ADHD/Memory Testing

… for instance, when somebody does fine on the “information” subtest (long term general info), but bombs the digit span (spew back numbers) and/or arithmetic (file numbers in short-term memory and do quick calculations), it’s a red flag. And even if that ‘info’ score is on the low side… that can be a kiddo who hasn’t put the stuff in long-term memory. If things like Similarities are up there, I know the kiddo sees verbal connections. (A high Similarities and not-as-good Vocabulary really announce this.)
There are also kids who are “big picture” thinkers, or who have organizational troubles, who have to be taught to make connections between teh facts they’re learning or it’s like an endless stream of nonsense (it’s a lot easixer to remember 2 4 6 8 10 than 2 6 5 3 5 … *if* you recognize the pattern).

My son tested very poorly on information and they said he had a long term memory deficit. He scored gifted on vocabulary so I guess it is as you say, big picture, needs to connect things to something. He also gave some creative answers, as he is prone to do. A dozen is 13 as in baker’s dozen. The smart alec told me later, “Well I wasn’t wrong.”

I also found it strange that his sequencing deficit was not parsed out of the numbers. The information questions he got wrong had a sequencing component. Anytime he is asked questions about the months of the year, “What is the month before June?” etc…. he just would have no idea.

He could name the planets and tell you all the facts that relate to them. He could tell you where he left things, he remembers exactly word for word things the teacher said in class. I can remember when he was 2 he could name every instrument and tell you the difference between a bass and cello.

What is the test that finds this info out and seperates sequencing from memory?

This was an important issue because after I addressed his sequencing he improved in many areas. I wouldn’t have known to address this specific deficit from those tests.

Thank-you. Makes sense - aligns with her test scores. Here’s her WISC comparison:

1999 2003
(No Meds) (Meds)
SS %ile SS %ile
Arithmetic 10 50 9 37
Digit Span 7 16 11 63

Similarities 16 98 12 75
Information 13 84 13 84
Vocabulary 14 91 14 91 (she has always been a talker w/ great vocab.)

If I remember correctly, three years ago the low digit span and no phonemic awareness (sound blending and sound symbol) is why we sought private Orton reading tutoring for her.

Is the comparison fair - medication/no medication? Does the WISC say that with meds, memory remains weak(er) but she is somewhat on a level playing field now?

I also never understood her Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning scores - dd did 84th %ile in story recall but ‘borderline’ (?) in delayed recall and recognition. Do you know if borderline meant too low to score? Those are old scores (1999) - the test was never repeated.

I’m not sure what/if to do with this. I just hate the idea of a potential worst case scenario - dd struggling through school with the “that’s just her ADHD, not a special ed issue” thing. OTOH, I don’t know of or think they could do anything about it either. Any suggestions?

Hi—I peeked in tonight and happened to read this post. If I’m getting the gist of it, you are thinking about WISC scores with/without medications over a span of at least a year (and maybe three)… Well, you also had a reading intervention, OG. The newest fMRI research is demonstrating that phonemic awareness tasks actually rewire the brain…so there’s a second and powerful variable besides meds/no meds. Now you have two powerful variables so how do you know which is responsible for the increased score? Well, you can’t know for sure. Similar situations to yours are why we don’t know more about med affects for ADHD. Those darn variables are hard to isolate when people live normal lives and do things that help kids.

Hello to all. I’m working hard. Doing reevaluations. Finishing transition plans. Working on graduating some kids. Sometimes, though, I just have to peek in for a minute.

Susan, we’ll be very glad when you can be here more often! You are a respected voice on this board and we need you! By the way, I referred someone to that CC near you for the LB training and they are registered!

Janis

For others who will ask:

Contact Dr. Susan Clark at Longview Community College in Kansas City, MO
for a summer course (about ten days-two weeks) in Lindamood-Bell method. Website: http://kcmetro.edu/home.asp?tab=1&list=2
You’ll look for Read 199 as the course number.

Longview is part of the Metro Community College System and Dr. Clark has a reading clinic there where students can do practica after they’ve begun studying Lindamood. They also use Seeing Stars with clinic students. It is awesome!

