Spelling (happy, happy)

This is great, Lil. We have seen major improvements in spelling using AVKO. My son can actually learn spelling lists now (we are doing school and AVKO together now, much to his dispair). And some of the strategies the PG folks teach actually work. Before AVKO, they just didn’t. He didn’t have enough of a memory for visual patterns.

Beth

I was going to buy AVKO at the beginning of the summer, but my son and I were both worn out and needed a break. While we were taking one, my mother became medically needy (she lives alone) and has taken up a LOT of my time lately.

But the PG worked beautifully. I’m VERY interested in the AVKO, though. It looks like a great program. I’m glad you are having success with it. :-)

Lil

Lil,

It is easy to do and fast—less than 10 minutes a day. I have been able to keep it up about 5 days a week, even with school. At first he had a lot of trouble with it, but now he gets most of the words right. It is a big ego boost to him to spelling “misunderstanding” right on the first try.

I think it helps build basic visual sense of word patterns. If your son is doing great with PG techniques, you may not need it. But PG techniques were not enough for my son. He just had no way of knowing which pattern was right.

I think it also may help fill in the gap for my son in spelling. He is doing OK now with spelling at school but he has years of spelling he didn’t get.

Beth

Beth, Another parent got the school to use AVKO spelling. My child will be starting soon, have you noticed it helping with reading compound words? Also was it an easy program to follow as the assistant will probably be doing the program with the kids. It looks like I won’t get spelling words home to study, and was wondering how will I know how things are going at school before I get a test back. Thanks

With AVKO, they don’t actually study spelling words, at least the way it is intended. What the program does is give kids a list of words a day which have a limited set of patterns to them. If they get it wrong, you show them the correct spelling and they correct it. For the aide to implement it correctly, she would need to put the correct spelling on the board after each word.

This approach makes it a bit difficult to “grade” spelling in a conventional sense. So I have read of teachers using it differently—making the words into an assigned list.

You could always buy the program and do it at home as well.

I have seen his ability to read improve too. AVKO emphases the parts to words—you have the same root word for several days and just add endings like ed, ing, s to them. They also use a lot of compound words. For example, today my son had pipes and bagpipes.

Beth

Beth,
I’m thinking the pattern repetition probably helps with eventual recognition (and possibly even, automatic recognition). Also, maybe it even helps visualization. Have you noticed this?

Thanks for the explanation, Beth. It sounds perfect for my son - but he’s doing so well with spelling right now, I won’t torture him by making him do even more! :-)

He’s getting ready to start IM, too, and wants to play basketball and take piano lessons. We need more hours in a day.

Lil

Lil,

IM really helped my son so I am hoping that you get the same kind of results.

And I agree there is no use in using AVKO with your son. It is very painless but so are many things but when you add them up, the time they take becomes difficult. I feel like you have to target the areas where you can make the most gains with the least effort, especially as they get older. And my son’s spelling is still pretty horrible.
We have a long ways to go. My goal is to get him good enough to use spell check.

Beth

Hi Beth,

My son couldn’t spell well enough to use a spell checker at the end of school last year, either. We didn’t touch spelling over the summer. That’s one of the reasons I’m so impressed by his newfound spelling abililty this year.

If I hadn’t already decided to do IM, and if his executive functions were a little better, I probably wouldn’t be doing it right now - because he suddenly IS doing so well. But this IM clinician is an OT who is experienced in SID, too. My son has some sensory issues, but I’ve never had anyone work with him for those. Maybe she can give me some pointers in that realm as well.

My son was 11 a week ago. Things seem to be magically falling into place for him right now.

Lil

I think our kids go through periods where things do come together. We see periods of growth and then stagnation with our son. IM was one therapy that got us out of one of those stagnating periods.

I have heard of maturity helping but usually it has been about 13 instead of 11. Whatever it is, I hope it continues!!!

