OCN again (hey it rhymes!)

Thanks for sharing, Des. I had the same successful experience.

Please let us know how your students respond when you reach [i]using the fact imagery cards to visualize and verbalize addition/subtraction facts[/i]. Can your students memorize the facts just by doing this part, or is that not the intention of this part?

I didn’t even attempt to teach the multiplication facts at that stage, as she is at the addition stage on the math ladder. I did take this as a sign that she is able to see the patterns as she once did not. I think the level of just seeing and counting on the number line are for that— namely, the ability to create a number line in your head and two to start seeing patterns in numbers. I would not be surprised if they go back to that in teaching multiplication. If you think about it multiplication IS skip counting.
I suppose this is why multiplication by 2s is so easy (not only is it easy to add two numbers together, but you can also skip count by 2s pretty easily) and multiplication by 8s, say, is not.

In introducing adding and subtracting (how far *I* am in the book), she has so far, introduced ‘families’ using blocks; used the fact cards as a whole ie 1+3=4 and then had the student write that in the air; had them demonstate the math families using blocks and imagery fo the facts; used the blocks and number line together; counted on the number line; and then used the imagery number line. Sure sounds like overkill? But I would guess with an older student like mine, I am only going to go thru this a few times so she sees this. But I’ll bet when we get to multiplication it will be slower. BTW, I am still seeing my student excited about learning about these things even on such a basic level. I am guessing that she missed really understanding them at the time. She was really interested about how she could put the blocks in either hand, made the commutative axiom (3+4=4+3) real.

After each step Nanci Bell lists the skills to be gained. I am watching this and sort of following that. Can my student do each of these?

—des

Just curious….for OCN, did you purchase the entire set or just get the manual and add from other sources?

I just bought the manual and a set of the unifix blocks. I made everything, even a number line. I would recommend the number line though, curiously though they talk about a plastic no. line in the book, they sell a cardboard one. My cardboard one has some limitations, but it is working ok. I made the number spaces the size of the blocks, but when you put a whole bunch on it doesn’t work so well. I think the materials might be time consuming for some people, but I find that I can do most of them while watching tv or something.

Also I made all the stuff for V/V (except the book, and now I have even written some of my own short paragraphs, had to get Halloween in there!
LiPs the same, I am ordering the letter tiles.

—des

Thanks for letting me know Des. I’ve decided to go ahead and order OCN, but I figured that before I go and just purchase the manual, I want to make sure I could do it without the entire kit….or what would be completely necessary.

I know with S/S I purchased the book and workbooks first and then later I decided to get the entire kit (which is awesome and I wish I would have bought it all in the first place…now I have two manuals! :roll: )

By the way, not to change the subject, but I’ve been doing about 45 minutes of S/S daily with my son and I think he’s making progress. (In addition we do Sequential Spelling and Fisher’s Speed Drills). My husband had my son read to him out of a relatively difficult book last night and he said he noticed a big improvement.

One quick S/S question I have for you is how much air writing do you have kids do? For example, if they can easily read (and reread) the orthographic patterns you’re covering do you still have them air write and visualize every single one? When we first started (with the spiral bound cards from the kit), I had my son practice visualizing practically every single one. But now he seems to be visualizing more and some of this actually seems to be getting stored in memory….so what I’ve been doing is having him quickly go through the cards. Whenever he seems to have difficulty that’s when we stop and work on visualization. Then we read re-read and go through each set numerous times until he has them recognized 100%. Does that sound like a good approach?

Sorry to change the topic here!!!! On another note, I have noticed we spend way too little time on his math so I desperately need to get OCN. It really never ends!!!!

No, you do not need the kit, but I’d recommend getting the plastic unifix numberline and some unifix cubes. I got my flashcards with answers from Trend Enterprises as well as the triangle cards.

Unifix things can be ordered from:

http://www.didaxinc.com/

and Trend:

http://www.trendenterprises.com/home.cfm

Type in the product on both sites and you will get multiple listings. I can’t remember for sure if the plastic numberline is at Didax, because I bought mine from LMB. But I think it is there but just named differently.

The OCN kit apparently is designed for someone working with a LOT of kids because there are 30 of most items.

Janis

Yes, LiPs is the only thing that comes in a clinical kit, though it has been out the longest as well.

You know what I wish this website had was both a buyer’s club and for sell/looking to buy section. Not for pro dealers, but maybe say someone is looking for something or has something they want to sell…
And also we could do something like all get together and buy, say, the OCN kit and divide up the pieces.

—des

Is it okay to do S/S and OCN together? Or would you go through it following S/S? (or V/V? Isn’t it recommended to go through V/V first and then do OCN? Is that necessary?).

I know the clinic does them seperately. But in a home or tutoring situation, would it work to do them at the same time. Say 30-40 minutes of S/S and then 30-40 minutes of OCN?

