Some things never change!

Steve,

I see your point but I think that there is plenty of blame to go around. The anti-drug side gets attacked and the moderators do nothing but ban the anti drug side.

Lucid and fair arguments get deleted. Factual links get deleted with no explanation from the mods.

Anyone who disagrees with the pro drug side is called Ball or worse.

If an anti-drug person comes on they are attacked by a gang, called insane, psychotic and ultimately banned.

The pro drug side breaks the rules with impunity and cry foul when ever the error of their position get exposed.

I would hope this forum in some way would be a search for knowledge but what it is is a place to shoot down reason and logic and promote ignorance.

I am somewhere in the middle about stim therapy but I am finding it easier to make the case for never medicating.

There are other forums and I have half a mind to invite some anti-druggers here.

It is obvious to me that the owners of this forum are pro-drug. I am curious as to why they won’t state a public position.

The pro-druggers remind me of evangelists who are unsure of their faith and are deathly afraid to hear why non beleivers are comfortable in their positions.

Are the pro druggers so weak in their beliefs that they can’t handle the fact that alot of people are going to read and think for themselves?
I think LDonline has the same fears.

So when 3 or 4 new “trolls” show up they will keep telling the truth and presenting the science and the Ritalin moms go on the warpath.

To LDonline: Follow the rules you made and enforce them fairly.

Steve, they know darn well the people they accuse of being Brian or Ball is not Brian or Ball.

I also find it quite interesting that one person can so easily upset these stable and mature parents.

The reason there is little talk of parenting strategies is because in order to discuss parenting we would need some parents here. About all they ever talk about is drugs. There’s more to parenting than passing out pills and going to the doctor.

Why have all my posts been deleted? I’m not a troll, I’m a registered user and a mature woman, I have never attacked anyone (but have been attacked), have behaved and responded in a mature fashion, and have simply written and stated my experiences and opinions.

I’m not Brian or “Ball”, and don’t even know who that person/s is/are.

Is there a problem with any of that on a message board? Or just this one?

I joined this board to get/share information, and whether the information I read here are my personal opinions and experiences or not doesn’t matter to me, just as long as I can be better equipped to help my daughter. I never expected to be attacked for voicing an opposing opinion on a message board such as this!

This board was actually recommended to me by a friend.

I agree. What is going on here?

Take a closer look. Entire threads were deleated, not just one or two peoples posts. Those threads were going down the toilet, and very few, can claim innocense in participating in that process. This might be a good time for a reality check. As one poster recently wrote about having her son take responsibility for his behavior, and his school work, there are many adults on this board that need to do the same.

I too would like to see more discussion regarding parenting questions. Less arguments and attacks would be much more helpful and constructive for all of us. I’ve tried to stay out of many of the heated discussions. My feeling is that both sides need to respect the other. I am fairly new to this board but have posted on different types of boards for years. What is happening here surprised me as I’ve never experienced this anywhere else. I have started looking for other boards. I would be interested in finding a place where regardless of personal opinions about meds we can respect eachother’s opinions and discuss issues relating to our ad/hd children openly without fear of verbal attacks.

Peace to all

JenM wrote: <<I would be interested in finding a place where regardless of personal opinions about meds we can respect each other’s opinions and discuss issues relating to our ad/hd children openly without fear of verbal attacks. >>

I couldn’t agree more. I would like to be able to state my opinion and personal experiences without anyone taking it personally and ripping me apart. I’m sure many of you feel exactly the same way. Are we not all adults here? Why don’t we ALL behave like we are.

My sentiments too— Peace to all. After all, we are all so much alike in so many of our struggles with our precious children. Let’s try to help each other. Even if we need to agree to disagree on certain topics.

Sorry, forgot to log in. That was me, as “Guest” above, posting at at 1.27pm.

Steve, It is my humble opinion that you’ve got it wrong. The only posts that appeared to me to be under attack were those of the Troll. That’s just my take on things. People get real tired of a bully and they take things into their own hands. I don’t feel that people need to feel guilty for defending themselves or defending others. I could be wrong, but I suspect that you haven’t been around enough to read all the posts and figure out that all these aliases are one person for the most part. How much pestering and abuse should people have to take.

Steve, I have to respectfully disagree with you.

I really only see venomous attacks about the issue from the anti med side. Yes, then some of the parents who feel accused and victimized back - but never about the parenting choices the anti-med folks make. I’ve never heard a parent state that all children with ADD should be medicated and if you don’t you are a lousy parent. I have often heard the anti-med people make such claims.

My observation is that many thinking caring loving parents grapple with this decision. Sometimes, as in my case, the decision you make doesn’t work and you have to start grappling again.

To be told repeatedly that if I were a better parent my child wouldn’t have attentional issues is just silly. Like if I stood over my son and yelled “READ” loudly enough he’d pick up Harry Potter and read away. Its just not that simple, as you know.

Having a child with ADD/ADHD or any related or similar LD has nothing to do with bad parenting, good parenting, or anything in-between. I too thought I was on the right track with the decisions I made, but then had to start grappling again.

To attack a parent struggling to help their child is just sick, and I have to say I didn’t like it much when I was attacked on this very board for simply stating my opinions, and then relating my experiences of why I won’t put my daughter on these meds.

I appreciate the respectfulness of the disagreements expressed. This is a good start. I must stress that I have spend a good deal of time on this board, and it is very clear to me that the attacks go in both directions. The “pro-med” attacks are sometimes more subtle, but no less damaging. I have been accused of being “BALL” on more than one occasion, simply because I posted RESEARCH REFERENCES supporting the fact that there is no evidence of a long-term positive effect of the large-scale medication of ADHD kids. This did not criticize anybody at all - yet I was roundly attacked and accused of being a troll. I have always maintained the importance of respecting other people’s decisions and have acknowledged the difficulties involved in parenting children with this kind of a personality. I have also shared specific approaches to parenting my “ADHD”-type kids which I felt would be useful to anyone, regardless of whether they choose to medicate. I have confronted others from both sides of the aisle when their communications were disrespectful. Nonetheless, I was attacked and accused of being a troll, seemingly because I didn’t wholeheartely support the pro-med view of the world.

Don’t get me wrong - I have seen plenty of reprehensible behavior from the anti-med side as well. I just get tired of the accusations and counteraccusations. It goes nowhere. And I don’t think it is productive at all to attribute the poor behavior to people based on their viewpoint. Plenty of people that use mediation have expressed appreciation for my ideas, and others from the anti-med side have criticized me for being too appeasing. I have attempted to respect all of these different voices, but I have consistently asked for folks to tone down the rhetoric and to stick to scientific studies as our fact base, and to own our own opinions and not expect others to agree with us just because we have a particular opinion. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Believe me when I tell you, this is a bi-directional problem. And the fact that someone is feeling attacked doesn’t excuse them from being respectful, either, in my book. We are supposed to be adults here. If an international forum isn’t expected to draw a diversity of views, it isn’t much use, in my opinion. Let’s just respect the diversity and move on. And if someone is attacking you, either confront them respectfully or ignore them and ask the moderators to intervene. There is no need to bicker. Let’s get back to talking about those parenting issues that we all need help with!

