Anyone work with Native American kids?

I have worked with some Native American kids (are you sure we aren’t clones?)
Native American languages vary widely, as far apart as Finnish and Chinese, so you can’t generalize at all. However I *just happen* to have worked with some Dene people who just happen to be close cousins to the Navajo. (In the fifteenth century the group that became the Navajo got horses and moved south, while the Dene stayed in/ moved to the north woods)

The Dene language sounds very “soft” to English speakers, and we feel that the people mumble a lot and are very non-expressive. The girls and women in particular tend to talk behind their hands, which drives people of my culture nuts as in *our* terms of reference that is exceptionally rude.

As far as sounds, the consonants are a problem, same problem I had with my Chinese students: English carries most of its meaning in the consonants — consider speed-writing, where you omit vowels but can still read quite well. In languages that use a rich vowel structure and carry meaning in the vowels, people don’t learn to pay attention to the fine details of consonants. This means s and sh, th and f may be substituted, final r and l and medial w may be omitted, etc. If you hear the student speak with this kind of sound substitution/omission, you will probably (cross that out — definitely) need to teach some articulation and listening discrimination along with the reading.

A much bigger problem is the cultural expectation. Some cultures do not like people to push themselves forward, and so they speak softly, refuse to volunteer information, cover their mouths, etc. Many Native American cultures also stress *not* expressing emotions — holding the face and voice still is a sign of maturity. In English culture you have to push forwards somewhat or you get left out, and you have to put some emotion in your voice or people think something is wrong. One thing I noticed particularly with the Dene kids was trying to get them to write; as far as I could figure, culturally old people told stories and kids listened, so the kids were very embarrassed to try.
Students have to learn new cultural habits as well as new words, and to change between cultures as well as languages.

This is particularly a problem where there is a language divide: Grandma speaks her native language, mother had not-very-good schools in English and speaks both languages but neither extremely well; child speaks English and watches English TV. This would be a disaster in any family, but is especially damaging in Native American cultures where traditionally Grandma took a very large part in child-rearing. In families like this I recommend that they ignore the school system’s advice (what good has it done them so far?) and teach/speak the native language at home, particularly insisting that the child speak it back, refusing to hear any requests in English. You and the school can teach English, but only the family can be a family and teach the cultural background. Better to have to distinct cultures and languages than a sort of muddle.
You may or may not have the problem this badly, since the Navajos are a generation or two ahead of the northern Indians here in educational opportunities (But if great-grandma is still in the picture, this applies).

>I have worked with some Native American kids (are you sure we aren’t clones?)

Well that thought ran thru my mind, and then I remembered that you are a mathematical whiz. :-)

>Chinese, so you can’t generalize at all.

I realize, but you know the world is a strange place where two net buddies could well actually serve the same population. :-)

> However I *just happen* to have worked with some Dene people who just happen to be close cousins to the Navajo. (In the fifteenth century the group that became the Navajo got horses and moved south, while the Dene stayed in/ moved to the north woods)

That’s interesting. I was on the web last night and looked up Navajo language and culture and yes the Navajo’s refer to themselves as “Dene”. It means, roughly translated, “the people” or something similar.

>The Dene language sounds very “soft” to English speakers, and we feel that the people mumble a lot and are very non-expressive. The girls and women in particular tend to talk behind their hands, which drives people of my culture nuts as in *our* terms of reference that is exceptionally rude.

Oh gosh, well mom and grandmother are quite assertive. They said things about the school not teaching him and so on, which as far as I could tell is true!

>As far as sounds, the consonants are a problem, same problem I had

Hmm, that’s interesting. I thought, “”I wonder if the vowels are going to be a problem as they are so pronounced. It’s like he is overemphasizing vowel sounds and elongating them— at least that’s how it sounds to me.
I thought, I wonder if the vowels are going to be odd in some way, like he will say /a/ for /u/ and /e/ or something like that. It did occur to me that some consonants might not exist or something like that. But not quite what you are talking about.

>meaning in the vowels, people don’t learn to pay attention to the fine details of consonants. This means s and sh, th and f may be substituted, final r and l and medial w may be omitted, etc. If you hear the student speak with this kind of sound substitution/omission, you will probably (cross that out — definitely) need to teach some articulation and listening discrimination along with the reading.

Oh this is very definitely the type of info I was looking for!!!
It’s going to my random file collection. :-)

>A much bigger problem is the cultural expectation. Some cultures do not like people to push themselves forward, and so they speak softly,
refuse to volunteer information, cover their mouths, etc. Many Native American cultures also stress *not* expressing emotions — holding the face and voice still is a sign of maturity.

Yes he is what we would call “shy”. He doesn’t say a lot. I think of him as “mature” for his age. Very hard working and not prone to goofing off. THough in a tutoring situation (vs a classroom say) this is an advantage.
I would imagine in school this is a problem, unless the school in question is more culturally sensitive.

>This is particularly a problem where there is a language divide: Grandma speaks her native language, mother had not-very-good schools in English and speaks both languages but neither extremely well; child speaks English and watches English TV.

This is definitely the situation. He speaks very little Navajo. However mom and grandma were talking back and forth in Navajo during our initial meeting. He did tell me that some nonsense word we used was a word in Navajo but he didn’t appear offended.