Looking forward to some time soon…

„

Thank-you!!! Your information gives me hopeful confidence that dd will continue progress/success. I saw the meds make a tremendous impact but am ecstatic that the OG was a lot more powerful/permanent than I thought.

When we started this “journey”, one of the constants in my research said early intervention gives kids with whatever issues the best possible chances for success. There’s a fairly new piece of reputable research out that suggests meds help “rewire” the brain long term (probably said somewhat incorrectly). While it may be impossible to isolate variables, I’m happy about the end result (maybe some permanent “1+1=3” happened?).

Three years ago, my thinking was chances are dd won’t outgrow ADHD and it certainly posed major school issues for her so minimize/eliminate reading/writing problems as early as possible. DD was blasted with early intervention - OHI/resource room, supportive pull-outs, (initially begrudgingly) ADHD meds and private Orton + writing tutoring. I care less about test scores but love that she became a voracious reader - a lifelong advantage.

Breaking 4+ years of paranoia, hyper-vigilance and advocacy is difficult. This info. gives me permission to breathe a bit easier and let my guard down a little. I LOVE this board. So many great knowledgable people. Thanks again.

I just recently gave my students the CTOPP test and it gave me
some valuable information. They were doing great in blending and
segmenting real and non-real words, but their deficit was in memory
for digits and rapid naming.

I began immediately researching how to help them with their
memory skills.

I found a wonderful website www.icando.org and now I know
that I can help them improve their memory. I have already seen
positive results in just 2 weeks.

BE

BE,

I went to that site and thought it was very interesting. It was a little light on specifics.

Are you familar with some of the other programs that are discussed on here like brain gym (exercises that get the whole brain working together), audiblox, PACE (cognitive and processing) etc. Is this program like any of these or a combination of these.

I also don’t understand what they mean by metabolic issues. Is this diet, do they do testing for magnesium levels, lead testing etc..

Thanks for any information you can provide.
It sounds promising and I agree with their philosophy that you have to get at the underlying causes.

Linda,
The brain is just fascinating!! I am a novice at this. I’m just learning.
But if there is even a possibility of helping my students, I will try it if I can
(money permitting).

No, I haven’t tried those you mentioned. For my dyslexic students,
I use the Herman Method (my school’s official dyslexia program) and would recommend it highly.

I use the Herman Method in conjunction with Reading Reflex with
my Title 1 students and have had wonderful results.

Diet? I am not familiar with the info - but it does sound interesting to me.

I am working with my students on improving their “memory of
digits” at the present time. “Chunking” of numbers is recommended in
increasing their short term memory. So I am making up my own lists
of numbers ( 3 sets of 2 numbers such as 23, 98, 47), 3 sets of 3 numbers,
3 sets of 4 numbers, 3 sets of 5 numbers ect and have the students
repeat them back to me. Some of the students have already increased
their memory from a “strong 4 digit memory” to a “strong 5 digit memory”.

I am considering buying for my school next year a CD on attention and
memory. You might want to check it out at

www.agsnet.com do a search on memory

The Attention and Memory Volume 1 CD is $229 for single-use.
It looks very promising.

I began my research by going to yahoo.com and searching
for info. on short term memory and long term memory. I have a lot of information to go through and decipher.

BE

BE,

There is software called BrainBuilder which works on auditory and visual sequential memory:

http://www.advancedbrain.com/bb_intro.html

Janis

I just want to say you are an amazing teacher. Thank you for doing what you do.

Yes, the brain is amazing. I have seen my son’s brain change over the past few years.

The exercises you are describing are similar to audiblox except they use blocks instead of symbols that must be memorized.

Vision builder has a similar exercise with letters that the child has to see memorize and then find in a list. It gets progressively harder as they can remember first 3 then 4 then 5 letters. It also works on processing speed as you can shorten the time the child gets to look at the letter.
It also has a exercise to automate left and right and has some nice text to read using a moving window that you can speed up or slow down. I think it is more useful for the child that can read but is slow. I do use the memory piece and the left/right exercises with my 4 year old.
It would be a great program in a classroom because the child can work on it on their own with just a little guidance.
It is only $45.