Steve, you said:

“And the fact that someone is feeling attacked doesn’t excuse them from being respectful, either, in my book. We are supposed to be adults here”

I couldn’t agree with you more.

By the way, try reading through some of the posts toward the end of “Alternative viewpoints” if you think that anti-med posters aren’t being attacked as well. The whole exchange is pretty juvenile, as far as I’m concerned. I am making no apologies for any of the posters, but it should be clear that immaturity is not determined or in any way limited by personal views on medication as a potential tool for attention problems.

The attacks have all caome from the pro med side. The reason for this is they cannot dispute the facts so they attack the messenger and not the message. It happens everywhere in all walks of life.

If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance baffle em with BS.

The attacks have clearly come from both sides. Anyone that can’t see that is not reading the posts objectively. Accusing someone of child abuse or of drugging their child for personal convenience is an attack.

In fact, the statement that all attacks have come from pro (or anti) met people is in itself a generalization without substantiation, and hence, could be viewed as a general attack on pro-med people.

I have already delineated the attacks by pro-med factions, so I won’t reiterate.

We ALL need to behave! Maturity is not demonstrated by what position you take, but by how you articulate it.

I just wanted to say that I miss your participation — please, can’t we ignore the trolls and upset folks who respond to them unwisely?

Your time in posting such thoughtful responses and sharing your EXCELLENT skills and experience for parenting ‘high maintenance’ kiddoes whether dx’d or not is MUCH appreciated by many many people who lurk…we need more sharing and less dumping, so PLEASE keep dropping by in case a serious discussion or cry for help is on the board!

My name is Brian and I have a few things to say.

1) I post under my own name. There haven’t been any other “Brian’s” who have posted recently and who could have been confused with me. So all the “Brian” posts have been mine.

2) I am not “Ball” or any other poster. I use my own name on all of my posts here. I can’t prove that but I would suggest that you scrutinize the form and content of my posts and compare them to the others. I have no reason to either disown or provide artificial support for my perfectly valid statements.

3) I haven’t read a post from poster “Ball” on here yet. I suppose that handle was discontinued with a banning or somesuch. If the old “Ball” is still posting here under another guise, then he seems to have learned his lesson as I haven’t witnessed one “anti-med” post that could be fairly said to break this forum’s posting rules. Individual readers may not LIKE the content of those posts but flames they are not.

4) Steve is wrong in that he calls for adult behaviour whilst attempting to control poster opinion. Steve wants this forum to conform to what HE believes is correct. The way I see it, the forum admin laid down a set of rules that are, more or less, the same as forum rules everywhere. Basically, one poster can’t personally attack another. Good rules. Hoewever, those rules are not enough for Steve. Steve has his own ideas about rules of conduct and hopes to inflict them on us. Fortunately, Steve is limited in his power to influence this forum and has the basic two options open to all of us - stay, read and/or post (within the rules) or hit the virtual highway. Steve would probably say that the above constitutes an example of the discourtesy that he is talking about. I say that we (pro and anti whatever, all of us) must defend our freedom of expression against the likes of Steve.

5) Steve is also wrong in his middleground fence-sitting attitude. It should be obvious to any fair minded person that the personal (i.e. forum rule-breaking) attacks on this forum come from people who don’t like to hear that medicating a child for the fake disorder of “ADHD” is probably not indicated. I understand that point of view. It must be very disturbing to hear that many people know that you are medicating for your own P&Q. YTou may attack me as long as this forum’s moderators allow you to do so. It will have no effect and I promise NEVER (as I have never in the past) attack you personally for expressing your viewpoint.

6)Steve is also wronfg when he states that:

“The science is ALL OVER THE MAP, and depending what you want to believe, you can find articles promoting your position.”

That’s not true. The SCIENCE is very clear on the point that NOBODY knows why children who have been labelled “ADHD” behave the way they do. The SCIENCE is also very clear on the fact that it has never proven that “ADHD” exists as a physiological condition. The onus is clearly upon the SCIENCE to PROVE that medicating a developing brain with psychotropic drugs will produce greater long term benefits will not medicating. SCIENCE has failed to prove anything of the sort.

If you have decided to medicate your child for “ADHD”, you may “find articles promoting your position” but you won’t find SCIENCE to support it.

7) WE, parents of children with behavioural problems, know only too well that today’s misinformation can easily become tomorrow’s forced policy. I don’t ever want to be forced to medicate my child and thus, will speak out against the “norm” of medication while I can.

8) If you can’t stand the “heat” of this iddy biddy forum, shouldn’t you be getting yourself examined instead of your child. As I mentioned before, parenting is NOT for the emotionally weak. If you seriously want to help your child, face up to the discussion on here. Check out EVERY lead you are given. Shun all calls to your emotions (the desired end of anecdotal evidence). Ruthlessly sweep aside all “facts” and “findings” that are preceded by terms such as, “tend to be..” “may be…”, “doctors think that…”, ‘it’s commonly held…”, etc. Make a concerned search for the SCIENCE and form your own resolute opinion based on the facts as you have garnered them.

I can guarantee you that a search today will produce NO SCIENCE in favour of the existence of “ADHD” as a medical entity and none in favour of medication as a safe and effective option.

My personal attack on those who have decided to medicate notwithstanding the SCIENCE is simply this:

When the truth does surface, you may ONLY blame yourself for having medicated when no SCIENCE indicated that you should.

It’ll be YOUR fault unless you can produce the scientific findings that prompted you to make your decision. You have to have that piece of paper to give to your child when he asks you for it later.

Thanks for your support! I just get impatient in plowing through all the nonsense. I do want to point out that “Troll” and “non-medicating” are not synonymous. Some very offensive posts are made by people who seem to be bent on convincing us that medication is the only possible solution, and that anyone who opposes this notion is either deluded or a “troll”. Whether or not these folks should be considered “trolls” as well is a topic worthy of discussion.

I think ignoring inconsiderate posts is the way to go, but it would really help if folks from both sides were not so interested in being RIGHT, and were more interested in being HELPFUL. I am not a fan of the medical/diagnostic model, to say the least, and am very sympathetic with those who are seeking a different path. But that doesn’t mean that I expect everyone to agree with me on that point. I just want those that don’t agree to distinguish between factual arguments and their personal opinion, and to allow that there is not necessarily a “RIGHT ANSWER” that works for everyone. As I have said before, how each of us feels about the idea of medication is very much based on personal and family values and priorities, as well as what resources we have available to us. It’s not a scientific, “this is clearly the best treatment” kind of a thing. It is and will remain a controversial issue, and no amount of arguing is going to resolve it. The best thing I can think to do is for each of us to present our personal views and reasons for them in a respectful manner, and simply recognize that other people will make other choices for their own reasons, and quit judging them for doing so.