I am hoping that the greater neurological organization I see in my son will make our PG intensive in December have a major impact on him. He is doing amazingly well, compared to a couple years ago, but he still doesn’t decode new words as well as he should. And if PG helps with spelling too, all the better!!!

Beth

what are they? where are they?
I was very excited to read about the improved spelling from these programs. I am looking for things to help my ds.
Anything you could provide me with would be greatly appreciated!
thanks
stacy

AVKO is the name of a spelling program. I don’t have the web site but try doing a search. It is easy to use but requires about a third-fourth grade reading level

PG is phonographix. It is a reading program that also addresses spelling. It requires more sense of visual patterns than AVKO. It can teach nonreaders.

Beth

At my son’s new school, which a strict OrtonGillingham methodology, they teach reading, writing and spelling as one curriculum. They cite research literature indicating that when the 3 are taught together it really works. Something I hadn’t realized.

PS, when my son did LMB seeing stars we saw an improvement in spelling ( the visualization techniques helped I think) but it didn’t stick like the improvement in his decoding did.

The website for Sequential Spelling is http://www.avko.org . Sequential Spelling helps develop visual sensitivity to patterns in words — a spelling subskill that other spelling programs always seem to take for granted.

Children who have a great deal of difficulty spelling often don’t visualize words. A good exercise for these children is “reverse spelling”. You spell a word orally, and the child has to tell you what the word is. It’s a good idea to start with simple 3-letter words, because you may be surprised by how much difficulty a child has with this exercise.

The Orton-Gillingham approach of combining reading, writing and spelling isn’t necessarily optimal. Writing and spelling skills can take a lot more time to acquire than reading, so they can slow the process of learning to read to a snail’s pace. Some children need the combined approach of OG, but the majority are probably better off with Phono-Graphix, which focuses on teaching reading efficiently first. Once a child can read, other language arts areas such as vocabulary and grammar are automatically being developed while the more slowly-acquired skills of writing and spelling are being worked on. (PG does incorporate some writing and spelling to reinforce reading, but they are minimal compared to OG.)

I have seen students go from non-reading to a 5th grade level of decoding (perhaps 3rd or 4th grade level fluency) in a matter of weeks with PG. Some of them could spell at the same level. However, those who showed a huge discrepancy between reading and spelling levels have always needed years to become adequate spellers. In these cases, combining spelling with reading would only have slowed down their acquisition of reading skills.

Nancy

Karen,

I had some of the same thoughts as Nancy when I read your post. Has the OG speeded up his spelling or slowed down his reading? Or is he a much better speller than my son. My son can read at a late fourth grade level but spells at a late second grade level. Reading, as you know, has been a struggle but spelling is even worse. The lack of visualization of patterns, that Nancy speaks about, is clearly an issue for him.

Beth

Nancy,

I love your idea of “reverse” spelling!! I often make my son close his eyes and visualize the letters. I make him spell backwards and forwards. He can do it if there aren’t too many letters (beyond five) or syllables (can do two but not three).

Beth

Too soon to tell on any front. I’ll happily report back after our first conference in a few weeks.

I will tell you what I know about the school’s approach and their track record. They are known as one of the more successful LD schools for children with reading disabilities. The curriculum is based on “Preventing Academic Failure” which is OG, as I mentioned. The writing program in particular is well known, and used by mainstream schools. Their mission is to do intensive remediation for a few years and mainstream their students, which they do quite well.

He has 3 periods of language arts all with the same teacher, and the same group of kids. Reading, writing and spelling. Since my son has visual memory issues I will fall down with delight if he really does learn to spell - they swear he will! (Beth , he is the worst speller I have ever seen!!) But I have absolutely no doubt from talking with parents that he will read/write at a level equal to his potential by the time he is done there. I’ve seen the writing of their students and it is impressive. And their handwriting is to die for, which is interesting since the school doesn’t offer OT or other services. And yet they get this bunch of dyslexic kids (mostly boys) writing beautifully.