I really need to take the training (S/S) because I seem to come up with so many questions. Actually I think it’s almost better to try using these programs first so when you take the training you know what questions to ask!

[quote=”Laura in CA”]Is it okay to do S/S and OCN together? Or would you go through it following S/S? (or V/V? Isn’t it recommended to go through V/V first and then do OCN? Is that necessary?).

>I know the clinic does them seperately. But in a home or tutoring situation, would it work to do them at the same time. Say 30-40 minutes of S/S and then 30-40 minutes of OCN?

I really see no reason why not either. Now V/V is another thing. They do need some V/V to do OCN. If you look on the small print on the OCN manual it says V/V for math. They really need to develop some basic visualizing skills to do OCN. I don’t know if you had a kid who was quite good at visualizing in reading. Poor reading comprehension and low math skills often go together, but they don’t *always* go together. Did they address this in the training anyone?

>I really need to take the training (S/S) because I seem to come up with so many questions. Actually I think it’s almost better to try using these programs first so when you take the training you know what questions to ask![/quote]

Well I could really use LiPS training, as I said it is kind of netless… But I suppose there might be something to this. And I suppose even with LiPS, boy will I have the questions!!

—des

Hmmm, I took V/V and OCN training this past summer. I loved the V/V training. The OCN training was only one day, so they barely skim the surface of the program. I definitely enjoyed going, but the V/V training was more essential, IMO.

But yes, you need to do through sentence by sentence in V/V before going on into OCN. I see no reason not to do SS and OCN within the same day, however, after you have done some V/V. But let me warn you, it can take a LONG time to get through V/V doing it right. I think LMB recommended 80 hours of V/V for my child. So if we did 2 hours of it a week, it would take exactly one school year for us to complete it.

As far as the kits go, OCN does have 30 of a lot of items. But SS is made up mostly of word cards, single copy, so it is not like buying OCN. I do feel I need the SS kit and am waiting to try and buy one second hand. Des, even though there is not a buy and sell board here, I was able to sell two extra Phono-Graphix manuals by just mentioning here and on one other group. People emailed me and I sold them.

One more week before my SS training! :D

Janis

Hi,

Well my idea is so that I would NOT have to buy all that and pay for it first. :-)

—des

What happens is with LMB, you get a manual at the training and end up with a second one when you buy the kit. I had the same thing happen with Phono-Graphix, I got a second kit when we offered the training at my child’s school. Another teacher had already bought one to use before the training as well, so I sold her second kit for her.

I had heard that you could order the kits without the manuals, but I just discovered they only give about a $20 discount to remove the manual. And I think they can be sold for more than that either here or on ebay.

Janis

As for LMB, you can get something off the training if you already have the manual (course you have to bring it with). I think it is $20 off for V/V, SS and OCN and $50 off of LiPS.

—des

I’ve been reading with interest all of the threads on the above programs. I was wondering, are these research based programs?

Chuck

Quite extensive. There are references to LiPS on Charles Schwabb page, anyone got that URL?

Also on their own page: http://www.lblp.com/research/research.html

You could also prolly do a google search reading research + LiPS (say).
Might also have to look under ADD the old name of the program. Both names are a bit confusing for google research purposes, just like the OG based Language! Yikes. :-)

Not sure how much research is on OCN though.

—des

Chuck,

There are a couple of good articles on this site that list Lindamood Bell as appropriate programs as well:

http://www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/reading/reading_approaches.html

http://www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/reading/mssl_methods.html

Janis

I’ve been lurking for some time - trying to pick up everything I can about Math-U-See and OCN. I teach resource at the elementary level. I currently use Saxon but find that my kids could use more concrete instruction. I’m torn between OCN and MUC - any recommendations? Also, does the OCN Math TM cover all functional levels?

Thanks,

Chuck
[email protected]

MUS would be more appropriate if you are actually teaching the complete math class (the whole curriculum) for a group of children. OCN is more of a remedial program to teach all the major concepts. It is not a stand-alone, complete math program. Topics in OCN include: Imaging Numerals, Imaging the Number line, addition family facts, word problems, subtraction family facts, place value, jumping, carry over and borrow back, multiplication, division, decimals, fractions.

I like Saxon, but it is also better in a regular classroom setting. It is hard to pull out a particular topic to work on in Saxon the way the spiral curriculum is designed. OCN is far more practical if one is tutoring a child in math concepts and not teaching the full curriculum.

Janis

I agree with everything Janis said (hmm maybe we are the same person :-)), but I would recommend getting OCN as a reference. It introduces a whole different way of looking at the problem of poor math skills and is as much a philosophy, imo, as a teaching method. I think that many of the best math teachers, perhaps our own victoriah for instance, really use a lot of this type of thing instinctively. But not all of us have great math visualization skills. They are worth boning up on.

—des

Thanks Des and Janis.

You’re very welcome, Chuck.

(And great advice, des. I agree, both OCN and MUS would be best!!!)

Janis