. It is just not the panacea that many people make it out to be.

(2) I have seen quotes from the Handwriting Without Tears and it seems like a very good plan, essentially the same as worked with me and my daughter, and the same I use in tutoring my students. The idea of short but regular practice, and of never practicing a mistake, is classic good pedagogy and to be strongly recommended. My one disagreement with HWT is the amount of unnecessary cutesiness which both offends older students and distracts the distractible. I use a more direct approach, same methodology. I have typed up a short outline of how I teach no-frills writing to some kids with extreme difficulties, and I will email it to you on request to [email protected] There are no strings attached to this offer.
(my apologies to others who have asked for my reading outlines; I am having computer problems and have a hard time sending the big articles. Will try again on request.)

(3) The testing/diagnosis/degree of handicap issue is a swamp.

Des, for the first time I disagree with you! You spot a “true” dysgraphis the same way you spot a “true” dyslexic. It is a diagnosis of negatives: first, you test vision, hearing, basic language knowledge, hand functioning, general health, and you find the child does NOT have any problems in these fields. Then you check that the child has been attending school regularly and in a consistent program (I tutored in one area where they had adopted various well-known handwriting programs — three *different* programs in six years of school — no wonder no kids in that district could write legibly!) and you find that the child has NOT had a disrupted education. Then you check that the teachers have actually been teaching a handwriting program (many nowadays just hand out worksheets and hope and pray it gets picked up somewhere, same as WL “reading”) and you find out that the child’s education has NOT been neglected. Then to make sure and to do your best you try a tutoring program such as HWT or my homemade approach, that is based on scientific knowledge and good pedagogy and systematic planning and so on, and you give the child reasonable time to work on correcting the problems. If the child *still* has difficulty and needs much extra time and help and shows up other background problems, then you know you have a true dysgraphic on your hands, and you look into the other problems and find appropriate training programs available such as OT, VT, IM, PACE, Audiblocks, and so on and so forth. The advantage of this approach is that you identify the problem and treat it at the same time, and you don’t waste time and the big guns on dysteachia that can be solved with much simpler interventions. But the “true” problem especially in a severe form is different from all the other weaknesses that can occur for other reasons, and takes more intensive and creative intervention.

Testing is a good thing if it is used to give you info as to how to proceed and teach the student better; and a very bad thing if it becomes an end in itself, or if it is used to label the student and warehouse him as unteachable. Test with caution and always ask what good this test is going to do for the education of the student.

Disability — well, yes, a child with no arms won’t handwrite — although it is amazing what some people will do with prostheses. There’s an ad on our local TV for an amputee organization, with a classical violinist missing his right arm from above the elbow.
A child with functioning hands and so on who has a neurological glitch that makes this very difficult for him — it is really, really hard to say for anyone else how difficult. It isn’t easy to sort out the true disability. Teachers often make mistakes, but give credit to teachers who try to get kids to expand their horizons rather than giving up on teaching them.
Writing in particular is one of the most difficult feats of coordination most people ever do. It takes many years of practice for *all* students. If you give up at step one and never do these years of practice, yes it may seem an impossible feat to catch up. A lot of people, students and parents alike, have unrealistic expectations; if you can’t do a couple of hours of tutoring and catch up with the very best kid in the class with no sweat, then it isn’t worth trying. This is an unproductive approach to anything in life.
How about, since most kids spend from kindergarten to Grade 5 developing a legible handwriting, a little bit at a time, that being six years, you try being patient with yourself for at least a year and preferably two of tutoring, just doing one little thing at a time. MOST students can get real improvement in handwriting with ten minutes a day (or, as I am limited to, twenty minutes a time twice a week) working on one new letter/form at a time and continually reviewing old issues.
Meanwhile yes, you do use a scribe or whatever works for you to deal with the here and now of homework assignments.
After two years of a bit at a time, done properly, almost everyone will improve. If you really are a true very severe dysgraphic and even that doesn’t make a dent, then it’s time to go for the accommodations and keyboard everything and all that. But it’s worth trying being patient with yourself first.