> This would be a disaster in any family, but is especially damaging in Native American cultures where traditionally Grandma took a very large part in child-rearing. In families like this I recommend that they ignore the school system’s advice (what good has it done them so far?) and teach/speak the native language at home, particularly insisting that the child speak it back, refusing to hear any requests in English.

How do you make that type of recommendation? I think it is sound but I don’t know the family that well, just for the tutoring. I called up to cancel for a couple days and the mom seemed sort of defensive. I had left a message and she said “I don’t know why you called.” Once I called she was ok about it. This wouldn’t be the typical Hispanic or Anglo response. They expect calls from school or the tutor. I would worry about giving advise as an Anglo. They have come not to trust us and for a damn good reason!

>You may or may not have the problem this badly, since the Navajos are a generation or two ahead of the northern Indians here in educational opportunities (But if great-grandma is still in the picture, this applies)

Well not sure about great grandma. Grandma was about my age I figure so I wouldn’t be surprised if she still was.

BTW, I read something rather interesting. It said that for Navajos that language was a sacred thing. They gave the example of someone talking about English and compound words, ie you take two words and make a new word out of that. An elder said, “Stop this blasphemy, only God creates words”!

—des

Des — some of your points —

assertiveness — as in many eastern cultures young women are expected to be totally in the background, but older women are matriarchs. I guess his mother thinks she’s mature enough to take charge, good.

holiness — as I understand it from reading, this is a big issue with Navajos. Like many cultures, they don’t divide religion off from everyday life; life *is* religion and vice versa, or else what good is the religion? Yes, this means stepping very warily to avoid unintentionally giving offense. Since I often miss these cues, also being very quick with an apology.
Try to listen very carefully for clues. And wait a little longer for the other person to speak.
Navajos believe everything is given by the gods, the world and its animals and its water and the language and everything else. This is part of the culture, and because of having to defend it against the overwhelming forces from outside, people may be quite defensive.

advice — well, I tend to chat for a while with parents, especially after tutoring sessions. Lots of things come up in this informal chatting. Once we get a relationship of trust going, that they know I am on their side and not a spokesperson for the school system, I get all sorts of confidences, and requests for advice. Advice to hang on to their own language and culture, and to *not* believe advice from ignorant people who know (and want to know) only English, shouldn’t be offensive.

phone messages — this can be an issue because so often you only get a call for bad reasons. And people may not relay messages correctly. If the phone is shared by an extended family, messages can be a mixup. This should improve if you can get past the first hurdles and get that relationship of trust going and work out communications.

I saw him again today and I have somewhat changed my mind, his problems appear more severe than I thought and there is more of a problem with, what do you know, consonants! I may take him thru a little LiPS, not the whole thing– maybe like LiPS lite. :-)

>holiness — as I understand it from reading, this is a big issue with Navajos. Like many cultures, they don’t divide religion off from everyday life; life *is* religion and vice versa, or else what good is the religion?

Well good point yes. And thanks for the suggestions.

>advice — well, I tend to chat for a while with parents, especially after tutoring sessions. Lots of things come up in this informal chatting. Once we get a relationship of trust going, that they know I am on their side and not a spokesperson for the school system, I get all sorts of confidences, and requests for advice. Advice to hang on to their own language and culture, and to *not* believe advice from ignorant people who know (and want to know) only English, shouldn’t be offensive.

Well it will take awhile to be sure. They certainly are not the stereotype that we have around here that Indians just don’t like or automatically hate whites, which I would understand honestly. But otoh, I don’t know that they trust me. I guess I sort of will have to trust my guts as to when I can bring things up. I certainly agree with your statement. Read a sad statement yesterday on how Navajo language is just not faring so well. Seems that kids are not speaking it.

>phone messages — this can be an issue because so often you only get a call for bad reasons. And people may not relay messages correctly. If the

That could be it. I guess they have also had pressure from school on putting their kid in special ed. They are opposed to this and maybe there is some suspicion or fear about me as I am a teacher who might be about to say something like I can’t help their kid. They seemed very relieved that I was just going out of town.

>phone is shared by an extended family, messages can be a mixup. This

Nah these folks have cel phones and so on.

—des

Cell phones, eh?

You urban southerners, with a cell phone tower on every corner, indeed.

Around here they only build towers in the populated areas so the coverage sort of follows the main highways. Go any distance afield and oops, phone is a fancy paperweight.

This was kind of interesting when I broke my rib on a canoe trip, seven miles from the car and thirty miles from the nearest working phone …

Oh, gosh, you oughta come on down… everybody walks around this college town with a phone in their ear. Used to be hearing somebody carrying on a conversation by themselves walking down the road got funny looks :-) Never forget the first time soembody in the bathroom stall next to me was talkng away…

Don’t get me wrong, we are *very* high-tech, the highest per-capita phone and internet use in the world, here in the city; just that the population drops off mighty fast once you leave the city.

You’re right, we’ve got the silly towers everywhere — but it gets dull out in the cornfields! Let’s see, did you use the phone as a rib splint?

Cornfields? That’s the south too. :D
North of here we have, forest, lakes, and mountains. Absolutely gorgeous, but very empty as soon as you step off the road.

No, modern medical thought is not to splint ribs, just lie there and wait. :x :( And I don’t do painkillers. :evil:
The problem was balancing in a tippy canoe for seven hours and then driving home for three. Then four months of enforced immobility. :cry: