Organization and following through with instructions (Long)

It isn’t working anymore…perhaps they can check her for depression to get her out of her apathy so she cares about what is going on and wants to take responsiblity for her life… This has been the hardest thing for me to teach my sons..I can’t follow them around for the rest of their life, they have to learn to take responsibility…

I feel for you…I have 4 kids who are all ADD, my boys are the type who lose things not only in their backpack but all over creation, things like car keys, money, wallets… expensive calculators, textbooks…I have replaced these items and then they turn up…in the locker or office…

My daughters are organized and timely ADDer’s but my boys are inattentive space cadets…:oops: Things are getting better for my boys but I have spent many a day pullilng my hair out too! Please feel free to e-mail me if you need a place to vent…

I’d have to assume she doesn’t want to turn those assignments in. What makes me say that the most is that you say she actually hides some of her completed work. Losing work can be accidental and a product of ADD/disorganization. Hiding work is not accidental and is a product of something besides disorganization.

As she says, ” I don’t know” to other questions about homework, it’s likely if you ask her why she hides some of her assignments that she’d say “I don’t know” again. What did she say when you asked her that?

By hiding assignments, she’s making a statement but the trick would be to figure out exactly what statement she’s trying to make. my best guess would be the hiding is an acting out of resentment she has about school. Many kids her age resent school. Some even outright hate school.

In short, I’m saying that the assignments not turned in are a symptom of a problem but not the problem itself. Other posters are suggesting depression - has she seen a psychologist? Could she?

Or maybe she needs a different kind of school that the one she’s in.

With students in high school who need support with their school work, they can come to resent that they need support. High school can make many students, perhaps especially those with learning differences, feel inadequate. And it makes them feel inadequate at a time in their lives when they’re already doubting themselves and trying to figure out who exactly they are.

Good luck.

What would happen if you stepped back a bit? It seems counter intuitive when you have an ADD child who is not turning in assignments, but for us, so far this year, it’s working.

I have a son who is in the 8th grade and also has ADD. In previous school years, our nightly ritual was to go over homework assignments and then I’d send him off to do them, frequently checking on him. I’d also help him do the assignments he couldn’t complete on his own and help him to revise homework papers that were incorrect or incomplete. Frequently, he would not turn in the assignments and it got to the point where I’d e-mail the teachers and tell them the asisgnments were complete and could they please collect the overdue assignments from him.

This routine was stressful for me and also him and the rest of our family.
In fact, at one point, my son told me that all I cared about was that he did well in school. I didn’t care about him. That comment really made me stop and think and re-evaluate what I was doing

This year, I decided to step back and take a much less active role in his homework. Now, all I do is check with him to see what he has for homework and I make sure that he has quiet time to do it. Also, we had a talk about how homework is his responsibility. If he needs help with it to ask either me or his dad and we will be glad to help. I’m not on top of him anymore to get things done. But I made it clear that if I start getting calls from teachers or reports of missing assignments, we’d have to go back to the old system.

The school year is young, but so far, he is doing his assignments and he’s turning them in. I did get one call from a teacher telling me that his homework was not being completed to her expectations. I relayed the message to him and looked over his next assignment and we talked about how he could improve the assignment. Then, I left it to him to revise the assignment, and guess what? He did! And also, he is coming to us for help when he doesn’t understand assignments. He doesn’t ignore them. Also, I’m finding that he is not leaving assignments in his locker at school.

I like our new system and am hoping he will keep doing what he needs to do. Our household is much more pleasant and less stressful.

LJ

:shock:

I was looking here about this very same subject. I have a ds, 10th grade and he’s failing 4 out of six of his courses because he cannot seem to get his homework from school, to home, back to school and to the teacher. UGH!!!! He is not on meds yet but we are going to take him next week to start. he had been homeschooled so we never had a reason to medicate but I really see no alternative now. I am sorry that you are going through this but I am happy to see I am not alone.

Yup, it happens here, too. Last weekend my daughter lost her binder. Unfortunately it was the weekend before trimester final exams!! She stayed home for the whole weekend - I normally do not penalize her social life, which is very modest, for her school work. The binder turned up in her English class-she left there.
We replace what we can and have backups and spares if we can. But what you are describing is more than ADD. I, too, would want to have a look at depression. If it is taking that much support from you and so little initiated from her-something else is happening. What about negativity on her part? Is she constantly in a negative pattern? Is there a need for some cognitive coaching in this area?

