Questions about school policy and legality...

Why do you need report cards and transcripts to enroll them in public school next year? You probably need to have birth certificates and something to prove residency in the town/city. Yes colleges and universities do not send transcripts until tuition is paid; perhaps private school is in the same category. Private schools are paid for by tuition unless you qualify for a scholarship-why would they let students attend for free-that’s what public school is for. Is there a local/state advocacy parent group or even your child’s therapist that could advise you on the transcript issue??

I needed the transcripts from the public school my daughter was attending in Queens, to enroll her in the Catholic school she now attends in West Virginia. I thought it worked both ways. I do know that I will need their birth certificates, social security cards, proof of residency, etc.

I don’t expect my daughters to go to school for free, and they haven’t, except for the one year my daughter attended public school. Whenever I’ve been behind on my tuition, I have actually worked at the school, like serving lunch in the cafeteria and cleaning, until I became caught up.

If I don’t need their transcripts, great, but I have a feeling that you do need them. Doesn’t the new school need to know the child’s academic history? I will call one of the prospective schools I have in mind and ask.

I posted this here in hopes of getting some answers from some knowledgaeble people, and I thank you for yours. If there were a parent advocacy group here, I would have gone there first, yes? I would have gone there for a lot of other things too.

I will ask my daughter’s therapist, but I have a feeling she won’t know the answer.

That was me above, forgot to log in…

SAR,

The public school DOES need the transcripts from every school they have ever attended. Just got off the phone with them.

Also, proof of address, birth certificate, immunization records from the day they were born, and social security numbers.

I’m not suggesting that I should be allowed to skip without paying the school. My question was, is it LEGAL for a grade school to withhold transripts due to tuition not being paid by the time the children need to start the new school. I do not think it can possibly be legal for the kids to become *truant*, because of payment issues, in a primary school. One would not be “truant” in regard to college.

Cathryn —

There are public schools, private schools, and sort-of private schools that get public funding.

The public school *has to* take your child in, at any time of the year, if you show up at the door ad have your health records straight. They can refuse you only: if you don’t legally reside in their district; if your child doesn’t have the immunizations to protect public health; or if your child has been proved in court to be a danger to others and legally expelled (and even then a year later some kids get back in).
The public school also has to keep certain records and make these records available to you.
This is all paid for by your taxes and therefore you have certain rights, quite a lot of them.

A truly private school, independently funded, is a whole different ball game. They can set any rules they want and as long as you have signed a contract and they play by their own rules, you are stuck. If they do not apply the rules equally you can sue, but since so far you have been given extra leeway to pay, this doesn’t seem to apply to you. Yes, they can put a child out at any time; it is then your responsibility to put the child into the free public school so the child is not truant. Since the free public school is available, no matter how bad you may think it is, the private school has no responsibility whatever over your child’s non-attendance.
Being realistic about this, the school has to pay the teachers and the electricity and the heating bill and maintain the building, and if they are a truly private school with no government aid, non-payment of tuitions is going to put the whole system into trouble, so the school does have to draw a line.
Records are a trickier issue. I have seen even public schools withhold records (my own daughter’s) until all textbooks and other school properties are returned. I don’t know how long they can maintain this withholding, but certainly long enough to be a nuisance. As long as your children are in the school, they don’t formally need those records so you would have a hard time making a legal case to have them released. If you withdraw from this school and go to another, then you could try to demand the records legally (or threaten to).

Private schools that get public funding are in a grey area. They can still refuse you for non-payment, but not for any other reason. Records are a complicated issue as above.

The public school can NOT refuse you entry whether or not you have those records. You MUST have vaccination records, but other than that they cannot refuse you. They can nag you about them. they can bug the kids daily, but they can’t shut the door. Nor can they take any silly punitive actions like putting the kids back in Grade 1; they have to find an appropriate placement. But they can’t be required to provide any special services without proof.