We’re all doing our best, and there are plenty of things to share that have nothing to do with medication. As I have pointed out many times, in the long run, whether or not medication is used appears to have little effect, positive OR negative. So why waste all the time talking about it? I’d rather spend our time developing ideas about how to creatively approach parenting these kids, or how to advocate for better treatment in schools, or how homeschooling can help alleviate many of the stresses our kids suffer, or any of a number of far more interesting topics. Some people choose to use medication, some don’t. Big deal. Get used to it!

Thanks again for your kind words. I am glad to know you have found my thoughts helpful. :)

Steve,

Perhaps, since you are eager to be of help, you could help me with my dilemma.

I think that since this issue involves the welfare of children and since in the USA (let’s agree that that country likes to claim the crown of being at the forefront of human rights, child rights, etc. and likes to subsequently inflict those “rights’ on other countries) only the strongest voices are heard, there is perhaps a danger that uncontrolled non-scientific spewing of the benefits of drugging a child, for the non-existent “disorder” of “ADHD”, by drug companies and guilty moms hoping to gain the hideyhole of “normalcy”, could result in laws being passed dictating the wholesale compulsory drugging of our children.

Is that an unfair conclusion? Can you guarantee me that there exists NO danger that my child could someday be the victim of a compulsory drug order issued by a government? Indeed can you assure me that these compulsory druggings are not today in force in some US states. Try www.AbleChild.org for your research.

If you CAN’T give me that guarantee can you still defend your position that attempts to limit my right to defend my child from such future state of affairs?

I hold the health and well-being of my children in just as high regard as you do things like “gittin allong” and being praised for the helpfulness of a fence-sitting attitude. Steve, am I wrong in this?

[quote=”Brian1”]Steve,

Perhaps, since you are eager to be of help, you could help me with my dilemma.

I think that since this issue involves the welfare of children and since in the USA (let’s agree that that country likes to claim the crown of being at the forefront of human rights, child rights, etc. and likes to subsequently inflict those “rights’ on other countries) only the strongest voices are heard, there is perhaps a danger that uncontrolled non-scientific spewing of the benefits of drugging a child, for the non-existent “disorder” of “ADHD”, by drug companies and guilty moms hoping to gain the hideyhole of “normalcy”, could result in laws being passed dictating the wholesale compulsory drugging of our children.

Is that an unfair conclusion? Can you guarantee me that there exists NO danger that my child could someday be the victim of a compulsory drug order issued by a government? Indeed can you assure me that these compulsory druggings are not today in force in some US states. Try www.AbleChild.org for your research.

If you CAN’T give me that guarantee can you still defend your position that attempts to limit my right to defend my child from such future state of affairs?

I hold the health and well-being of my children in just as high regard as you do things like “gittin allong” and being praised for the helpfulness of a fence-sitting attitude. Steve, am I wrong in this?[/quote]

Brian1,get off you soap box! Ritalin is a godsend for me and many mother throughout this country. I would not inflict my unmedicated kid on other children and teachers and I don’t want un-medicated monsters aroung me or my child.

I think medicating should be manditory. More kids need to be medicated not less!

Well this thread deteriorated in pure foolishness.

John

John, I do appreciate your concerns. I believe there are plenty of political agendas at work here. I just don’t think that this is the forum to accomplish political change in. And in any case, I am simply pointing out that attacking people is a very ineffective way of changing minds. Everyone here knows where I stand vis-a-vis my kids and medication. Others stand in a different place. There is a ton of false information out there, and biased studies, and downright lies. There are human rights violations going on, including giving drugs to children without full informed consent, and even using CPS to force parents to medicate their children when they are opposed to this idea. All of these are legitimate political issues that we could discuss. None of these issues are forwarded or resolved by getting into shouting matches with those that take a different view. I am arguing only for a certain amount of decorum and respect, and a distinction between opinions (to which all are entitled) and facts (which are observable and admit to possible verification by other observers). If we stick to discussing the facts, and allowing differences of opinion to exist, we might find more agreement than you think. For example, I would guess that most of the parents who choose to use medication for their children would be very opposed to enforcing it on a family through CPS or court intervention. I think most would also agree that informed consent is a principle that is important. Most of the disagreements come, in my opinion, from people’s differing views on 1) the significance of using medications for behavior issues, and 2) the level of confidence that people have in doctors’ and other professionals’ opinions about things. If a person believes, for instance, that doctors are all well-trained and reliable professionals that would never recommend something unsafe, well, their response to a recommendation from a doctor would be pretty unequivocal. If the same doctor made the same recommendation to a person (such as myself!) who was very skeptical about drugs and about the medical profession in general, he would get a very different response. So as I say, it comes down to VALUES. The folks who are having the hardest time with this are the ones that want to believe that their BELIEFS are FACTS, and that what they value is what others should value.

I think we would probably have very similar values and agree on a lot of things. I just think we need to be sensitive to the fact that others might disagree with us, and that this doesn’t make them bad people or bad parents. It is not productive to judge people’s decisions when they are making the best decisions they can with the information they have. I think it is much more effective to present new information in a non-threatening way, and to offer support to those seeking a different path. And whether or not a parent chooses to medicate their child, I have plenty of good ideas on how they CAN make a long-term positive impact on their child’s behavior and self-concept. I would not begrudge these ideas to a person simply because they make a different choice about medication.

If we focus on “informed consent” rather than “right and wrong”, we might make some progress. You can see what happens with the other approach.

Thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for expressing them respectfully. I appreciate your input. Let me know how this grabs you.

To respond to your post, Brian, I actually agree completely with your statements regarding science not demonstrating that ADHD is a disease or that there is anything wrong with a child’s brain that causes him/her to act this way, and that there is no science substantiating any long-term benefits of medicating. I also agree that the onus is on the supporters of the brain-disability theory to prove their case, and that they have failed to meet this proof, and are using propaganda to support a position that is untenable.

I am also aware that there is science to support that, as it is euphamistically put, “medication reduces the core symptoms of ADHD”, namely, makes a child less active, less impulsive, and more attentive to the proposed agenda of others. So if people put their emphasis on “reducing symptoms”, then medication is found to “work”. If the emphasis is on long-term outcomes, then it is found NOT to work.

I am also aware of some exaggerated claims by those opposing medication that are not substantiated by science. For example, I know of no definitive data that show kids on medication to be more likely to become drug addicts later in life, though individual studies have had highly variable results. This claim is often made as a reason for not using medication, and is not really substantiated by science. Neither is it shown to be true that kids on medication are MORE likely to commit crimes than those not on medication, another claim I have heard made. The reviews I have seen suggest there is no difference.