Throughout my elementary school years I struggled with handwriting. I think teachers thought something was the matter with me. My mom tells me that my school often put me in reading groups below my reading level due to this disability and the fact I have a speech impediment.

I did not learn to tie my shoes till sixth grade.

I did not start to overcome my disability until fifth and sixth grade.

I took college prep classes in high school and made National Honors Society. One of the library aides saw my handwriting and said that someone in Honor Society should not have the handwriting I have. That remark really ticked me off. I got her back with a poem published in the literary magazine of my school.

I then went to community college for 2 years. The 3rd quarter I was there I had this teacher that did not apprechiate my math work often being sloppy. I did not care for that woman.

Recently, I had done a little bit of subbing. I subbed two days in 1st grade. The second day at one school another teacher came in to sub with me. One of the things that bothered me was the fact she was not as understanding on things as I was. In a few lessons the 1st graders were supposed to color. This sub graded on how well the students colored which I thought was stupid, because unless you are going to art school or something like that, it is not going to matter how one colors.

There was one boy who never got any work done because he was too afraid of his handwriting I suspect. I believed he could do the work.

My son was diagnosed recently with dysgraphia, as a high schooler. Same issues, poor writing skills, high IQ, can verbalize extremely well. But the fun part has been trying to get his English teacher to accept this. We are making gains, and the biggest issue is that through all of the frustrations, it is important to celebrate the little gains. Having a positive attitude with a kid who knows he is intelligent, but extremely frustrated at the lack of performance has started turning things around. The parent is the strongest advocate. I do as much reading as I can get my hands on, and ask any question that arise. We also make sure we stand right behind him in the battle with those who refuse to accept the reality of working with students with LD’s.

Hi. God praise the families that support their LD kids.
I know that my parents put the Majority Burden of support on
the schools and colleges. My father was bitter about the expense
of LD testing, taking “precious time out of his days” to take me to
Columbia University — Teachers College ( in 1968—1969 ) to be
tested for LD. In 2nd grade, and later in 8th grade, I took up
typing. Typing/Keyboarding will save many problems with
Dysgraphia. Math homework will be difficult.

Good luck.

I work with LD kids in one on one therapy. I thought of an idea for penmanship paper and I am wondering if there is such a product out there somewhere. Has anyone heard of a resource for paper that has a slightly raised line or slightly lowered line, that would form a kind of “gutter” within the lines to help students “feel” when to stop. Does this make sense or is it a bad idea? If anyone knows of somewhere that sells a product like this please respond. Thanks!

Paper with raised lines used to be used for students with visual handicaps. It may still exist in specialty stores, but it just doesn’t seem to be a big factor.

It doesn’t seem to help much for writing problems; in fact, when I tutor writing, I either ignore lines entirely at first or use huge lines, an inch or two inches apart. I actively encourage students to learn to write with large, free motions. *After* the large, loose, free motions are in place, *then* you can work on getting down to average size. This does work, and I’m on my fifth student this year doing this effectively.

I am not a big fan of the idea of giving up entirely on handwriting and using only typing. First, if the student has the kind of coordination problem I and my daughter have, typing is much more difficult and this makes the situation even worse. Second, there is still the problem of how to do math and to fill in worksheets etc.; and what about short memos at work and phone notes and so on? Third, the student is absolutely dependent on the computer and has to lug it everywhere and explain it during tests etc. Altogether this computer approach strikes me as a last resort, *after* you have given teaching writing EFFECTIVELY an honest try; an honest try is the same amount of time that a good teacher would use, ten minutes a day (not killing yourself!) for at least a school year and possibly two.

I have posted a short note earlier in this thread giving a quick idea of how I really can remediate handwriting with simple materials — plus those three dirty little four-letter words, hard work and time. If you are interested in the longer note, send me a message (request either just the handwriting, or the whole tutoring note set) at [email protected]
No strings attached; just re-sending my previous how-to posts.