[Its an interesting place. They don’t believe in accomodation - they try to get their kids to function well enough to return to the mainstream with as few accomodations as possible. So while the kids do learn to keyboard for example they don’t give up on handwriting. ]

From what I can tell (based on what I’ve seen in the classroom and with his homework) the decoding work is straight forward OG. (They do air writing etc ala LMB) He comes home with word lists, phrases and now short stories that are designed to reinforce those lessons and build fluency. (reminds me of great leaps) I can’t tell how they teach spelling so I can’t comment one way or the other. I had done PG with him for a short time, and had him attend LMB. Frankly, I think all these methods come from the same place and are just flavors of a multisensory approach.

We are also doing VT outside of school to improve his visual memory.

They did a lot of “reverse spelling” at LMB when my ds did Seeing Stars there last year. It was amazing he could do it, since he has poor visual memory. But he could. Go figure.

Karen,

It sounds like a wonderful place. I have heard of the particular program too. It was one that our advocate recommended for our son, along with LMB.

I think the advantage you have is that he isn’t trying to keep up with a regular class right now. So if the reading slows down for awhile for the spelling to catch up, it really doesn’t matter. My son is in a regular class and so the fact he can read on grade level is important, even if his spelling is still pretty horrid. I don’t expect him to ever be good at spelling—I am just hoping he can use a spell check some day!!!!

BTW, how does your daughter like her new school? And how are you doing in suburbia?

Beth

Beth,

I think you are right on target with the “not keeping up with regular class”. I think this is one of the greatest relives the LD school provides that allows the resources to be effectively used in remediation (a lot less stress due to confusion and not keeping up with peers).

My son’s school is quite similar to Karen’s son school in their approach to accommodations- as little as possible- make the student as independent as possible so they can go back to public/private schools without a need for special support just accommodations.

Recently, the director made a statement that most students go through 3 phases: realizing that they do have a problem (their LD), than admitting that they do have a problem and finally accepting it and working towards developing academic and coping skills that would allow them to function between non-LD peers. She said once they accept such state (that schooling will be harder for them comparing with non-LD peers) they are usually making great progress and are soon ready to go back to non-LD environment. My son is somewhere between stage 2 and 3- he is openly admitting that certain tasks are hard for him- hopefully he will get to the acceptance phase soon…

My son did not really have any “spelling” class- spelling was part of “Let’s Read” class were they learn decoding and were actually tested through encoding (spelling). Now, he has “morphographs” which is learning decoding/spelling through morphology.

Ewa

Ewa, I just want to say that your advice and experience was very helpful for me this past year when it came time to make the decision to pull DS out of the mainstream. I hope we have as good an experience as you are in our school.

Beth,
So far so good with the suburb thing. We are adjusting. My husband likes to say that you are only as happy as your most miserable child. Now my most miserable child is actually happy, so that makes everyone feel good. : )

Ewa and Karen,

I envy you guys in a way, having the opportunity to have your kids in a LD school. My son is florishing though—working much harder than other kids but accepting it. He has got to the place you talk about Ewa where they are ready to mainstream.

But some of his skills aren’t there….spelling and grammar as well as decoding (his sight vocabulary is grade level). I think what you are doing will have a better chance of getting a kid there. But when we looked at private LD schools here this year, they were oriented to a kid much much more behind than my son.

So we keep marching and filling in the pieces the best we can.

And Karen, I love your husband’s assessment of life!!

Beth

Karen,
following Beth’s comment- I too like your husband’s comment - I already pass it to my friend. HOW TRUE!!!

Beth- academically my son was not that delayed before he enetered the school- but I think he was emetionally drained (not mentioning me!!!). So I am just so gratefull that he got the break from daily frustration and can gain academic skills without daily dose of confusion.

I do conratulate you on getting your son to this acceptance phase while still being in public school and now in private school. One of the reasons that I opted for private LD school was that I knew I needed it as much as my son…

Ewa

Hi Karen,
Wait till you have a teenager, then you know what unhappy really is! :-o Only kidding!!!!

Your son’s school does sound great. And Beth, I think your school sounds very good too. A friend of mine locally put her LD child in a small “regular” junior high school that’s through a temple. Her son is so much happier now and doing very well there. Although the program is not designed for LDs, he gets much more attention and she says he’s more motivated to do well.

I sort of envy all of you! We’re still holding out in the pubic school which is definitely not the best situation. My son is suppose to do an oral report today and he’s DREADING it!!!! My son is sort of like where Ewa’s had been. Emotionally having a difficult time. I would have spoken to the teacher about allowing my son to not do this report, but I keep thinking of Dr. Levine’s advice to have kids with language/speaking difficulties do as much public speaking as possible.

One of my friends moved her son to an LD class in the district (he had been in my son’s school, and in the same grade). She raves about the teacher and the classroom. She said they are working on 3rd and 4th grade materials and the teacher is wonderful. I keep thinking maybe I should look further into this. Although the nightmares I’ve heard of other public school speical ed. experiences worry me.

Laura,

My son did a report today too. Except he forgot to tell me so he didn’t even practice!! It was the oral part of a state report he did. I don’t think it went well. His teacher told me that she will remember that he doesn’t like to get up in front of people when grading it!! I told him you have to write things down in your planner. He is still working on those organizational skills!!

I would look into the class your friend’s child is in. I think everything is the teacher and if he is starting to feel overwhelmed then maybe it is time to look for a change.
Beth

Beth,
Apparently this is a Toastmasters oral report and they have to do these every month (and the top speakers get to speak in front of the whole school! To my son this would be pure torture!!! So he doesn’t want to do “great” on these things).

They do get to bring up notes which follow a particular organization which the teacher went over with them. It’s actually pretty structured.

I was nervous for my son, but he seemed kind of pleased with himself yesterday after school (which is somewhat unusual). He told me he thinks he did okay and will probably get a “C.” I told him he gets an “A” in my book because I know how hard he worked and even more impressively did the entire thing himself!

My son has trouble writing all his assignments in his binder minder too. One of my friends has an extremely bright son who is the same way. She had a plastic folder for him and wrote out a checklist of everything he was suppose to go over before leaving class. I don’t know how much it helped. She did this in 2nd grade and they’d go over it every day after school at pick up time.

Laura,

Well, the only way to get used to speaking in front of people is to do it. I remember how terrified my now husband was in college. He is a great public speaker now.

I am impressed that your son did it all by himself. My son is learning well but it is still with a lot of assistance from me.

My son writes whatever is written on the board down. The trouble comes when it is only oral. He didn’t know he had a social studies test last Friday. Guess there was a sub and she announced it but didn’t write it down.

Beth

I’ve heard that fear of public speaking is a very strong and common fear and that many people fear it more than many deadly things!!

—des

Beth and Des,
I remember having great difficulty with public speaking in college too. I once even left a room crying afterwards. You’d never know this today! I’m a very comfortable speaker now and have even done poetry readings. But I did explain these difficulties to my son hoping it would help him. I think getting old helps. I don’t worry so much what anyone thinks.

But yet, for him it’s different. I don’t know if it’s this way for your son, but with my son’s language difficulties it seems like he has to concentrate on words, remembering them, saying sentences fluently and grammatically correct. It’s not an obvious problem, he does a very good job compensating, but it’s something I can see and am aware of. Just like with reading, his speaking and writing aren’t as “automatic” as they could be. He does have good auditory memory which helps. But he also will do something like memorize it incorrectly and then he has an almost impossible time correcting himeself. It’s that whole “mental inflexibility” thing!

Anyhow, Beth, even though he did this entirely by himself it really was a VERY “elementary” speech. Kind of on the level of maybe 1st grade (it was about Sponge Bob!). But, as I’ve mentioned, the main thing is he did it himself (yeah!!!) and the whole idea is not the topic, but to get the idea of the structure that Toastmasters wants them to learn.