The only other suggestion I have is to go digital. have her email her work to her teachers from home as she finishes it.

keep us posted
mmm

This discussion hits home! I’m reading through it and see a lot of what we’re going through right now.

My son was diagnosed with ADHD in 1st grade. He is now in 6th grade and about to finish his first semester in high school. He is in a gifted program with about 125 other middle school kids who have gone on to an accelerated middle school program where they are also taking high school classes.

Each and every school year, we go through the same thing. Just when I think life is good and all is well, a teacher will contact me and tell me he is in danger of flunking.

Flunking? He’s got an IQ of 159 for crying out loud. In third grade he was reading at the 11th grade level.

We’ve gone through trying out different meds and finally got it all straightened out. Each time this happens (danger of flunking) we check to make sure the meds are ok and he hasn’t had such a big growth spurt that it would have thrown him out of kilter.

Each time, we discuss what’s going on, how important it is to keep up with school work, and he agrees he’ll try harder.

Then it happens again.

I’ve tried everything — taking away privileges, screaming at him until I could swear my vocal cords are bloody, acting like it’s no big deal and we’ll just try harder next time, taking him to the seedy part of town so he can see winos lying in doorways and telling him they probably didn’t finish their homework either (cruel, yes), stern talks with his grandfather (whom he idolizes) who taught school for 34 years, riding his butt constantly from the time he gets home from school until the time he goes to bed, sitting with him and helping with every assignment, sitting him down to work on his assignments alone and checking on him once in a while…

EVERYTHING!!!

When they notified us he was accepted into this program, we went to orientation and learned all about it, then he went to the school to shadow a student for a full day to see what it was like. We discussed how much work it would be and how he had to keep up. I reminded him of all the crap we have gone through each year with not turning stuff in and told him we can’t have any more of that. If he was going to commit to this program, he had to do the work otherwise they would put a child in his spot who promised to get things done.

And here we are, once again, with incomplete work and teachers calling me to let me know he’s not getting things done.

I’ll ask him if he has any homework and he’ll tell me no. Silly me — I’ll believe him and decide not to go through the backpack because he needs to learn some responsibility and not feel like I’m second-guessing him. Then right before bedtime (or even the next morning) he’ll suddenly remember he has an assignment. Or he doesn’t remember at all and later I’ll find blank worksheets in his backpack or get another phone call.

As for taking away privileges like mentioned here on this thread, I take them away too but we’re to the point now where he doesn’t really have any left. And he doesn’t care.

I have no idea what else to try. I’ve been searching online tonight to try adn find tips on getting him organized. The school gives out a spiral agenda for them to write assignments in and he usually doesn’t write them.

We’ve tried emailing assignments from the teacher to me, but when he finishes them he doesn’t turn them in.

This is such an emotional roller coaster. I feel like I have no time for myself! Is that selfish? Every waking moment is devoted to steering him in the right direction. How in the world is he going to make it through college? Keep a job? Stay married?

Punishment and thinking that your child is doing this “on purpose” is not going to help here. He’s not, believe me. I know its frustrating. I have two kids like this. One takes meds, one doesn’t, but both have needed lots of parental intervention. You might try behavior mod — rewards for doing what he should. That can help, but you probably should consult a professional about it. You definitely should look into hiring an ADHD coach, unless you are pretty organized yourself. ADHD kids can learn organizational strategies but they generally can’t think them up on their own. It sounds to me like this is what is going on with your son. He knows he has to do these things but he really has no clue how to consistently accomplish them. he can be taught, but even when ADHD kids are taught a strategy, it takes constant repetition and reinforcement to turn it into a habit. But it can happen. An ADHD coach can help your son develop routines that he can follow religiously every single day until they become ingrained. The other thing that is really crucial is that you establish a routine at home that never varies. For example, you might say “dinner at 6:00, homework at 7:00, sitting at the kitchen table with a parent nearby to make sure you are sticking with it.” Look in his backpack every day and eventually make it a routine that HE looks in his backpack everyday at homework time. If he has an assignment book, check it everyday. Tell him that if there is no homework in a particular subject he has to write that down. See if you can’t get a teacher to sign off on his assignment book. Consider getting him a PDA to record assignments if finding the assignment book in the backpack and having time to record assignments is a problem. A PDA will fit in his pocket and be right there. You could also try a mini digital tape recorder that he could simply speak his assignments into. Then make sure you both listen to it together at the same time everyday. Make a routine of digging out all the balled up paper in his backpack and deciding whether it can be discarded or, if it must be kept, where it should go. If you are a working parent, call him up at a set time every day after school and ask him what he has for homework. Some kids forget by time they actually have to sit down and do the work and calling can help them remember. Give him a plastic folder in which all completed homework goes and into which every single piece of paper he gets at school should go. Go through that folder every night without fail. Ask what tests he has coming up and help him make a plan for when he will study and how. Ask about long-term papers and projects and help him devise a plan for getting them done. Be very specific. By x date, i will have finished half of my outline. By y date I will have written three pages, etc. As time goes on and these things become a habit, slowly and gently shift the responsibility onto him to do these things. This is not a quick process. It may take years, but it will happen. Don’t give up hope!