My argument against medication is that there is no substantial benefit in the long term, and there is risk of both short- and long-term side effects that are substantial and in some cases enduring (including a very small cases of heart damage or death). I see no reason to risk these things with an intervention that has no long-term benefits. I advise people to use another approach if they are open to this, and I am willing to spend a lot of time helping them do so. I am also aware of the difficulties involved in “bucking the system”, and am very empathetic to those who are involved with such struggles. I believe poor classroom design and inappropriate expectations for children are at the heart of this “disorder”, and have often referred to scientific references that suggest an open classroom environment is a much better place for these kids to learn than a standard classroom.

So I am NOT “on the fence” in any way, shape or form. But this is a very separate issue from disrespect. I anticipate that there will be strong feelings on this issue, and try to be sensitive to that fact. You don’t like being accused of being “Ball”, for example. That also happened to me, and I resented it immensely. How is it different when you accuse parents of medicating their children for personal convenience? I am sure there are some parents around who do this, but doesn’t it seem likely that there are other pressures leading people to this conclusion? And isn’t it possible that some people simply don’t feel that using medication for temporary behavior improvement is a big problem, disease or no disease? Have you ever asked people what led them to the conclusion that they should use medication? Perhaps if you were more interested in hearing about their views, they might be more amenable to yours.

I have probably offended people by some of the things I said in this post. If so, I apologize. I am simply trying to demonstrate that the fact that while I have certain beliefs, which I personally think are very much based on good scientific research, I don’t need to impose those beliefs on other people. I think it is far more effective to enter into a respectful discussion. It doesn’t mean we lack passion, or that we shy away from disagreements, or that we sweep the facts under the rug. It just means that we grant others the right to disagree with us respectfully. I grant you that right, Brian. Can you hear what I am saying, and grant the same right to me?

Steve,
Its such a pleasure to read your well thought out articulate posts.

I think you raise a very good issue - the level of trust we have with the medical community. I tend to believe in my own ability to sort out the good docs from the bad, and to make informed decisions despite the fact that I am not a doctor. I choose alternative /holistic treatments side by side with conventional medicine. I am not the type of parent who would find myself forced by a govt. agency to do anything, simply b/c I am educated, caucasian and economically empowered. Clearly there are parents without these advantages that could find themselves forced to make serious medical decisions without being fully informed.

But I would suspect that most of the parents on this board who come here looking for support and information are not being forced by anyone to medicate. They are choosing to do so after trying other ways and watching them fail . I don’t know any parent that would knowingly inflict damage to their child . Am I concerned about the long term safety of medication ? of course. Am I concerned that my son is asking for help in staying focused at school and we are running out of ideas? Yes. I am open to new ideas from anyone that has something constructive to say because the bottom line is I need to help my child.

[quote=”Steve”]. There is a ton of false information out there, and biased studies, and downright lies. There are human rights violations going on, including giving drugs to children without full informed consent, and even using CPS to force parents to medicate their children when they are opposed to this idea. All of these are legitimate political issues that we could discuss..[/quote]

Steve,

You certainly are entitled to have an opinion on these matters and to argue that your value judgments (to borrow your phrase) are the correct choice vs. those of the parents who have opted to medicate their children. If you are going to support these arguments with what appear to be factual representations, however, it seems appropriate to ask you to provide the source of those factual representations. You have urged everyone to take a respectful posture when discussing these issues, and I am trying to do so, but you have made some rather incendiary allegation. Would you please post some sort or link or give a reference to support those allegations? Its important for all of us to be able to evaluate whether we should view a particular poster’s information (and therefore his or her advice) as accurate and reliable. Thanks in advance.

Doreen

Sorry, Doreen! I have posted some references in the past on these issues. I was merely summarizing my opinions of the current state of the scientific understanding for Brian, who accused me of “sitting on the fence”. It was really more intended to show him that I have strong opinions, but that I am advocating for respectfulness. I understand that not everyone has the time to research these issues, and would be happy to provide references, but I must say I do get tired of repeating myself sometimes!

Specifically, you might want to refer to the “Review of Reviews” by A.S. Swanson, who has been a long-time supporter of medication. This appeared in “Excptional Children” in 1993. I don’t have the volume or page numbers ready to had at the moment. I’ll find them for you tomorrow. I have tried to find it on line with no luck. After reviewing all of the other literature reviews prior to that date, he concludes in this article that there is no real long-term benefit acedemically, socially, or self-esteem wise when comparing medicated to unmedicated subjects. There are other prior reviews as well, which I have cited in other posts, but would be glad to bring forth again if you wish. One was by Russell Barclay in 1978, which draws the same conclusion about lack of improved acedemic outcomes. There was an article posted on this site a while back that I referenced which reminded us of the same point. Unfortunately, it has been replaced by other material, but I did reference it in an earlier post, back in December or so.

If you are interested in the issue relating to alternative classroom environments, I can provide that as well. I personally find those reports (I think there were only two studies done) to be very hopeful for providing a potential design for an “ADHD-friendly” classroom. Let me know if you want more on that.

It is my opinion (and I am a scientist by training, having a BA in Chemistry from Oberlin College) that it is the responsibility of the scientist to prove his/her claim that ADHD results from a disease process, rather than the responsibility of the public to prove that it is not. As yet, there is no definitive test for ADHD, so it is my opinion that the case is not made that ADHD is a disease. Of course, this is a philosophical argument that others may argue differently, depending on their philosophical stance on what constitues a disease or what the responsibility of a scientist is. This is not to say that some children aren’t more active or more impulsive or less attentive by nature - certainly they are, as two of my three boys will demonstrate! But that doesn’t make overactivity or impulsiveness a disease per se. It may just be normal genetic variations that we as adults don’t like. So I am looking for some evidence that there is something structurally wrong with kids who act this way, that can be demonstrated by some physically reproducable means. And PET scans notwithstanding, there is no means to do that as yet.

As far as the question of whether ADHD is caused by a brain abnormality, I refer you to the 1998 NIH Consensus Conference report - they find that there is “no evidence” that ADHD is due to a brain malfunction. I can find a link tomorrow if you want, but I need to go home now!

These are my opinions, out on the table, with at least some references to my fact base and my philosophy. The main point I am making is, NO ONE HAS TO AGREE WITH ME!! These are just what I observe! I wouldn’t want anyone to agree or disagree with me based on what I said. I want everyone to make up his/her own mind. I am not here to convince anyone. I am just sharing my viewpoint. Feel free to disagree, and ask for more references on specific points if you are still finding them upsetting. But above all, don’t think that I am forcing my views on you. They are my views, I own them, and you are welcome to your own. As long as you respect my right to my views, I am happy to respect yours.

Thanks for being straightforward. Looking forward to your reply.

Steve,
I’m curious about what you would make of a child with attentional issues that has other comorbid , clearly neurological issues. My son is dyslexic, and although we have never seen a neurologist (but will soon…) everyone who has seen him (neuropsych, psychiatrist, pediatrician) feel that his learning issues are indeed neurologically based. He exhibits other “soft” neurological signs such as toe walking etc.

I just see his inattentiveness as part of his neurolgical/developmental profile. So it was easy for me to accept the idea that ADD, if that’s what he’s got, is also neurologically based.

I’m not arguing, just really curious about how a child like that fits into your understanding of these issues. Thanks!

Steve, your thoughts are interesting….
ADHD may be a condition just like “menopause” is a condition whose symptoms are problematic and for a long while MD’s thought hormone replacement therapy was “the answer”, so now do some MD’s see stimualnts as the answer for the SYMPTOMS of ADHD…that may be the best they can do now, and yes we may find out just like hormone replacement therapy that it wasn’t good, but it is what is known now. These endless debates as to what is right are pointless, as what is “right” for you may not be what is right for me. You will see these on lots of health boards where the answer is not clearcut(like watch waiting for prostate cancer).

It would be more interesting to see discussion of the many tools for diagnosis of behavioral conditions in children and accurate assessment of academic skills over time.

SAR, your post made me think of childbirth. Natural yes, painful yes. Epidural? Count me in. And I was going to go natural all the way. Sometimes the reality of a “condition” changes what you think you will do when its all just theoretical.

Thank you for your response, Steve. What I was specifically interested in was the support for your statement that “There is a ton of false information out there, and biased studies, and downright lies. There are human rights violations going on, including giving drugs to children without full informed consent, and even using CPS to force parents to medicate their children when they are opposed to this idea. ” Are you saying that the 1993 review by Swanson and the 1978 Barkley article provide information about false information, biased studies, human rights violations, etc.? Quite honestly, it doesn’t sound like those references would support your points, though I would have to find and read them to be certain of that. I don’t disagree with your assertion that there are no long term studies showing improved academic performance from the use of medication. There aren’t any long term studies that show medication doesn’t help either. In the absence of definitive research, parents are left to make judgment calls, as you have pointed out. I’m don’t view these judgment calls as really a matter of morals or values so much as they are a question of weighing risks and benefits based on the facts we do know and considering the facts we don’t yet know. That’s why I think it is so important to identify the basis for a claim that false information is being given or that studies are biased. Whether as a parent you believe that ADHD is valid diagnosis or you believe that it is merely pathologizing inherent characteristics, chances are you never reach the meds/no meds/alternative treatments question unless your child is struggling and unhappy. If a parent wants to do something to help that child, he or she has got to get educated about the problem and the range of potential solutions. This board is one means of gaining information, but, as I know you would agree, it would be unwise to take every assertion made here as fact. Its easy to ignore the zealots on either side of the issue because their lack of substance is apparent on the face of their message. The harder task is knowing how to evaluate those who present more reasonable messages, and knowing how to distinguish an objective presentation of fact from a subjective statement of belief when that statement is presented by a poster who appears to have some substance. That is why I have asked you to post your source information for the claim that you made regarding bias, false statements and human rights violations.

Doreen

Well, that’s a pretty big question. I was simply letting Brian know my opinion on those things, and those opinions are based on my own experience in many realms. Some of them are based on direct scientific research, and some are based on my own professional and personal observations. I have anecdotal information from any number of people regarding CPS interventions being enforced when a parent decided not to use medication. I definitely consider this an abuse of the parent’s right to choose medical care. I have also heard many stories, including a neighbor of mine who is extremely credible, of schools informing parents of the need to put their child on medication in order to have him attend school or function better in class. I consider this an abuse of the child’s right to an education, and practicing medicine without a license. I also have many, many professional experiences (I work in child welfare) where informed consent is ignored. I had a case just yesterday where a child was acting out in a manic state a couple of years back. She is 16 and was on an SSRI antidepressant. Apparently, she felt very weird on the drug and can’t really recall the details of some of the more bizarre things that she did at the time. She clearly was experiencing known side effects of the drug, but apparently, no one ever asked her how she felt, and attributed her behavior to her mental/emotional state. These behaviors clearly went away after she changed to another (non-SSRI) drug. No one in the case except for my volunteer CASA has even asked her about it, let alone informed her that such side effects can occur. She is 16 and deserves to know these things. It doesn’t appear that the foster mother knew anything about these possible effects either. Nor did the mental health professionals seem to think of this possibility. I have many more stories of this type. My opinions regarding informed consent are based on these personal experiences.

While we can disagree about how common these things are, based on my individual experience and beliefs, it is certain that they do occur. It is possible that in my passionate attempt to convince Brian to cool his jets, I may have sounded a bit hyperbolic, like such things are happening everywhere. I don’t really know how widespread these problems are, but I do know they happen, and I consider them serious violations of the rights of students and parents.

As far as the biased studies go, I will have to do a little research and get back to you with some examples. The one that comes directly to mind is the recent semi-scandal around Paxil/Seroxat, where data suggesting an increased suicide rate among children taking the drug were altered, I think by pooling the data from two trials, to make it look less like a problem. Look up David Healy or Seroxat in your browser and you will find some things about it. It is also my understanding that the FDA requires drug companies to submit two positive trials for a drug to be approved, but that any number of negative trials can be done and not submitted. So a drug might have two trials that suggest a positive effect, 8 neutral, and 5 that suggest in makes things worse, and the drug companies are only required to submit the two trials. Definitely would lead to biased results. Again, I do not have the source for this ready to hand, but I’m sure I can locate it if you wish. I also recall a lawsuit filed by a drug company against UCLA (I think) a number of years ago when they published data that the drug company didn’t want published. Apparently, drug companies can enter into contracts with colleges and universities, where the researchers get funded by the corporation, but the corporation has the right to suppress publication if they don’t like the results. That seems like a very biased plan to me!

Finally, on the issue of the long-term studies, I have to disagree with your conclusion. The studies not only don’t show any benefit, they DO demonstrate that there is NOT a long term benefit for the studies reviewed. Again, a basic scientific principle is that the researcher is responsible to show that there IS an experimental effect, and repeated attempts to show this without result leads us to conclude that there is no effect. There were a large number of studies reviewed by Swanson, and the overall conclusion was that there is no long-term effect. This doesn’t mean that a PARTICULAR child won’t have a better outcome on medication, but if there were positive changes, they were cancelled out by an equal number and intensity of negative responses. I was actually surprised to find this when I did my first research back in 1990 or so (prior to Swanson’s review), but the data were already pointing in that direction as early as 1978. I have occasionally perused the literature since that time, and haven’t found any new reviews that contradict Swanson. I think it is pretty much accepted that this is true among researchers, although this information is just beginning to become more widely known by the public.

