Reading questions

Oh my goodness! I certainly don’t agree with the psychologist either!

Without seeing complete testing, this is taking a shot in the dark, but I’ll bet she has a language comprehension/concept imagery weakness and would greatly benefit from the Visualizing and Verbalizing for Language Comprehension program by Lindamood Bell. It is possible that the Seeing Stars program might help her with fluency as well.

If you haven’t already, take a look at the Lindamood Bell site and read the descriptions of the programs.

http://www.lindamoodbell.com/

Janis

[quote=”Janis”]Oh my goodness! I certainly don’t agree with the psychologist either!

Without seeing complete testing, this is taking a shot in the dark, but I’ll bet she has a language comprehension/concept imagery weakness and would greatly benefit from the Visualizing and Verbalizing for Language Comprehension program by Lindamood Bell. It is possible that the Seeing Stars program might help her with fluency as well.

If you haven’t already, take a look at the Lindamood Bell site and read the descriptions of the programs.

http://www.lindamoodbell.com/

Janis[/quote]

Thanks, Janis! Then I may be on the right track. I am in contact with an SLP from a private practice that does Lindamoodbell, among other programs. These people provide consults for free online or by phone even if you decide to go elsewhere. The SLP will be helping understand my daughter’s evals as they come up. I have some funds set aside for this, but I am hoping to convince the school somehow to help pay for this. Since it can be proven the SRA’s did not help her, the school needs to do something else. Do you happen to know what kind of assessments/testing that may show how she is doing in the areas of comprehension/concept imagery?

Debbie

I am not certain what you are looking for. Your daughter appears to have average decoding skills, this is totally normal. Her handicapping condition strongly affects language comprehension and probably social comprehension. Both of these areas WILL impact reading comprehension, because we read language, so if our listening/speaking comprehension is low average (SS in the 80’s and this is well below grade level), then the reading comprehenion (reading words) will also be at a lower level. My question would be, is her reading comprehension commensurate with her language comprehension? If it is, then she is probably doing about what she can do. Even a standard score of 90 in an area is below grade level, despite being in the average range, it is still well below the 50th percentile.

If there are social and pragmatic deficits, these will be very apparent in reading fiction. She will miss subtlties, because she will miss them in read life, too.

I have always felt that the oral language and social understandings have to be in place before the reading comprehension can happen at that level.

[quote=”Anitya”]I am not certain what you are looking for. Your daughter appears to have average decoding skills, this is totally normal. Her handicapping condition strongly affects language comprehension and probably social comprehension. Both of these areas WILL impact reading comprehension, because we read language, so if our listening/speaking comprehension is low average (SS in the 80’s and this is well below grade level), then the reading comprehenion (reading words) will also be at a lower level. My question would be, is her reading comprehension commensurate with her language comprehension? If it is, then she is probably doing about what she can do.

Her reading comprehension does not commensurate with her language comprehension. I do know that is an area the school needs to work on.
On the other hand, from what I understand (and, I am sure my understanding is limited) a child cannot achieve more than her IQ, if valid, which she is doing. From what I also understand, if a child has at least a normal IQ, they should be progressing, not regressing if the appropriate services are in place. My daughter is regressing.

If there are social and pragmatic deficits, these will be very apparent in reading fiction. She will miss subtlties, because she will miss them in read life, too.
I have always felt that the oral language and social understandings have to be in place before the reading comprehension can happen at that level.[/quote]

Yes, her disability in language does affect her in many ways. Being autistic she will always have difficulty with pragmatics and socialization. This is being improved with SLP services at school. However, from what I understand there are specific areas that can be improved from where she is at now instead of those needs not being addressed. I am trying to discover how her auditory processing affects her. This has not been addressed in the school, and this is one area the school has also agreed to look into more. Since her weaknesses are significantly under her IQ, those weaknesses need to be addressed to bring them up to a higher level. How can her listening/speaking comprehension be addressed? Reading? I am just trying to learn what specific programs and services to fit her needs that the school is also responsible for. I do understand the school cannot address all her difficulties fully, but should be able to teach using appropriate programs and services. When this is in place, I will need to provide complimentary services outside the school.

Debbie

VV might help an autistic child with comprehending fiction. The center itself does work with hylexic (outstanding decoders and usually on the spectrum somewhere) and other autistic kids. I also dont’ really like fiction but after reading Harry Potter, to which I got hooked, I started reading other fiction a bit. (I am in my 50s and on the spectrum somewhere). Just from looking at VV it takes the comprehension process apart and so that it will be understandable to many kids. Some aspects may be useful for verbal communication as well.