I too, have the problem of my 11yr.old ADHD son handing in homework. The teachers informed me, that was the only reason he was failing.
I made sure the homework was done every night, but as my son’s child psychologist says “you can’t make him hand it in”. Sometimes he does actually forget, but at other times it may be on purpose. He gave me something to think about, “if your child is getting failing grades now, what happens if they hand in an assignment and THAT gets a bad grade?” “How does that make your child feel? Doesn’t it reinforce the fact that even if they do their work, they still can’t do it right?” I am also still working on this, but I have been advised to give my son pep talks, so to speak, and to praise his hard work, even if it may not seem the best work. Work on one issue at a time. Good luck!

Him8nc—A unmotivated sixth grader with ADHD placed in an elite group that takes high school level classes? That sounds like the worst idea in the world, regardless of his IQ, and regardless of whether he originally wanted to do it. And it sounds like you’re riding him mercilessly. I’m guessing you and your hubby are high achievers yourselves and have a hard time dealing with the fact that he’s not. I just don’t understand the need to push and push kids this way. If he’s not self motivated, none of the measures you mention will motivate him—you’ll just alienate him from school entirely, and from yourself. I’ve been there. My gifted son, child of high-achieving parents, totally lost interest in school in 7th grade and nothing, from punishments to bribery, worked—they just made him withdraw from us. He finally started to pull himself together junior year in high school, totally on his own. Sure, his GPA was damaged from the “bad” years, and the college he got into wasn’t Ivy League, but he’s doing fine and won’t be sleeping in doorways! Relax before you drive your kid nuts.

[quote=”Anonymous”]Him8nc—A unmotivated sixth grader with ADHD placed in an elite group that takes high school level classes? That sounds like the worst idea in the world, regardless of his IQ, and regardless of whether he originally wanted to do it. And it sounds like you’re riding him mercilessly. I’m guessing you and your hubby are high achievers yourselves and have a hard time dealing with the fact that he’s not. I just don’t understand the need to push and push kids this way. If he’s not self motivated, none of the measures you mention will motivate him—you’ll just alienate him from school entirely, and from yourself. I’ve been there. My gifted son, child of high-achieving parents, totally lost interest in school in 7th grade and nothing, from punishments to bribery, worked—they just made him withdraw from us. He finally started to pull himself together junior year in high school, totally on his own. Sure, his GPA was damaged from the “bad” years, and the college he got into wasn’t Ivy League, but he’s doing fine and won’t be sleeping in doorways! Relax before you drive your kid nuts.[/quote]

Have you considered the possibility that you (and your son) just got incredibly lucky? Most kids aren’t going to “just pull themselves together” after five years of totally losing interest in school and achievement. You should check the gt/ld section in the LD in Depth part of this site to see what the research shows about teaching children who are gifted and have LD or ADHD. There is overwhelming evidence that the most important factor in the success of these children is that they are sufficiently challenged. These kids need to be stimulated to keep going. I don’t this parent is riding her child too hard. She is merely asking for help in helping her child to become more organized so that he can use the great mind God gave him. He isn’t going to figure this out on his own. He’s got to be taught by someone. The schools just don’t do this stuff right. Its up to parents. Don’t pick on the ones who care enough to help their children to get out of their ADHD fog and show them how smart they really are and how successful they can be. As the public service announcement goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. There is no such thing as benign neglect when it comes to our children’s education.

