NeuroNet vs. Handle vs. NACD

Leann,
I don’t think the label is important, but understanding the deficit you are remdiating is. A good evaluation will tell you this information. I would prefer a good neuropsych. eval than one done by a therapy provider, simply because it will be more comprehensive. For example, my son appeared dysgraphic, couldn’t write a word. There had been some fine motor issues so doing OT wasn’t a crazy idea. But our neuropsych uncovered significant anxiety. Given that you can’t fix everything at once we attacked the anxiety first, and lo and behold, the writing started to flow.

This is not to say OT wouldn’t be appropriate at some other time, but the comprehensive report allowed us to prioritize a little better.

BTW, it still took a ton of research and input from the fabulous people on this board to help me figure out the right course of action. I have found no one provider that has all the answers. Good luck!!

The evaluation is CRUCIAL! DON”T get it from someone who is also in a position to sell you a particular treatment, for two reasons: first, some providers are unscrupulous and will tell you, based on proprietary evaluations rather than standardized testing used for years by professionals across settings, that your kid needs their treatment. Second, some very well-motivated evaluators who truly believe in the treatments they also offer are prone to see everything through the same lense. The result may be that you are told the same “cause” of your child’s problems that every child who sees these providers gets, not because they are out to rook you, but because they are biased by their own good faith beliefs. A name for the problem isn’t really necessary, but knowing that little Joey hasd these specific difficulties, as measured by these specific tests that are known to be reliable and useful across disciplines, is. You may not ever learn what “causes” the problem, or you might be given a very specific cause. Go for a developmental pediatrician or another expert in diagnosing (and distinguishing) LD and ADHD, who does NOT offer treatment but instead simply makes suggestions as to where you can go to get appropriate treatment. Make sure the evaluator is up on some of the alternative approaches and can tell you what the research shows about those treatments, as well as what the research shows about medication, if ADHD is diagnosed. Make sure the child gets a thorough medical evaluation as well to rule out medical causes for the symptoms, including thyroid disease and get a psychological evaluation as well to rule out something like depression or OCD. Be thorough and start out open-minded. Don’t rule any treatments in or out until you have really, really researched them and talked to experts about them.

I think to the well informed parent an evaluation can give you a better understanding. As Karen stated I have not found one person who has a handle on all the different types of remediation available. I am not saying they are not out there.

I think the one aspect of the evaluation that can be truely helpful is in dealing with the school. A note from a professional that states your child needs this or that will usually yield better results than your opinion. OT in the school was very helpful and an eval might get you a better reading program one on one or other things like a listening device.

I think you are on the right track in dealing with the sensory first. I think that we have conquered most of my son’s sensory issues but they are still a few small areas that need more work. Maybe there will always be.

Regarding establishing right left dominance. This is an interesting area. My son is now mostly right sided dominant although we didn’t accomplish this by making him only use his right side. It just sort of came out of all the therapy that addressed his laterality and sensory issues.

I have looked at the handle institute and neuronet and I think my son’s vision therapy was in that family of therapies. It has done wonders for him in many areas of life.

Also consider interactive metronome. It was recommended to us by a sensory integration ot and I do think it can have an integrative effect. It took us way more than the normal number of sessions but it was completely worth it.

Darn,

I guess there are no “magic bullets” huh.

I really appreciate your valuable input (guest and KarenN).

I am getting him set up with a local pediatrician who comes highly recommended for the medical side. I can’t find a neuropshychologist but I’ll just keep on looking - this is such hard work!

Do you think a developmental pediatrician will do as good a job as a neuropsychologist? I’ve heard there are some in Orlando (an hour away from me) I’m still waiting on my school advocate to get back to me with the name of the developmental pediatrician she knows of in Orlando.

I spend HOURS on the computer and on the phone. If I find a good neuropsych, the chaces are that he won’t be on my insurance policy. I am prepared to pay out of pocket if I have to but the search is still not an easy one.

I know in my heart that Dean is full of potential and once the areas that are “blocked” are remediated, he will be just fine - but the effort to sort it all out is so daunting that I see now why so many people just leave it up to the school and accept meds without question.