Patti M is our resident SLP, but don’t know if she is reading right now.

—des

I would just add that language processing and comprehension as well as auditory skills/receptive language fall into the territory of the SLP. But again, sometimes they will make the excuse that the child is performing up to their IQ, so they won’t help them. Well, duh, these problems cause the IQ score to be depressed, too!

I am just going to say that in many places public school speech/language is not really helpful because they rarely give the child the intensive therapy they need. I know in my district the typical amount of time served is two half hours a week in a group of 4-6 kids. This just won’t work for a lot of problems.

So I’d be trying to get the private services if at all possible.

Janis

Maybe I am not understanding. Her verbal IQ is 72, this is borderline deficient. This generally includes things like her vocabulary, her ability to understand and answer “common sense questions,” categorical reasoning, math reasoning (answering math questions presented verbally).

So, we have a variety of ways of approaching language understanding/comprehenion. This is one of the hallmarks of autism, low language skills. Since reading is a language process, then you cannot expect reading scores to be dramatically higher than the verbal scores. If a child does not have a speaking/listening vocabulary appropriate to age level, they will not comprehend written language appropriate to age level.

Reading comprehension skills, given that reading is a LANGUAGE process, are not likely to approach the higher, in the normal range, nonverbal IQ score, because a different area of IQ is being measured.

Reading comprehension requires that a child know and understand word meanings, comprehend meanings of phrases and sentences, comprehend different syntactic structures of sentences, interpret information, read between and beyond the lines……….in short, think at sophisticated levels with language. If the child cannot do this when langauge is presented verbally, then there is not the expectation the child will do this more successfully when reading.

We estimate reading potential by assessing LISTENING comprehension.

The way to improve reading comprehension is to work on the components of language comprehension: increasing vocabulary, working with categorical reasoning, working with the pragmatics of language, working with varying sentence structures……….Children who are on the autism spectrum typically have great difficulty in these areas.

If your child’s standard scores in reading comprehension are commensurate with her standard scores in language comprehension: vocabulary, syntax, reasoning, pragmatics………then your child is probably achieving at a rate that is appropriate with her current level of language development. She will grow in both areas if taught together.

Children with autism usually need every single thing about language taught explicitely to them, for instance they will struggle with idiomatic language, nothing will be pointedly obvious to them, everything will have to be taught. This can take forever, it is not an endeavor that ever stops.

[quote=”Janis”]I would just add that language processing and comprehension as well as auditory skills/receptive language fall into the territory of the SLP. But again, sometimes they will make the excuse that the child is performing up to their IQ, so they won’t help them. Well, duh, these problems cause the IQ score to be depressed, too!

I am just going to say that in many places public school speech/language is not really helpful because they rarely give the child the intensive therapy they need. I know in my district the typical amount of time served is two half hours a week in a group of 4-6 kids. This just won’t work for a lot of problems.

So I’d be trying to get the private services if at all possible.

Janis[/quote]

Thanks Janis! Yes, I am looking into it. I know that the school can’t provide enough by themselves.

Debbie

[quote=”Anitya”]Maybe I am not understanding. Her verbal IQ is 72, this

I just posted in detail, but it seems as if it got lost. I can’t re-respond at this moment, but will try again tomorrow. Hubby got home, need to get the kids in bed…

Also, sorry it has taken me so long to respond. My crazy life got crazier for a while. Just want to quickly say for the moment that I appreciated your response. It enabled me to understand her scores a bit better. Just had a few comments and questions.

Debbie

Hi Anitya,

[quote=”Anitya”]Maybe I am not understanding. Her verbal IQ is 72, this is borderline deficient. This generally includes things like her vocabulary, her ability to understand and answer “common sense questions,” categorical reasoning, math reasoning (answering math questions presented verbally).

So, we have a variety of ways of approaching language understanding/comprehenion. This is one of the hallmarks of autism, low language skills. Since reading is a language process, then you cannot expect reading scores to be dramatically higher than the verbal scores. If a child does not have a speaking/listening vocabulary appropriate to age level, they will not comprehend written language appropriate to age level. ”

I think part of my difficulty was having a difficult time in understanding her scores. You have helped to make it more clear to me.

“Reading comprehension requires that a child know and understand word meanings, comprehend meanings of phrases and sentences, comprehend different syntactic structures of sentences, interpret information, read between and beyond the lines……….in short, think at sophisticated levels with language. If the child cannot do this when langauge is presented verbally, then there is not the expectation the child will do this more successfully when reading.”

