Lindamood-Bell

Candy,

Please don’t spend over $36K on LMB seeing stars and VV until your get him assessed for either CAPD or ADD. His reading scores show he is capable of being more accurate in his reading, there is an inconsistency in his performance. meaning he in on and then he is off, or in other words, tuned in or tuned out.

Believe me I have been down this road and this was the missing link…if his cognition and IQ is intact then it has to be his attention or auditory processing.

Patti,
My son’s score for Auditory Processing was at 10.2 grade level on the Woodcock-Johnson test he took in May. I think the Listing Program plus Pace helped in that area. He is making gains……lots of high scores and some real low score, like memory
Candy

Before you spend huge amts of money at LMB, take the time to have your child’s reading assessed using the Gray Oral Reading Test-4, that looks at reading passages, not just sentences and will give you an independent assessment outside LMB. Ask the school to do it, it doesn’t take long and gives info on reading accuracy(decoding), rate, and comprehension. Please don’t use grade levels to measure progress, they are not equivalent(the difference between grade 1 and 2, is different than between grade 11 and 12)…use standard scores. Watch out that he isn’t receiving the same test at LMB within a year(test-retest effect).

SAR,

LMB gives the GORT-4 as part of their battery. And they give an extensive test battery.

Candy,

How old is he? Can your tutor go to LMB training and do this with him at a lower rate per hour?

Janis

Hi Candy,
We just did the LMB testing last month and came very close to starting at their clinic. I personally like their intensive approach and think that 4 hours daily every day for however many weeks couldn’t help but make a good “jump start” in reading progress.

Good luck with your decision!

I think you would still need to get a CAPD evaluation to rule out auditory processing disorder(s).

The W-J test of auditory processing is measuring blending, segmenting, phoneme manipulation skills — all of which would have been developed by PACE. However, it does not assess underlying auditory processing disorder(s) which can make acquiring AP skills very slow and difficult. Auditory processing disorders can be adequately assessed only by an audiologist who specializes in this area. Even regular audiologists don’t have the training.

TLP is a great program, but it’s all in the form of classical music. If your son has the type of auditory processing disorder that affects his perception of speech, he may need FastForWord. FFW trains the ability to process the sounds of speech accurately and with speed.

Anyway, I would certainly get this eval before investing in 300 hours of LMB. At the very least you want to rule out auditory processing disorders.

The “auditory processing” term is very confusing because it is used in two completely different (but slightly related) ways. In reading, it refers to blending/segmenting/phoneme manipulation skills. However, in audiology it refers to perception of sound.

Nancy

p.s. I assume he has also been checked out by an occupational therapist for sensory integration disorder?

I would have to disagree about the need for APD testing and the implication that time spent in LMB could be a waste. LiPS has been around for a long time and it IS therapy for kids with auditory processing problems. It was originally named ADD: Auditory Discrimination in Depth but the name was eventually changed due to the obvious confusion when the term ADD came to mean something else.

But the fact remains, this child apparently has good phonemic awareness now. His mother states that he passed that part of the testing with a perfect score, so he does not even need LiPS at this point. If he has some general memory weakness which she indicated, then Seeing Stars is the perfect program to help him develop visual imagery for orthographic patterns and develop automaticity in reading and improvement in spelling. I’d be interested in seeing his CTOPP scores.

Lindamood Bell testing is exceptionally thorough and better than any other reading evaluations I have ever seen. The only thing I would try to adjust is not doing the therapy at the clinic if either a parent or a tutor can take the training and do it instead. I would not mortagae my house for reading therapy when there are other alternatives to having LMB therapy at the clinic at $69 per hour.

Janis

$69 an hour! That’s a deal!!!! It’s more expensive here in California.

Wow! Maybe I ought to run out to CA right now and sign up as a tutor, but then I might, eek, have to wear a dress and make up!!

Sorry for the OT thoughts. :-)

—des

Candy,

If you are the same one, I noticed his sporadic attention years ago and we talked in the deli about your placing him in the lab class. you were adamant about it not being ADD then and chose to do something else. Haven’t I have seen your son where I used to work? I am really serious about checking out his being ADD-Inattentive.

If he has made gains with Auditory processing and he isn’t making them in reading and his cognition and language are ok. then you must look into his attention.

If you arent’ the same Candy…then please accept my apologies and I will not speak of it again.

And I would definitely agree with Patti that attention issues would need to be addressed if applicable before Lindamood Bell therapy. 300 hours of V/V and 300 of Seeing Stars sounds like a HUGE amount of time to me. Getting attention under control might significantly reduce that amount of time.

Janis

Thank you all for your input!
Yes, Patti I am the same Candy that you met through SLC. I was not adament about my son not being ADD inattentive. I was just going by what some experts had told me.

Making the right decision is hard when you have a child that is severely Dyslexic. I had my son evaluated by experts in the field of Dyslexia. Regina Richards who is here in southern Califonia and Jill Stowell who runs a learning center here. Neither seem to think ADD inattive was an issue. Two psychologist also didn’t seem to think he had ADD inattive. The last psychologist seemed to think becuase his memory was a really problem he had a hard time holding on to things.

From LMB Center …….A dignostic evaluation indicates weakness in Concept Imagery-the ability to create a visual gestalt (whole) from oral or written language-which contributes to associated weakness in oral and written language comprehension and expression, problem solving, and following oral directions. Weakness in concept imagery causes the propensity to process parts of information rather than wholes (gestalts)

Jill and Regina are NOT qualified medical Dr’s to diagnose ADD. Jill didn’t think my kid was ADD either and when she saw the change in her she after we started meds she was amazed..

Part of his memory issues could be attributed to his attention and focus…From what I remember…. he was definitely on and off and his perfomance varied from day to day. Please listen to me Candy…take him into a Neuropsyche or to UCIrvine to get him testing..Even the Specialist physician at UCI didn’t think my daughter was ADD until he started testing…and he apologized when he confirmed what I had suspected.

Before you spend more money doing more of the same at anther learning center…please rule this out..

From LMB Center …….A dignostic evaluation indicates weakness in Concept Imagery- This is LMB jargon and not even a medical diagnosis…

the ability to create a visual gestalt (whole) from oral or written language-

I am an SLP…and kids who have problems with language organization from parts to wholes can also have ADD…

which contributes to associated weakness in oral and written language comprehension and expression,

If the kid is tuned out they aren’t getting what they need to make sense of the parts to create the whole..again seen in ADD

problem solving, …again…executive functioning…ADD

and following oral directions. you already ruled out CAPD..so what is left? exectutive functioning…ADD

Weakness in concept imagery causes the propensity to process parts of information rather than wholes (gestalts) this is all executive functioning-ADD.

I ruled out this last piece…and did the same remediation you did but the only difference is we did medication for the ADD..

Look at the results..My daughter is mainstreamed now…with minimal support besides a tutor for science and she still gets speech and language..

without meds….My daughter is severely dyslexic …yes she reads daily but she also gets books on tape from the blind and dyslexic for her expository text..as she has a hard time with comprehension of language..

Like I said…the pieces of the puzzle are pointing in the direction I have suspected for years…I just know how hard you have worked to help him all these years and I don’t want to see you spend more money and time on more of the same, when there may be another part of the puzzle that needs to be addressed in order to get over this last hurdle.

Think about it…Candy…rule it out before shelling out more money…

Patti,
I will look into having my son evaluated for ADD inattentive. Who at UCI did you use?

My son does have average IQ……he is now 12 years old

I am hoping if ADD is an issue combined with the LMB Center we should see some significant changes. MY DS has had lots of LiPS but barely touched on Seeing Stars and VV. He did score perfectly on the LiPs portion of the reading evel and LMB center. That shows me that the phonemic piece of the program worked for him.
Candy

Patti,
Do you know of anyone in the San Fernando Valley (or surrounding areas) who is good at diagnosing ADD-inattentiveness? Maybe UCLA?

I’ve suspected my son may have this problem as well, but have hesitated at looking further into it because I don’t know of anyone really qualified to make this kind of diagnosis. We’ve done the Conner’s twice now, but that doesn’t seem very reliable to me.

Is a full neuro-psych eval necessary for this?

Thanks! :-)

Laura,
It sounds like our sons have very much of the same things going on. I read your sons LMB scores…. that you posted. My sons scores were very similer to your sons.
Patti,
I have been apprehensive about going the med route. Really, I wanted to believe all the professionals that worked with my son. He seemed to always stay focused through all the testing situations that he was in.
Since this is the only testing we haven’t tried…….I am willing to go for it now!
Candy

As a child I was raised in a household of ADD-Inattentive people. I can spot kids like this a mile away…I will work with a kid and then I see them drift…I immediately ask them..”Where did you go a minute ago? What were you thinking about? They look at me with the funny look like I am a magician, and say. “How did you know? How did you know I was playing hockey down the street with my freinds. I can’t control it, it just happens.”

ADD-Inatttentive kids can focus one on one especially during the novelty of testing. and for the short term but in a classroom and when things are tedious they can zone and you don’t even know that is what they are doing. They are usually the well behaved kids, the sensitive dreamy, imaginative types. I am ADHD-co-morbid with inattention. I can hyperfocus on the short term, some people call me an overachiever and I can get things done promptly but ask me to do the laundry and put it away as soon as it is done my performance is inconsistent. :oops: My daughter is ADHD-inattentive as well but man is she organized.. she gets her assignments done lickety split..that is what is so screwy…she can keep me organized but she can zone out in class especially when she is tired from listening and her brother is the cram king….

I used to feel the same way about meds until I saw the miracle that happened with my daughter. She said…”Mom is this what it feels like to focus? I never knew what that meant and things are making a lot more sense now.” My heart just broke when I heard that becuase I had a very astute 3rd grade teacher tell me…”You know your daughter…she just isn’t focused, she is zoning out in class.”

Instead of listening to this teacher I put my foot down and got mad..I was part of the problem because I had similar issues…I told the teacher she is just tired from listening…By the time I got my head out of the sand she was 10 years old and failing in 5th grade

I rationalized…during 3rd grade that that teacher doesn’t know what she is talking about…Those teachers at school are all out to lunch, my kiddo isn’t ADD. I kept thinking about the Hyper part because she definitely wasn’t hyper but she was overwhelmed with everything and just gave up because she didn’t know where to start.

Up at UCLA I would talk to Lori Humphrey’s, she is a neuropsyche I believe.

At UCI—They have studies on ADD all the time…Dr. Marc Lerner is the one who diagnosed my daughter. My pediatrician was the one who finally figured out that our daughter was ADD besides having CAPD, and it was during the time we were shelling out $2500 a month for intensive remedation therapy. Our daughter was making gains but she would zone out during therapy and they had to constantly motivate her to stay on task.

My pediatrician knows a lot about ADD and referred my daughter to UCI he hasgreat respect for Dr. Lerner and his research. But what was really funny was that Dr. Lerner had his assistant call me to cancel the appointment that I had waited 4 months for. Dr. Lerner felt that her LD’s were solely attributed to her hearing/CAPD and told the guy.. he don’t want to see her. :cry:

I begged the Assistant…please, you don’t understand, I have spent Thosands of dollars and there is still something wrong that can’t be attributed to the CAPD alone.. :? He finally relented and we got to see Dr. Lerner.

Dr. Lerner spent a lot of time with her and went over all the IQ tests…there was a consistant drop in the processing speeds from 122 as a kindergartner to 71 as a 5th grader. After he tested her and anayzed the data Dr. Lerner apologized to me for jumping to conclusions. :lol:

I understand the hesitation with meds, and yet, if it could help attentiveness which in turn might help my son’s memory (that’s where I see a big problem — and IQ is average to above average), then I would do it. My son always says he’s stupid and gets very frustrated at times.

Patti, I have talked with Lori and almost made an appointment for a neuropsych eval., but because testing is so extremely expensive I thought I should use the money towards remediation (also I have piles and piles of test results and my son has had so much testing that I feel like he’s “tested out”). Although if there is a way just get an evaluation for ADD or memory testing that might be helpful.

Candy, If you do decide on LMB let me know how it goes. I am using S/S at home and I’m impressed with the program. Although I keep thinking we’d get so much more accomplished just going to the clinic. My son’s teacher has some health difficulties that may take a while to resolve so I’m thinking maybe it would be a good time to pull my son out for awhile. And yet, if he has attentional issues which may be the case, well maybe that needs to be taken care of first. There’s never an easy answer! :(

Sharon at the Education Station and see if she has some suggestions for you. Sharon is the one that organized all the years of testing on my daughter before I went into Dr. Lerner and he thought it was a neuro psyche who had did it because her analysis of the problem was just so good.

Lori couldn’t do medication but she could do an assessment to determine if ADD is an issue. You could also do a trial of medication through your pediatrician and see how it goes. That is what we did with our son once his sister was diagnosed with ADD, we realized he had similar issues.

Candy, for $150 Lorie Humphrey will review your child’s records with you and tell you if she feels it would be useful for her to do an eval on him. Daniel AMen is another big ADHD guru (he’s a psychiatrist).

Sharon Wenger of Education Station is or has spoken at CHADD WLA this month I think. When I went to her I was not pleased because she was pushing PACE before we were in the door. Her LMB remediation would have turned out to be nearly as expensive as The Kelter Center in WLA, although she didn’t make it sound that way in an initial phone conversation.

I’d be interested if you find an experienced Seeing Stars LMB tutor in mid Wilshire to WLA area.

$150 for an evaluation sounds reasonable, although with my luck she’d recommend the full eval which was, I think, about $3500 —and she’s booked like 6 months ahead!!

For all the brouhaha here, I think I would see a psychiatrist and perhaps do a trial of meds. Much, much cheaper and may just do the trick.

Since we are all telling our tales, here is mine.

No LDs, but ADHD and probably some other stuff in the mix as I look back through the family tree and spot the alchoholic here and the underachiever there, etc. A few years ago my brother received a diagnosis of adult ADHD (always there).

I have seen some of this in myself over the years, plus some other stuff I don’t like and never could control. I wanted to see Dr. Amen, but didn’t want to spend the money. I went to a doctor who has worked with him and we diagnosed ADHD and gave me some meds. Then he added another med. Then, I was still having issues that concerned me, he insisted on the brain scan. I dropped the whole thing and stopped meds.

About 9 months later I was crawling out of my skin, so I made an app’t with a psychiatrist on my insurance. She put me on the same crummy stuff the first doctor had me on, despite my protests. So, called up another doctor on my insurance and got in to see him. He and I (I had the thing figured out by then) diagnosed me as bi-polar II (I am very mild, I tend to become depressed easily and this comes out as agitation, short temper, etc. and very occasionally I do go a little manic and thinking I am just happy, evidently drive everyone around me crazy). This doctor charged me my $30 co-pay and started me on celexa. That was 6 months ago. The medication and the dosage are perfect, no changes have been required.

If you can find a good doctor who will talk with you, hear your concerns, believe that you have considered this very carefully, done your homework, etc. you just might get a trial prescription. If it works, then you hit the jackpot and did not have to fork over $2500.

A group of doctors, psychologists, etc. about two years ago published a statement that was authored by Russell Barkley. This was at a time when, like now, everybody and their brother was insisting we over identify ADHD and push meds. just to make our jobs easier (believe me, in my school nothing is further from the truth!!). This large (several pages of names) group of experts actually stated that ADHD is underdiagnosed!

I cannot help but wonder if ADHD is a dominant gene that is growing in the population? Also, this bunk that people like Thom Hartmann push, hunters and farmers, is rubbish. Hunters must maintain stellar self-control to bag their game. ADHDers are probably the least able group of persons to control their bodies and impulses over time to successfully pull-off a hunt. He confuses the active, bold, adventuresome individual with ADHD. They are not the same.

Annonny,

I did not read back to see exactly who you were replying to. But I just have to comment on your post. I think many kids are mistakenly diagnosed ADHD when what they really have is an anxiety diorder, bi-polar, OCD, etc. We have had a time with our son who is now 21. It’s too long of a story to go into here, but we have at times thought he was ADD (couldn’t focus or sleep), depressed (side effect probably), anxiety disorder, and what I really wonder is…maybe he is really bi-polar and these doctors just can’t see it in the brief time they see him. He really has symptoms that overlap into so many things. Zoloft helped him somewhat for a few months, but when it lost effectiveness, the doctor took him off and put him on something else, which was too hard on his body. He said he’d rather take nothing than to go through that again. But now he is saying he thinks he’d like to try meds again. But I am just not sure it is possible to get a correct diagnosis. If you read this, maybe you can email me through the private message feature on here and tell me how you finally figured it out. He is very irritable, sometimes overly talkative, but never really “happy”. I think that’s why he’s not easy to diagnose. (Been to regular doctor and 2 psychiatrists). I am really desperate to solve this problem and get him on the right medication.

Janis

You can try reading “why children can’t read and what we can do about it” a scientific revolution in reading (The Free Press, Diane McGuiness 1997)

It discusses the Linda Mood method and can help you with the decoding.

Janis, since these are brain-based difficulties, most diagnoses are made on soft signs. There is guess work Dr. Amen has a questionnaire on his website you can fill-out to get an idea of what issues you might have. I did that and watched myself, read, etc. Took me a while.

Many times bi-polar people are also ADHD and they need mood stabilizer and ADHD meds. I believe they stabilize the mood first (and when the ADHD doesn’t vanish, too) add the ADHD meds several months later. Seems a reasonable approach.

How do we tell this apart? Well, I am not an expert, however I believe there are some indicators that suggest whether we are looking at simple ADHD or something more complex. Simple ADHD oftentimes appears in a reasonably, otherwise, good natured child. The simple ADHD child will have difficulty sustaining attention, controlling impulses, organizing, etc. However, this child may generally get along with people pretty well and is sometimes even reasonably well-liked.

The bi-polar child may (I say may because I am not qualified to diagnose) have bouts of really bad temper (depression), rage attacks (I’ve seen some of these). ODD (oppositional defiance) has been characterized by one specialist I read as being in the same are of the brain as OCD (obsessive/compulsive disorder). I know that I have some ODD. The medication I take has helped this greatly. The ODD may be related to depression, but I can tell you it is just this almost uncontrollable desire or need to oppose or to defy. It does not seem to matter, when you are stuck in the mode, what the consequences are and what is told to you. I know in my own case I never could control it. The meds cause me to feel good enough that I don’t feel the need to be cantankerous very often and can be more agreeable.

In my limited experience usually the really difficult to manage children, the ones who can be nasty, defiant, temper tantrum, have more wrong that basic everyday ADHD, but that may be present, too.

Thank you very much, Anonny. I will check out Dr. Amen’s site. I had no idea he dealt with issues outside of ADHD.

Janis

I tutor privately, and often have my students test higher than they do in other settings, using the GORT-4 and WRMT-R. I’ve worried about this…am I testing in such a way as to give away the correct answer, for example? I work really hard to administer the tests in the way in which I have been trained, without feedback to the student, positive or negative.

I’ve come to the realization that my test scores are pretty consistent with others in pretesting, but do show more gains in posttesting, which is why I became concerned initially. I think that at least part of the discrepancy that you may see between your tutor’s reports of progress and other testing is that during testing with the tutor, your child is in a familiar setting with a familiar person, so the anxiety is lessened. Additionally, if your tutor has been working with your child for a while, there is no telling how many nonverbal cues your child is able to pick up on…..this is the one that really concerns me, because I’m trying to control it, but I don’t know if I’m being successful!

I guess my point is that all of the test scores you’ve received may be valid for your child, given the testing environment….and by the way, for your sanity, you’ll gain more information by looking at standard scores rather than age or grade levels. If you aren’t clear on interpreting standard scores, you may want to check out www.wrightslaw.com. They’ve got a good article on tests and measurements.
karyn

Oops…guess I wasn’t keeping up. I was replying to Candy from Oct 17th! :oops:
karyn

Annony,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I understand there’s a lot of controversy about meds, but I also know that sometimes they can help tremendously. I personally believe a “med trial” is worth trying.

Although my husband thinks we should just put Red Bull in my son’s lunch box every day!!!

You know, Red Bull in the lunch might not be such a crazy idea at that. Although I’d start a little milder, with say a can of Coke. A mild stimulant such as a moderate amount of sugar and caffeine might help with the energy issue. My daughter is hyperactive but at the same time fatigues very easily. We found early in life that she has to eat six tiny meals a day, and she needs carbohydrates regularly (she keeps good health and ideal weight on her junk food diet) and this has kept up into her twenties.

Well this morning I had to go to the store to pick up milk and guess what else I picked up???? A can of Red Bull! And yes, I put it in my son’s lunch today. I’ll be interested to hear if it made any difference for him. I’m not sure the effects would last too long. I know I drink iced tea almost ALL day! (self medication?).

Although, since he knows Red Bull gives him energy (we gave it to him once at home awhile back and asked him if he felt more energy — a leading question! Not reliable questioning of the “test subject”) So this is not a valid trial, but it may be interesting.

I know you were all kidding about the Red Bull and all, but I would be carerful. The ingredients in some of these energy drinks includes caffeine and ginseng. The effects of that substance is not known on children.
I have heard about episodes similar to psychosis. BTW, this is purely anectodal, I don’t think there is anything like research.

Even caffeine. I know of kids just going nuts on Mountain Dew. The caffeine content on the Dew is very high. Otoh, I had a kid long time ago, 5 years old and very hyper with multiple disabilties. The guardian was reluctant to use regular medication on the kid so I remember we gave him about a half a cup of coffee with milk and sugar (with permission) to him. He loved the coffee and did do a bit better! :-) I’m wondering, as I think he moved, what his first word was “coffee”?

—des