So my opinion, like most people’s opinions, is based on a lot of things: research data, personal experience, stories I have read or been told, and my personal philosophy and beliefs. I am not sharing it as indisputable fact, but as the opinions I have come to based on what I know and believe about people, about science, about medicine. I am willing to bet that most everyone has a similar list of reasons for their beliefs. I guess the point I was trying to make was that the fact that I believe these things doesn’t mean anything about what anyone else needs to believe. I try to distinguish what I know from what I simply believe to be true, and I try to be clear about my reasons. I know that other people have widely differing experiences, which leads them to different conclusions. I totally respect that fact, and everyone’s right to draw their own conclusions. I really believe that if everyone did that we’d be fine. I guess I wanted folks to see and understand that my personal views are strong and passionate, but that I am capable of a rational discussion. I didn’t really want to have to defend every point that I made, because admittedly, many of my opinions are based on anecdote and direct experience that others don’t share. The point was, that differences of opinion, even passionately held, don’t necessarily lead to judgement of others who disagree. The problem lies not in the opinion expressed, but in judging others negatively or criticizing them when they happen to disagree with us. This doesn’t mean we can’t have heated discussions where points and counterpoints are made. It just means we don’t accuse each other of being bad people based on our position on a particular issue.

Again, I can research some of these points further if you are really interested, but I hope you are understanding that these are just my conclusions, which are constantly being updated with new data. I’d still rather talk about parenting interventions or educational strategies! I am just hoping that the vehemently pro- and anti- groups are understanding my point about respect being compatible with passion.

Thanks so much for your diplomatic approach. I find it refreshing.

Thank you for your comments, Steve. I’m glad that you decided to get back off the fence and state your opinion again.

However, i noticed that you failed to answer my most important question - that of the possibility of a future time where drugging children for being too childish becomes compulsory due to it’s wide acceptance and false advertising, on boards like this and generally.

It would seem obvious to me that the makers of Ritalin, etc., have an interest in making that future a reality. You may believe that my “uncooled jets” are battling the few misinformed mums and dads on this board but, in reality, the fight is not with the “users” but with the “pushers”. Given their financial war-chest and lobby-power, I don’t think my raised voice is anti-social.

My biggest gripe about these forums is the way the conversation many times slides into the morass of anecdotal evedence that doesn’t even usually show decent progress in individual cases. We hear of little Johnny doing well now on his new drug (after a couple of weeks) but can’t hope to follow Johnny’s history as he freaks out sometime later and is guinea-pigged on something else (this sort of thing IS more apparent, and may be better evidenced, on the Feelgood Moms forum.

The problem I have with those anecdotal exchanges is that they usually involve a “newbie” who is probably going through the first realisations of what they are up against. The “experts” then inform the newbie that drugging “worked” in their child’s case. the newbie, who was obviously seeking public “permission” to do something that they never really had any faith in, in the first place, may then go off and do it. Anyone who has the temerity to offer the conflicting advice that “ADHD” has not been shown to have any physiological basis and that drugging is therefore NOT indicated, is summarily ostracised as a troublemaker or generally bad seed.

For me the issue is cut and dried. Since no scientific eveidence exists to support the use of psychotropic drugs in developing brains, in this case, the responsible course of action of any caring parent is to err on the side of caution. To “first do no harm” as it were. Any doctor who prescribes these medications has turned his back on that maxim.

Another point that is self-evident, to my mind, is that the typical growing environments of the children now on drugs for childishness is NOT optimum. Parents HAVEN’T “tried everything”. In fact, it would seem that they have tried very little. The first thing a child needs is security. Two parents working full-time will not provide security. Being dumped into daycare from six weeks will not. Living through their parent’s divorce will not. Living hundreds of miles from extended family will not. These and many other factors can be remedied. There is no need to jump to the drug option - although it is the easiest route to take. My question to all parents of all children who have any type of problem is this: What are you prepared to do?

You say that I must curb my tendancy to criticise those who drug their children. I say that I will do so just as soon as others stop supporting people in that choice. If you are drugging your child in order to shut him up (that’s real-speak for “managing the symptoms”), with no genuine research to back up your decision to do so, then you are playing Russian roulette with your child’s life. You have no right to do that. It’s plain that Ritalin and the other potions are still at the experimental stage of development. None of their makers will give a statement of likilihood, never mind a guarantee, that they will produce longterm benefits. Since shouting out at inappropriate times is not a life-threatening disorder, should parents be offering their children as lab rats in that experiment in return for P&Q? Can one drugging parent tells us here, why they believe that Ritalin, acting on the brain in a similar but more pronounced fashion as does cocaine, WONT produce adverse longterm effects on a developing brain? Surely, you explored this before giving the drug to your child?

If not, you are guilty of child abuse, no matter whether the reason is based in parental selfishness or simple ignorance.

OK, Brian, you got me. I must offer you the chance to give me suggestions on what else you think I cando to try to help my son.

DS is 10, inattentive and dyslexic. He’s been different since he was a toddler. I quit my job when he was 4 so I could be a full time at home mom to him and my DD. All 4 grandparents, 6 aunts and uncles live within an hours drive. We see extended family constantly. My son is surrounded by a loving family.

My son has a very high IQ, but reads well below grade level. He hasn’t performed up to his intellectual ability since kindergarten - which causes him great anxiety and pain. He is not a behavior problem.

My husband and I are educated and have tried everything we can to help him. We have , over the years, provided him with occupational therapy, speech therapy and psycho therapy. We have had him privately tutored by an OG tutor , enrolled him in Lindamood Bell. He attended a social skills group for ayear. He just completed 9 months of vision therapy. There is not one piece to the puzzle that we have not tried to remediate . Each form of therapy involved work at home that I personally and lovingly have done with him.

To specifically work on his attentional issues we had him do Interactive Metronome. We also had his psychiatrist work out behavior mod. strategies with his teachers. I have personally consulted additionally with several other therapists on ways to decrease his anxiety, and help him attend better at school.

This year my entire family up and moved so that he could attend a private LD school. There are only 6 kids in his reading group. The teacher is concerned that his progress is impeded by his inattention.

We have run out of ideas. If you or anyone else has something constructive to suggest I would be delighted to consider it. And if you don’t have something positive to suggest that I would appreciate it if you would refrain from critisizing me, or any other parent, that must make the choice between medicating their child or letting them flounder for another 10 years.

to Karen N.- the other thing(not to dismiss your consideration of medication) we did as a family was to “reset” our view that our now 7th grade son had to produce up to his abilities…yes, of course we work hard with him, and expect him to do well at school, but we decided to let him set his own academic goals(which he did, nothing below a B, and good teacher comments), and we also saw that maturity really helped with his anxiety over academics. Suburban public middle school is not that hard academically(huge emphasis on organization, good behavior, turning in homework,etc. and not much emphasis on stellar academic work) and he always gets A’s. There may be a time when you need to see if “fixing” all your child’s weak areas is the goal for him, or if you can give him some time to mature.

My husband and I always say you are only as happy as your most unhappy child.

I am not trying to fix my child’s weaknesses to make him perfect, or even to make him get good grades. I know you didn’t suggest that SAR, but I think your point is a valid one and deserves a response.

I am supporting my child because he is anxious and unhappy. He can’t read things that interest him. He can’t focus when the teacher is teaching, and he misses social opportunities because he’s tuned out. He expects to go to college and graduate school, and we all know that remediation works best when a child is younger and not older. Hence the slow, steady, but unrelenting work we have done with him. Also, like many other children, his issues evolve. Things bubble up to the surface, and we consider if and how we should address them. We don’t, and can’t, address everything.