An interesting discussion. I have also struggled with the difference between what my sons KNOW versus how they PERFORM. My oldest was very motivated by grades, so he was easy to work with (even though the was the most “ADHD”-ish of the three). If he got bad grades, he did whatever was necessary to fix it. He was up late doing homework many nights, but he got it done, and got good grades. Partly I think it was because we homeschooled him for four years in elementary school, and he asked us to go back to middle school in a standard environment. So he WANTED to be there. My second, on the other hand, could care less about grades. We have had to balance encouragement, limit setting, and letting him see the natural consequences of his actions. He is finally beginning to decide that it matters to him whether he gets credit for a course or not. So he is getting more organized and more motivated (he is 15). And the third is only 8, and could care less about being organized or turning in assignments or pleasing the teacher at all. All three have high IQ’s, but the first and the last are both clearly gifted in mathematics. All read really well for their ages. None found school particularly motivating in their early years.

I have learned to differentiate between the goals of education (to learn information and skills essential to survival) and the supposed measurement of education (tests and grades). Many kids are accomplishing the former in a big way, but it doesn’t show in the grades. Does this mean they aren’t learning? Or does it mean that what they are learning isn’t what is being measured? The fact that children who understand and can accomplish the skills being taught are failed for not turning in work is a disconnect between learning and performance. Since schools test performance almost exclusively, and put a huge emphasis on compliance and organization, kids who are very bright but disorganized are at a disadvantage, particularly if the idea of grades is not particularly motivating.

So I guess we decided to focus on issues of motivation. Part of our solution was to explore alternative educational options, including public alternative schools and homeschooling. There is truly no way to force a child to comply or become organized, but if they are in an environment that recognizes their skills and abilities, and is flexible enough to adapt to their “organizational challenges”, they will do better. Some of these kids will continue to struggle with completion of work until they find something that they want to do. With my second son, it was Japanese. He realized that he couldn’t succeed in Japanese without working, and he wanted to go to Japan next year. So he started busting his butt to learn it. From this, he gained a rewarding experience of working hard and accomplishing something. This has translated to harder work and more accomplishments in other areas, and better feelings. The biggest hump was Geometry - he finally decided to buckle down and do it, even though he was sort of “math phobic” - and lo and behold, he found he could do it fine! I had to sit with him the entire time at first, until he started to gain confidence, but now he is doing it on his own, except where there are questions.

So I don’t know exactly how to help you with your situation. But I do think it is imporant to recognize that with his intelligence level, a “standard school” environment may simply not meet his needs. He may be being asked to do what to him seems like meaningless, repetitive tasks that teach him nothing at all. Essentially, he may already have learned what he thinks he needs to know, and they just won’t move on! I guess I would talk to him and get a really good idea of what exactly is motivating and unmotivating to him about school. Maybe ask him what the ideal school would look like. Find out what subjects he likes, and if there is any subject he IS turning in his work on, find out why. While I agree that just allowing time to pass and hoping it gets better is not a good policy, it sounds like what you are doing is not working anyway, so perhaps it is time to relax a bit and try to gather up some more information, instead of continuing to hammer and hammer on that square peg and thinking that somehow it will get through the round hole if you hit it hard enough. There has to be another way to approach it, and you will only discover that if you can get away from insisting that he just “get with the program”, and start to find out what works and doesn’t work for him. He may not go to college, he may not even finish high school, but he may be successful in some other way. Or perhaps he would like to finish school early and start at community college? Or maybe move to an alternative school where he has more to say about what projects he is involved with? He may come up with things none of us can think of, smart as he is.

The problem may not be that he isn’t learning. It may be more that the school system doesn’t work for him. Don’t feel bad - it didn’t work for Einstein, Edison, Churchill, and a lot of brilliant people, either (so I hear). The issue seems to be less about education and more about motivation. If you find out what motivates him and start to build on it, you may get a lot further.

Or I may be totally off base - who knows? Hope this at least gets the creative juices flowing. Don’t give up! You will find a way!