I am willing to put him on meds if it turns out that all other options have been exhausted - I just don’t want to start with meds.

Thanks everyone for listening and for your valuable input.

I’d love to hear details of your experience from anyone who has tried NACD, Handle, or NeuroNet

Linda F, I did not mean to leave you out when I thanked people for their input… you must have been typing your message at the same time I was typing mine!

I’ve been wondering if Dean will need a vision eval as well as vision therapy as when the Kindergarten teacher did an entrance test and asked him to draw a picture of a person - Dean drew a person with all of the parts… head, eyes, nose, mouth, neck, trunk, arms, legs, fingers, knees, etc. BUT, he started at the top with the feet and drew the person upside down then turned the page back right-side up to show the teacher!

I think Dean’s doing headstands on the couch to watch TV is related as well.

We have done Neuronet therapy. I would highly recommend it.
It is a vestibularly based integrative therapy. I have seen major changes in my son’s functioning because of it.

Beth

Hi Beth,

Thanks for your input!

Did you use the provider in Orlando or Ft. Lauderdale?

Would you mind sharing some of the behaviors that were improved? What were they like “before” and “after”?

Thanks again!

We live in a Ft. Lauderdale suburb so we drive into Ft. Lauderdale for the therapy.

It is very difficult to separate out all the therapies we have done but here are some things that I would directly attribute to NN. My son had def. vestibular issues before he did NN. I didn’t recognize them as he learned to ride a bike at age 4. But he always rode fast, and after we started NN I realized he couldn’t ride slow. This was a safety issue—he rode into a parked car the year we started NN. Some time afterwards, he rode his bike at a slow speed, next to me as I pushed his brother in a stroller. He learned to walk on stilts, and jump on a pogo stick. He became better at sports.

His ability to learn and his memory has dramatically improved. He was the kind of kid who his first grade teacher told me he can’t seem to learn. He now is pulling mostly A’s and B’s, although sprinkled with the occasional D and F. For example, he is learning all the states in the U.S., their capitals, and abbreviations. He still needs more repetition than other kids but we frankly are amazed on what he can do. He is 10.

He had word retrieval issues. He tested in the 9th percentile and two years later he was in the 49%. This I have to attribute partially to Interactive Metronome as well. We had hit a wall with NN and IM got us through it and then he was able to bring his scores into a normal range.

He is much more socially engaged. Again, I think this was a combination of IM and NN. But there was a pronounced difference that my family which lives out of state noticed.

He was dismissed from sp. ed for math after we did NN for about six months. We had not even done the homework during this time because of a conflict with the teacher over the volume, who then got mad and gave him none. He still has some math issues—had difficulty learning long division and fractions last year but again there is a major change from where we started.

His auditory processing has improved. Again, we have done different therapies along the way but he could not, for example, localize sound at all before NN.

His reading speed improved from 30 wpm to somewhere over 100. This was due, mostly I think, to improvements in visual verbal integration. ”

He learned to visualize from NN. His reading comprehension scores went from 95 SS to 115 SS on the Woodcock Johnson comprehension test in three years. He scored 29% in reading comprehension on FCAT in third and 65% in fourth.

My child still has little issues all over the place that make his life more difficult than other kids. We still don’t have the reading piece totally in place, although his comprehension is above average and he is getting A’s and B’s on tests at school. He still is below grade level in decoding (but on grade level for sight vocabulary). But he is doing pretty well—he just was on the second honor roll (all A’s and B’s) for the first time in his life. He was on an IEP from age 3 on but now is in a parochial school where he receives a few modifications and accomodations (spelling doesn’t count except on tests, reduced spelling list, can xerox definitions for vocabulary rather than write them out). He probably spends twice as much time on homework as other kids. He is repeating fourth grade—the school is much more demanding than the public school and he was on the weaker end of average last year.

My son has been diagnosed with sensory integration deficits, word retrieval deficits, auditory processing disorder, ADD-in attentive, and a nonverbal learning disability as well as dyslexia.(Did I leave something out?)
Beth

I have a somewhat diff. philosophy on the testing (and I can TOTALLY relate to where you are coming from!). I WILL put a disclaimer that states just because it worked for us, does not mean it will work for Dean - you ds has some very different issues than what we were faced with.

However, I have been floored by how much ‘complete’ neurophsych testing can cost - I’ve heard folks on BB ref. $2500 to $3500? I am not financially strapped, but I am not rich either. I want to spend my $$ on my best bang for the buck. If I spent all my $$ on the diagnosis - I would not have any left for the the remediation and to me the remediation was the most important. This means I had to educate myself, ask alot of questions, put pieces together, be creative and go with my motherly instinct. DO NOT CUT YOURSELF SHORT ON YOUR INSTINCT ABILITIES.

I started with the base issues - visual processing, auditory processing, sensory integration. I went to an SLP to do a complete auditory processing eval (cost $150), she recommended an OT for some visual and motor (cost $100). I then went to local univ for CAPD ($100). Since found out local univ. can be GREAT for complete speech/language/auditory processing evals - cost MUCH less too. These basic tests gave me something to start with. Push your school for complete testing - tell them you want auditory, speech, behavior, etc. etc. Be forwarned that the school only does a subset of what a paid professional might do - but again, it can give you a place to start.

PACE eval was free (I had this done twice over a 3yr period). It gives you a starting point for many cognitive issues. I went to a reading center and they did a very indepth reading test - (cost - free). NACD cost me $$ (more on that in diff thread). A listening test from Tomatis was $50. IM test cost me $20(and we found out we didn’t need it).

My point is that you can do some basic tests to get you started that won’t cost you $1000s of $$. You may have to put the pieces together yourself - some people would rather pay to have that done for them, but I think in the end many still had to put alot of the pieces together too.

When we started this journey 5 years ago, I had NEVER heard of Central Auditory Processing Disorder. That first SLP we went too (for $150) was the one who introduced me to this. I searched the net and had tears in my eyes - this decribed my dd to a tee(I really didn’t need to pay a professional to tell me my dd had CAPD - I already knew it). My bet is that you already kind of know the issues/diagnosis your son has - just not the nitty details on how it’s effecting him.

I know in my heart that my dd also has some ADD inattentive symptoms. I’m not going to pay someone to tell me this - I already know it. When/if the times comes that it’s impacting her learning to a point where she is extremely frustrated (today she is very happy with herself and school), I will ask her Dr. for a trial of meds. NO $$ spent for diagnosis.

You are WAY ahead of where I was when my dd was the same age as your son. Follow your instincts.

We went ‘on program’ with NACD when my dd was 6. Both NACD and HANDLE believe there is a dominant side of the brain and most people who are more neurologically organized than others, will establish a dominant hemisphere(there is lots of research that backs up this basis/theory). NACDs approach is that if you are mixed dominant (eyes, ears, hands, feet) AND you have learning problems or your function is not performing, then you should SWITCH dominance and establish a 100% dominant side of your body. HANDLE believes that you don’t have to SWITCH your dominant side, but that you can make the brain ‘talk’ better between each hemisphere. Both programs will put you on a home based program to help you become more neurologically organized. NACD also includes as part of their home program academic goals - they really have a whole home school based curriculum that you can do all of or part of.

I personally chose to do NACD over Handle because I felt they addressed the auditory deficits more and used sound therapy as a base of which I had already invested a bunch of money for Tomatis. I cannot remember why I got the following impression, but for some reason I recall that HANDLE had a better ‘handle’ on the visual processing deficits.

NACD program was the hardest, most burn out program we did. We only lastest about 6mo. into the program beflore we had to throw in the towel. If you dont’ homeschool and/or have a great support network around you to give you breaks, it is VERY difficult. We never did switch dominance(which is also VERY hard to do). There were some other ‘issues’ I had with NACD as well.