Vision builder has increased my older son’s reading speed and since doing it he seems to have a more flexible thought process. Hard to explain, he just is better at figuring out what the math word problems mean and thinking through a problem with a strategy. I can’t say for sure it is this program because it could also be vision therapy that has helped to accomplish some of this.

Thanks, Janis. Sounds like a good program. Cheaper to.

I’ll keep this in mind. Thanks again.

BE

Linda,
Do you have a web address for the vision builder?
Thanks.
BE

///

It is sold through developmental optometrists. We got ours through the optometrist’s office.
It seems like they sell it from this site. You would have to call.

It is alot of program for the money.

Thanks Leah - still dancing.

I want to correct/clarify one of my statements. The recent ADHD meds research said that the brain volume/matter of ADHD kids treated with meds over time was comparable to the size of non-ADHD’ers brains. But non-treated ADHD’ers brain volume remained smaller.

So meds do affect some sort of long term change.

But what brain volume specifically does, I haven’t a clue. This stuff is so confusing to understand.

d, can you tell me where you read about the medicated ADHD kids brains being larger than non-medicated ADHD kids?

I would like to read it. Thanks

Linda

Hi Linda F,

Thanks for mentioning the vision builder program. I downloaded the demo and it is quite interesting.

When I did the exercise in which you have to remember letters, I noticed that instead of saying them out loud, which is a compensatory mechanism I use for memory, I actually was remembering them without doing that. It seemed like I was chunking them, which usually I find quite hard to do. Is that just the placebo effect or did your son have similar experiences?

I am going to think about it whether I want to buy it or not but so far, I like what I see.

PT

My son maxed out the program memorizing the letters. He was able to do 10 random letters at the slowest speed (which is still pretty fast.) The computer stopped there. I have to try it again to see if it even goes any higher and also try him at a faster speed. I couldn’t get past 7 and neither could my husband.

My son thought this was just so funny that he beat us by so much.
I don’t know why he could do this. It might be the other therapies he has done. He doesn’t do as well with another exercise that uses words but is still pretty good. He does have a very good memory.

I found it easiest to remember them by trying to hold a picture of them in my memory and then looking for that picture in the list. There is no way you could do it by saying them out loud. It is too fast. I also like that you really have to focus.

I told my son to make a picture of them in his mind and I think that is what he does.

I have noticed that his thinking is more fluid recently. Hard to explain. I just see it in math. I downloaded the Texas state test for third graders that Nancy was kind enough to post. I was surprised at what he could do.

We have been doing vision builder alot.

Linda — I’m trying to remember what age your son is — I think 11? Well, first of all you’ve done all these vision and memory programs; second you’ve taught him how to really read and now you are reaping the benefits; and now he is in the brain growth spurt of early adolescence and, with the background you’ve given him, he’s starting to blossom out all over. You may find that you now have trouble keeping up with him. Three cheers, and just remember you’re still the parent and the responsible adult so rein him in when needed.

Hi Linda,

Thank you for your replay. Hmm, memorizng 10 letters in a row at the slowest speed? Don’t think I’ll hit that but kudos to your son for what he has done.

I am glad that vision builder has helped him and it is so reasonable unlike some of those other popular programs.

PT

Children in my groups often come to school with WISC tthat have been completed by outside therapists that their parents have taken them to. As a LST I know that the test gives valuable information. i always read the test, but admit that i usually concentrate very much on the recommendations listed by the therapists.

I fail to understand the significance of the subtest and the relationship between some of them. I usually need to get the school guidance officer to provide her insight.

Can anybody give a simple,but practical explanation of the above and the points that I should be on the lookout for.

Willing to learn

Ellie

Victoria,

He is 9. I can definitely see me not being able to keep up with him in the future on just so many levels.

He is such a great kid, I know he will use his powers for good.

Thank you for your kind words.

Linda

Two good sites which explain the WISC subtests:

http://www.patoss-dyslexia.org/epreports.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1580/sped/wisc.html

Janis

Welcome to the world of the parent of the gifted/overactive kid. Hang on to your hat, have fun, and remember to keep control — he still neeeds a parent.