–— Steve

“I’ve tried everything — taking away privileges, screaming at him until I could swear my vocal cords are bloody, acting like it’s no big deal and we’ll just try harder next time, taking him to the seedy part of town so he can see winos lying in doorways and telling him they probably didn’t finish their homework either (cruel, yes), stern talks with his grandfather (whom he idolizes) who taught school for 34 years, riding his butt constantly from the time he gets home from school until the time he goes to bed, sitting with him and helping with every assignment, sitting him down to work on his assignments alone and checking on him once in a while…”
“Every waking moment is devoted to steering him in the right direction. ”

And this isn’t riding your kid too hard? It’s one thing to encourage, guide and assist your child in maximizing his potential. This mom is trying to climb inside his brain and run his life. It can’t be done, and it won’t work. And he’ll run for the hills as soon as he can get out of the house. it doesn’t matter if he has ADHD, LD’s or not. He’s just a kid. Let him breathe. What’s the worst that can happen if he drops out of the elite group and muddles along as an average student? He might actually be happy!

[quote=”Anonymous”]”What’s the worst that can happen if he drops out of the elite group and muddles along as an average student? He might actually be happy![/quote]

Again, go read up on gt/ld issues. The research does not back you on this point. These kids do not become more happy when less challenged. Instead, they become more unhappy, more bored and more disengaged. That is the unfortunate truth. A recent article in the Roeper review discusses gifted underachievers who underachieve as a point of honor. They know that they should be challenged and interested at school and when they don’ get that need met, they offer a protest by putting in as little effort as possible. Steve is right though, and you are too, in a way— in the end parents cannot “make” their child motivated to learn. What they can do, however, is make sure their children are given the strategies and opportunities to use the abilities they possess. The parent who asked for advice had the right idea but the wrong methods. The answer isn’t to let the child alone but to change the methods to those that are more supportive and more successful. A corollary to that answer may be for the parent to come to grips with the fact that all we can do is offer the support. It is up to the child to make use of it. If its never offered, however, it will never be there for the child to use. Leaving these kids alone leaves them in the lurch.

I’d LOVE to see that article! Any possibility of providing a link or a reference?

You can try this website: http://www.roeperreview.org/. The current issue is posted there, but the article is from the fall issue. Unfortunately, they’ve only got back issues available through volume 24 and this was in volume 26.

Thanks for the link. Patience is a virtue - I guess I’ll have to wait a bit until they catch up!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cdh/20040208/lo_cdh/whatcanhappentoboredgiftedstudents

Thanks to those who posted helpful info and links.

And to the “Guest” that responded, why are you even here on this message board? People come here to post their questions, ask for help, and help each other, all without being judged or raked over the coals.

But here you are, on your high horse, judging the rest of us.

No, I’m not an over-achiever. I just want what’s best for my child.

He was miserable in regular school. Keeping him challenged is very important.

No, I’m not riding him too hard. I’m sure other parents on this forum know how I feel. Dealing with ADHD is a constant struggle and, after years of dealing with it, sometimes it feels like the walls are caving in.

So thank you, “Guest,” for kicking me when I was already down.

him8nc, please ignore the board terrorists who have been posting here. Please don’t take it personally. The board terrorists aren’t worth responding to.

Sorry you’re feeling down.

8) the person who made negative judgements about you, obviously mistook everything you said. I saw you as a caring parent trying to find some good advice about your son’s dilema. So just shake his little comment off. My son is in 6th grade now and I am freaking out about him going into Jr high. Especially, regarding the detentions they give out for everything. He is constantly in trouble now for disruptive behavior, forgetting/losing homework(even when completed). I think its good that you have high expectations for your son, despite his diagnosis. we just are trying to learn what motivates them. I wish there were more alternative public schools that accomodates different ways of learning, and focuses more on each students strengths instead of weaknesses. Some way to discover what they are good at and groom them for adulthood. well, sorry I dont have any advice for your frustration, but I think you are doing everything you can. Let me know if you find what works before my son starts nexy year. I am praying for all our children to find their way. Good luck
Nancy

Wow! That last link was informative. I have a smart 2nd grader that I am worried about. She may be gifted or just “close” who knows now but I can already see that she is “different” and I know that might be tough in middle school and high school where kids are not “cool” if they are smart. America is so weird that way. Why should a child feel the need to strive for mediocrity? It makes me wish that I could get her involved with “smart” kids early. Terry

I disagree, having a nonLD 5th grader who is very bright…kids do look up to the smart kids, even in elementary school and certainly in middle school and high school there is a core group of very very bright high-achieving kids; the kids who have trouble I think are the bright kids with poor social skills and trouble organizing the mountain of work that comes with being bright and in honors classes.