HOWEVER, I learned a great deal from the program overall and dont’ think it was a waste of my money. In hindsight, I would recommend to anyone who had a level 1 child (is not dealing with Down Syndrom, Autism, brain injury etc) to look into the parent training class(I would have saved some $$ if I had just done this from the get go). Hopefully they still offer this? If I remember right - it was around $500, plus travel/living. NACD gave me a huge sense of control over our situation. It answered alot of my WHY questions, gave me a new support network to bounce ideas off of and taught me HOW to teach my dd. Although we did not switch dominance, we WERE able to improve her memory as they measure by digit span(a unique philosphy of NACD) and I did see measurable improvements from this. Also their information ‘input’ techniques worked on my dd who at the time had a very poor memory. I still use alot of what I learned when helping her with homework etc.

My dd was in K the year we did NACD (technically for the 2nd year in row - we were going to a pre-K/K Montessori class). During the 1st year in this class, her teacher told me she had never had a student like my dd -NOTHING was sticking with her and this was the most frustrating year my dd has since experienced with school. We did Tomatis at the end of that 1st school year and finished early summer. She started K at that 2nd year at the bottom of the class. She EASILY ended that year of K at the head of her class(reading, writing, math). Her teacher gave her her graduation diploma with tears in her eyes and my dd has not had a negative school experience since - she loves school and has high self-esteem. (although not free of issues, but we know how to navigate them alot better).

P.S. Her K teacher thought I was whacko. The SLP who did her APD testing strongly DID NOT recommend Tomatis (not enough research - which by the way if you go to Tomatis.com, there is ALOT of research posted on the site -esp out of Canada) and when I told her about NACD and what we were doing daily, she thought I went off the deep end.

Boy, I’m glad I went with my instincts and did not listen to the experts….

Neuronet (like Handle) also works on integrating the 2 sides of your brain to work better together. It’s run/developed by a very good audiologist who focuses on the vestibular/sensory aspects of APD. Beth could tell you how much an eval would cost, but I bet it’s not alot. And their main office is MUCH closer to your backyard than NACD or Handle.

Both NACD and Handle have information audio tapes you can order. NACD’s consists of several tapes - the whole series is $100 (I would ask them if they have clients who might be interested in selling theirs for cheaper?) The NACD tapes teach you enough to do some ‘basic’ testing on our own - such as dominance, and cross-laterality.

Your posts on this are very interesting. We did exercises that deal with this area through a book called Integrating Mind Brain and Body through Movement by Etta Rowley. I would highly recommend this book.

We worked through the series of exercises over a 3-4 month span and just finished up. There were some exercises that he got stuck on but over time he was able to move his body in a smooth controlled manner. I really saw how these exercises helped him to gain conrol of integrating not only his left and right sides but his upper and lower half of his body.
There wasn’t any emphasis on establishing dominance but rather getting control of movement.

I am convinced that this helped him in sports and really helped clear up the laterality difficulties that didn’t seem to resolve with other things we tried. He had a major problem with controlling the upper and lower halves of his body simultaeneously. This was evident as I watched him do certain exercises. There was one group that took an entire month, but finally, he conquered them.

I think these exercises had an impact on his overall confidence as well.

I looked up the book you mentioned, “Integrating Mind, Brain and Body Through Movement” on amazon.com and couldn’t find it. Is it out of print? Amazon. com lists just about everything. Do you have any more identifying information about the book?

thanks,

Linda W.

I think the book “Integrating Mind Brain Body Through Movement” is self-published, because there is no ISBN # on my copy. I got mine through the OEP (Optometric Extension Program) website — http://www.oep.org/catalog.htm — although the online ordering wasn’t working when I went there to check just now. It came to about $40 with shipping.

I really like what I see in this book in terms of the exercises (don’t much care for the explanations preceding them). It seems to me these would be really good for sensory integration, especially visual-motor integration. Also, the exercises would be very easy for a parent to do at home.

Nancy

This is the phone number that is in the book for the Rowley eye clinic. I think you can get the book through them. No guarantees though. We got it through our therapist.

425 483 8000

DEA,

Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond - when I first read your posts I almost had tears in my eyes from the sense of relief and feeling that my thought processes were validated. You gave me SO MANY good ideas about different, cost effective ways to get Dean “tested”. Thank you, Thank you, I agree completely with your comment that many people who pay a lot of money for the expensive “comprehensive tests” still end up having to go to several sources and piece together what would work best For Them.

I won’t mind getting additional tests from “experts” once I have a much better “handle” (so to speak :-)) on exactly what deficits I am working with.

I was so appreciative of your description of your impressions of NACD. Until you caused me to look into it more carefully (their website is extensive) I would never have known how much of a time committment NACD was going to require. Handle seems to do the same kind of in-depth evaluation as NACD but their philosophy is that “weakened systems shut down if over-stimulated” They recommend gently “teasing” the weakened systems and their daily program is only 30 minutes a day. If any signs of distress are observed, that particular exercise is to be terminated for the day.

I still see that NACD has a lot to offer and appreciate your recommendation regarding the parent training. I wish I had enough money to do all 3 programs because I bet that each program will have something “unique” and provide a “piece of the puzzle”. I am so very enamoured with these programs because I am CERTAIN that Dean is struggling mightily in the sensory integration area.

I am not completely sure of my path but I have “almost” decided to try www.sensorylearning.com in lieu of Tomatis (I found a provider that would bill it as PT and my insurance would cover all but $1,000). For this intervention I KNOW it is a gamble. The provider even told me that the success rate is around 80%. For this reason I haven’t completely decided if I want to take the gamble but right now I know we can’t afford Tomatis (either the money or the time away with a 19 month old at home).

Even if I do Sensory Learning (and especially if I do not) I plan to address the auditory issue by combining The Listening Program with Handle. Did you know the tapes for The Listening Program are the exact same tapes that Tomatis uses? It is the same manufacturer. The only difference is that The Listening Program does not use Bone Conduction and does not have the voice work involved - it is also spread out over a longer period of time.

In the Seattle Office, Handle has providers who are also The Listening Program providers - by doing The Listening Program through Handle, the service costs for The Listening Program are included in the Handle price!

Initially I thought his main problems were primarily auditory (especially because of his history of chronic ear infections). But when I located a Sensory Integration Dysfuntion website the “list of symptoms” was a B-I-N-G-O for Dean. I felt like some of the mothers on the e-mail list had visited my house and were describing Dean - not their kids!I feel like he is one of the kids who could “blossom” if so much of his mental energy was not taken up with trying to “grasp” the basic sensory inputs. I really feel like Handle could help us here.

It is interesting that you thought Handle had a good grasp of the visual as I am thinking Dean might have some visual issues as well (drawing pictures upside down - inability to make his pencil go where he wants when he is trying to copy a letter.)

I love your philosophy regarding your dd and inattentive ADD, I agree completely with your reasoning and would follow the exact same path.

Well, I rambled and rambled but again, I want to thank you SO MUCH for your valuable and detailed input!

I think you are on the right path and have done your homework well. Keep in mind that most of these programs have a similar approach - they are all stimulating the vestibular system which in turn creates new neuropathways to parts of the brain that had not been developed before. Tomatis uses sound, Handle uses movement, Neuronet uses a combination etc. etc.

I think location is a key decision point. If we did not live in a city where Tomatis was offered, we probably would not have done. And if I had lived close to where Neuronet was offered - I may have considered that.

When we were looking for an intensive reading program when dd was in 2nd grade, I ended up choosing PACE/Master the Code vs. LMB because of time/location. I could not find a local LMB provider - the LMB center and the reading center I was looking at were both very expensive and required driving 1hr away every day after school in heavy rush hour traffic. Although I REALLY wanted someone else to do the reading instruction, I got PACE/MTC certified (they are HQ very close to me - closer than the LMB center) and did it myself.

You just have to way the pros/cons. Good luck to you - let us know what you end up doing and how it’s going for you.

The more I learn about Handle, Neuronet, Tomatis, Balametrics, the Dore Centers, etc., the more the metaphor of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. Our brains are so complex! So many practitioners (and parents!) are struggling to figure out how to help children with a wide spectrum of neurological challenges. All of these therapies have at least a good piece of the puzzle but probably none have accurately described the entire “elephant.”