This is an area where I think the school could be providing more services. I have recently been in contact with a school psych who used to work for this district. She recommended more 1-1 services (daily) either pull out or 1-1 assistance in the classroom at those times when she needs help in the areas of difficulty. She recommended more intensive services now such as 1-1, tutoring, and ESY since it is more difficult to get services in this district in middle school and beyond. Oh, yes…and another 30 minutes of SLP services in the school working on language.

Her teacher already told me that she cannot provide the 1-1 help my daughter needs with 28 other children in the classroom. She does have study-buddies which are helpful at times, but they are children who cannot always give the assistance she needs to be successful.

“We estimate reading potential by assessing LISTENING comprehension. ”

Hers is 82. That is why the Resource Teacher believes her scores in the 80’s for SRA is fine. What can be done to help this improve? Does APD affect this?

“The way to improve reading comprehension is to work on the components of language comprehension: increasing vocabulary, working with categorical reasoning, working with the pragmatics of language, working with varying sentence structures……….Children who are on the autism spectrum typically have great difficulty in these areas.”

And, always will. I am looking into outside services to what would benefit her the most. I understand my daughter may be a fit for FFW then a reading program. I am in contact with an audiologist/SLP who gives FFW training and uses LMB. I hope to get something started in the near future.
I will have to get more SLP services in there somewhere, too. Thanks.

Debbie

[quote=”des”]VV might help an autistic child with comprehending fiction. The center itself does work with hylexic (outstanding decoders and usually on the spectrum somewhere) and other autistic kids. I also dont’ really like fiction but after reading Harry Potter, to which I got hooked, I started reading other fiction a bit. (I am in my 50s and on the spectrum somewhere). Just from looking at VV it takes the comprehension process apart and so that it will be understandable to many kids. Some aspects may be useful for verbal communication as well.

Patti M is our resident SLP, but don’t know if she is reading right now.

—des[/quote]

Thanks, Des! By the way my son checked out the Harry Potter books for me to read. I got hooked, too but I am not on the spectrum somewhere
:-)

Debbie

>Thanks, Des! By the way my son checked out the Harry Potter books for me to read. I got hooked, too but I am not on the spectrum somewhere
:-)

Debbie[/quote]

Well Debbie, I don’t think liking Harry Potter has anything at all to do with the autism spectrum.

BTW, to change the subject, Lindamood Bell does not test for IQ (although I am sure they would be qualified). They feel that it is a limiting no. and not necessarily having to do with actual potential. They work with many kids who have been tested elsewhere as having low IQs.

—des

Be aware that Visualilzing and Verbalizing only touches the tip of the iceberg for comprehension. It’s a lot like decoding — learning what it teaches can open floodgates for many people, but there can be other confusions as well, and other skills that still need to be taught.

Hi Debbie,
I think VV would be a very good start. Also, you may want to take a look at LMB’s most recent statistical research report. From what I remember, students in their program described as autistic made some very good gains.

One more thing to keep in mind, good decoding skills don’t always guarentee good reading skills. Make sure you also consider RAN scores.

Awhile back a local friend of mine was telling me about something she saw on TV. Apparently there was a woman whose son was autistic and she was being featured because she had made a huge difference in his life. According to my friend the woman basically talked to him constantly all day. I never saw this program so I don’t know the details or accuracy of what she told me. I’d be curious to hear more about it.

My own son has some language issues and I’ve always tried to make a point of talking to him as much as possible and asking lots and lots of questions throughout the day. Awhile back I got the book “Language Wise” and it has some good language exercises and games. I even try to use them sometimes when we’re traveling in the car.

[quote=”des”]>Thanks, Des! By the way my son checked out the Harry Potter books for me to read. I got hooked, too but I am not on the spectrum somewhere
:-)

Debbie[/quote]

Well Debbie, I don’t think liking Harry Potter has anything at all to do with the autism spectrum.

:-) That is good!

BTW, to change the subject, Lindamood Bell does not test for IQ (although I am sure they would be qualified). They feel that it is a limiting no. and not necessarily having to do with actual potential. They work with many kids who have been tested elsewhere as having low IQs.

—des[/quote]

Personally, from what I understand IQ tests are not necessarily accurate anyway. I was not going to ask for another except for the fact that this school does not want to give her more services since she is working at or above her IQ level. I was informed that any LD she may have is too hidden, but that written expression *may* be one. Written expression type of work is the unfinished work that is usually sent home to do as extra homework.

Debbie