Right now my son isn’t old enough or mature enough to make that kind of decision. He’s confused himself about what is attainable.

KarenM,

First, sorry for the late reply but I can assure you that it was something outside my control. I seem to have trouble coinciding with the few “windows” when this board is functioning. That is, I keep meeting a “You’ve been banned from this forum” message (which probably doubles as a “Board out of service” message).

Let me start by answering your last comment:

“And if you don’t have something positive to suggest that I would appreciate it if you would refrain from critisizing me, or any other parent, that must make the choice between medicating their child or letting them flounder for another 10 years.”

You’re not entitled to make that comment, since I have never singled you (or anyone else) out as being “guilty” of doing something wrong (I’ve only ever said that drugging for the sole end of P&Q is tantamount to child abuse - you’ll have to judge yourself on that). All of my comments have been generalizations, which, although, admittedly, are not of much use in single cases, are as pertinent as any generalisations made in pro of drug treatments. I don’t critize you. I don’t say that drugs don’t or won’t work or are not indicated in your child’s or specific cases. I say that they ARE strong drugs, that the recipients ARE little children and that there ISN’T any evidence to support their widespread prescription. Please don’t take this to a personal level. I don’t know you or your child and I am not A doctor, let alone YOUR child’s doctor. I don’t blame parents for accepting their child’s doctor’s diagnosis and prescription in the case of ADHD, there is surely more obvious examples of the herd mentality out there than that. That fact notwithstanding however, I don’t see where I am morally wrong to continue in pointing out that no scientific evidence backs up their decision to do so. I don’t attempt to identify individual parents and expose them. There is no witchhunt. I just believe that there is always hope that parents having, in their hopelessness, opted for drugging their child, may see the light and begin to EXPOSE their children’s doctors for the guessing charlatans that they are. Just ask for the scientific evidence behind both his/her diagnosis and prescription and don’t be fobbed off with officious gobbledy-gook. Have his holiness PROVE the efficacy of his advice.

Now, what’s wrong with that, given that your child is one of the most important things in your life?

KarenM,

Now to your main question.

You appear to claim that you have tried everything to help your son and you appear to state that you have now decided that drugging is the only option. Forgive me if the above statement is inaccurate but that’s what I get from your comments.

You say that “DS” is inattentive and dyslexic and that he “has been different” since he was a toddler. I ask: Differnet than whom? Different than you were as a child? Taking just yourself as an example, I then ask: Would you have a clone of yourself? If not a clone of yourself, then who? Your husband? Some hero of yours? Who? Who should he resemble?

Or do you mean that he his uniqueness is more apparent than in most cases? Is uniqueness a good or bad quality? In the most evident arenas of “success”, is “uniqueness” a frowned upon quality?

Or do you mean that he doesn’t fit your idea of what society expects of a “drone” that hasn’t yet proven himself on the world’s stage? Maybe he is also TOO small, or TOO tall, or TOO blond, or TOO black. Maybe he is “precocious”. Maybe he is TOO something else. I suspect in your case, he is TOO inattentive and TOO slow to learn to read. Really, though, can anyone be TOO anything where the curve describing that quality will always have two shallow ends and a big bell in the middle? Is it not that you, being “educated” just can’t accept that you child may be on the wrong shallow end of an academic curve? Someone has to be slow to learn to read - perhaps your child is the world’s historical worst reader. Is that any reason to drug him?

To get back to the crux of the discussion. You listed YOUR idea of a “good” environment for “A”child. You say that you were at home with him since he was 4. What about before then? suppose you have a 10 year old who can’t forgive his early abandonment? Have you known anyone who has held grudges since an early age? Why rulke out this possibility?

You go on to say:

“My son has a very high IQ, but reads well below grade level. He hasn’t performed up to his intellectual ability since kindergarten - which causes him great anxiety and pain. He is not a behavior problem.”

I have two children, one of whom is also 10 (and not diagnosed with anything) and who apparently doesn’t give a hoot regarding her apparent lack of performance in school. The only people who seem to be caused any kind of anxiety (I won’t admit to pain) on that subject is her parents. We realise though, that being 10, she shouldn’t be expected to exhibit anxiety and pain regarding her academic performance! Are you REALLY sure that he is in PAIN over his slow uptake on reading? Are you really sure that he knows he is a slow reader. Please note that if his “pain” derives from harsh teacher comments, harsh parent comments and/or contemporaries’ giggling, then the ENVIRONMENT is at fault not him - and not his reading ability or brain. So, in short, I don’t buy that “pain” stuff. i would be worried and perhaps would seek a drug solution if my 10-year old told me that she was in pain about her reading shortcomings.

Now:

“My husband and I are educated and have tried everything we can to help him.”

I don’t know you but i know that that is a false statement. I KNOW that you haven’t tried “everything” because I know that you can’t possibly even know what “everything” connstitutes. I see, however, that your idea of “everything” leans heavily on placing your son in front of another person that isn’t you. You mention your husband briefly but not, however, in the “lovingly done therapy work”. I happen to know that a boy’s father is THE most important person in his post-infant life. Has his father “tried everything”. Also, have you examined all other alternative chemical therapies that make at least the same claims as do the druggists? If not, why not? Why will you go blindly along the psychotropic drug path when that therapy’s claims have no more substantiation than, say, my just thought of broccoli cure? Neither Ritalin nor broccoli have been proven to have any long term beneficial effect on a child’s brain - although it appears that broccoli does no harm.

You also said:

“I have personally consulted additionally with several other therapists on ways to decrease his anxiety, and help him attend better at school.”

Are you saying that these consultations and all the other “therapies” you have tried, failed miserably in helping your son? Are you admitting that all the “professionals” who have concurred with your son’s diagnosis, have turned out to be utterly useless in helping him with his problem? Are you saying that. instead of beginning to doubt the existence of a medical or physiological problem, you are prepared to take a huge chemical gamble with your son’s welfare by allowing another quack to administer his potion? Why? If all these professionals adhere to the disease theory but can’t offer solutions, shouldn’t you, as an educated person, begin to doubt the theory itself?

You asked for a solution. This is my solution. TELL your husband to drop his own life and give 100% of everything he is (outside of making a necessary living) to your son’s next six years. If results are obtained, extend the 6 years to 10 years. That’s it. Simple and terribly difficult to do, at the same time. If you are still leaning towards drugs, at least do your son the favor of collecting 100 individual success stories of other adults who came through a drugged childrhood, that you can present him with when he asks you why.

Really though, if you’re interested in your son’s welfare I’d spend the next hour digesting one of your own comments regarding your 10 YEAR OLD:

“He expects to go to college and graduate school..”

If that doesn’t smack of the academic equivalent of one of those unfulfilled pushy sports parents, I don’t know what does.

Oh Brian, you really cracked me up this morning.

I’m not surprised that you failed to provide any concrete or constructive ideas for me. But the flurry of insults and assumptions about my family are so wildly off base that you actually had me giggling.

All you could come up with is that my husband should be home more?

I didn’t abandon my son for 3 years, I had a job. And as soon as it was financially possible I stopped working - which is a huge luxury most people don’t have. My husband still works, but when he’s not at work he’s at home with his children. Your “theories” about bad parenting and pushy sports parents just don’t apply to us. Sorry.

And apparently you think its a problem that my son expects to go to college? hmmm. I suppose it would be better to crush his self esteem and just tell him now at the tender age of 10 that he can’t overcome his dyslexia and study the things that interest him, than to try to find ways to help him realize his goals? And yes, they are his goals and not mine.

When a person is very very smart and intellectually curious like my son it is frustrating and anxiety producing not to be able to read things that are of interest. It is because of his unique mind that we work on finding ways to help him. Not the other way around.

Maybe your child isn’t in real pain over her issues. Now I could throw some assumptions at you like : maybe she is and you don’t know it, or maybe she’s just not as bright as my son so it doesn’t bother her if she can’t perform at school, or maybe she’s just not as articulate about her feelings as he is, … but, hey, that would be silly for me to pretend to know what’s going on with your child. Instead I think I’ll show you the courtesy of assuming that you know your child and leave it at that.

And finally, just to clarify , for those parents looking for actual constructive help - I do feel that all of the therapies we have tried have helped my son to some degree. Some more than others. Its not a perfect science. But I’m not complaining about them, nor do I feel that because he is still inattentive that they have somehow failed. Quite the contrary - we have been blessed with a wonderful team of people who over the years have helped him master motor skills, learn to read, learn to express himself and learn to cope with his emotions. His issues ARE real and are neurological, and that’s why there isn’t one magic bullet.

And that’s why I will continue to welcome [color=red]constructive[/color] ideas from anyone who has something to offer, be it mainstream medicine or alternative therapy.

Karen,

My son is a lot like yours. He is the most intellectually curious of my three kids. He loves to learn—how many kids do you know ask to have their textbooks read to them as bedtime stories!!!??? He too talks of college and graduate school but I think it is mostly expectations born of his environment. He sees pictures in albums for example of when we were in graduate school.

I don’t know what he will be capable of and certainly don’t want to discourage him. But I also don’t want him to see himself as a failure if he really is tired from the struggle of school when he reaches college age. Afterall, he has already overcome more than many people do in a life time. So I work hard at pointing out to him and his siblings the variety of ways people earn a living—some of which do not require college education. I hope in this way to broaden his ideas of success so that in his own mind he will be successful no matter what he achieves.

And he is cute and rather charming—maybe he can catch himself a high earning woman too!!!

Beth

Hi Beth,
So funny, my son used to have us read a 5th grade biology book to him when he was 5!

I hear what you are saying, and certainly we try to demonstrate that we value many different types of people and professions, but he has been born into a family where a college education is the norm. I don’t believe that a college degree is out of reach, he just may have to get there by attending a different school than I might have assumed were he not LD. In fact, in some ways I think college could be much easier for him because he’ll have a little more leeway to choose the subjects that interest him.

The LD school he currently attends has a small high school. I believe all of their students continue on to college.

I have to say that the decision to put him in a special school has relieved alot of the pressure he feels, and does seem less fatigued.

Hi Karen,

The oldest son of the NN therapist we work with is LD. He has a similar profile to our kids. He went to a community college for three years and then away to a regional school where he maintained a B average. Much to his mother’s surprise, he then opted to go to graduate school. I have met him—he was sitting on the porch reading a very thick novel!!!

So with proper remediation and development many things are possible.

Beth

off topic, but I’m feeling quite optimistic this morning and your post beth made me think of this…

DS is supposed to read for 15 minutes every night as per his reading teacher. Last night he enjoyed his book so much he read for 45 minutes!!! this is a major break though.

Karen,

That is wonderful!! We still are not there but last night my son was reading Harry Potter well at nine pm when I made him go to bed. He reads some and then I read some. He wouldn’t be able sustain it for 45 minutes like your son (still his biggest problem at this point). What was interesting is he practically collapsed at 8:30 after doing spelling (the words are getting too hard for him) but recovered after I had read a couple pages of the chapter. In other words, reading is now getting easier and more automatic for him.

Maybe I will see that thick novel yet someday. I know from his intense listening to books on tape that he loves stories as much as his book worm sister.

Beth

Beth and Karen

Just wanted to tell you how great your sons’ reading progress sounds

I know you’ve been waiting for this for a long time(not to mention the work you and your children have put in to get there)

I don’t know how old you ladies are, but I do think many colleges have changed from back in my college years. Back in the 70s(gulp) it was a small % of folks who went to college and they tended to be those who learned easily

Im taking Spanish 101 at the local cc(an exceptional one, BTW) There are so many points for participation and homework! One quiz can be dropped, etc, etc.

DH took an accounting class there as well and had the same experience.

It may not be easy to get an A but Id say it would be impossible to NOT pass these classes if you put forth decent effort

With degrees needed more nowadays, I think schools are leaning more towards rewarding hard work than rewarding knowledge

Our instructor says his class is hard for someone proficient in Spanish to take because they HAVE to do all the little stuff to get a decent grade. Perfect scores on exams arent going to do it

In my day, instructors could care less about attendance and participation-it was all about the test grades. If you could skip class and still pull an A on the final, you had an A.

I see my middle, bright neurotypical son experiencing this in HS as well. Class assignments have such high point value, failing to turn one in can easily wipe out his A

So, while I don’t think a degree is necessary for success, I DO think it is attainable for our guys

Beth, let me clarify. he’s reading very simple books - zack files and the like. But the fact that he’s enjoying it enough to keep reading on his own, despite his extremely slow pace, is a big psychological change. My husband is still on Harry potter duty - he reads to him every night what ever his peers are currently reading.

thanks marycas -

I agree with you about college. I also know that some very prestigious schoosl (including some ivy league) have LD programs. My son will certainly need accomodations such as extended time on tests, but I dont’ see why he won’t be able to get through college if he wants to. He’s certainly intellectually capable of handling grade level material - its just the processing of the information that is difficult. I can picture him in a lecture with a tape recorder so he can listen again later with his superior auditory skills.

Karen,

I read 500 plus pages of the latest Harry Potter book to my son before he started reading it!!! It took our latest PG intensive and large print edition before he could read it. And even now, he can’t sustain it—so he reads a few pages and then I read one.

I know your son isn’t reading at the same level yet but what he does have is enjoyment of what he can read. My son will not read independently for pleasure. So I too think your son has made a big leap psychologically. The skills will follow.

Beth

marycas,

The question will be: Can my son be organized enough to get all those assignments done!!

Beth

Beth-

From your lips…

My DH has read every single harry potter book, at least half of lemoney snicket, and Eragon to my DS. its a pleasure but we sure will be happy when he can read it himself!