Other private schools can do as they wish. Most of them are going to be a lot more worried about your ability to pay (because they have bills too) than about the records.

Your best move would be to find a decent rural area with low living costs and a passable public school.

Thank you, Victoria.

I DO have all the immunization records that can be sent straight to the school, or given to me by our pediatrician to give the school, whichever is the proper procedure. That is absolutely not a problem.

It will very likely be a public school (actually 2, one child in primary, the other in intermediate), as I have come to the understanding this year that we need all those rights that we are entitled to, and I of course have paid taxes all my life.

We cannot wait to get the heck outta here. I was thinking more along the lines of a place where I can find a good job, so I can adequately support my two daughters. As God is my witness, I haven’t been able to do it here. And NOT for lack of trying.

More thoughts about this

There have been court cases in the US about the issue of who can go to a public school. Some of these cases involve migrant workers and illegal immigrants.
Migrant workers’kids may be in several schools over the course of the year and have a very hard time carrying over the school records. I saw one news report about a new program in which the kids are each given a small red backpack and a set of record forms to carry with them, but this hasn’t been universally implemented. Anyway in all the cases that have gone to court, the decision has been that yes, the children must attend school, and the district where the parents are working has to take them in.
The illegal immigrant issue is a hot button, an awful lot of stirring up mud on the nightly “news”, but again the decision at least in California and a couple of other states is that school age children have to be in school and the school has to take them, or otherwise you would be developing a totally uneducated underclass, and the dangers of this are even worse.
So if the courts have ordered the public schools to take in even kids who have been brought to the country illegally (obviously not the children’s own fault!) certainly the school cannot refuse a properly documanted resident.

One thing, if you move, you have to get proof of residence. A legal lease if you can get one; a *notarized* letter from the friend or landlady if you rent a temporary room. Sometimes bills addressed to you at that location are accepted but this is an option, not the legal form. School districts are defined by territory so this one is vital.

Schools sometimes — often — invent rules that are not really there (examples on many other threads on this site!). The secretary who is giving you a hard time was told once many years ago to do things by a certain policy, the boss who invented that policy out of whole cloth is decades gone, but she is still enforcing it as the law and the prophets written in stone. Try, try to grit your teeth and be polite (I who say this am having a running battle with a hospital clinic secretary who thinks I can reschedule my life on her say-so and explain forty years of chronic disease to a new doctor every visit but that’s another story :evil: ) and stay on as good a footing as possible, but if she refuses to move without school records go above her head in the chain of command, first the principal, then the school board member for your district, then the superintendent, then the state office of education, then your state representative, then the secretary of education for the state… Usually by the time you get to the superintendent he knows a little about the law and will do at least the minimum. (I’m going over the secretary’s head to the director of the clinic too)

They still can give you a hard time about paperwork, but they cannot refuse to educate children and they cannot take out their frustrations on those children. Go up the chain of command if they do.

By the way, as they say in England, the penny dropped today. You had a private Catholic school, presumably with a not-too-high tuition. There were several parents having trouble paying. This means the school was having a budget crunch of its own.
This can be part of the reason for poor-quality teachers and counsellors and for delayed photo day (the company demands a large deposit.)
Some private Catholic schools hire teachers who have been forcibly retired by age from other schools or from businesses, and often these folks have many years of good teaching left in them and lots of experience and knowledge under their belts; they can be gems.
Years ago there was a ready supply of monks and nuns but these sources have dried up and just a few elderly holdovers are left, often very tired and counting the days to retirement.
But other people may get hired because they couldn’t get a better-paying job in a public school. They may be poorly qualified, they are often inexperienced and just waiting to get out, and they may be bitter about what they see as a bad deal.
I tried to teach for a short period of time in a US Catholic school (we have a very different system up here) and both budget and teaching staff there were a real mess. I met the man who took the job after I left and he said he felt like Galileo trying to bring science to the middle ages. He also passed every single kid in the class, even the almost-illiterate, under pressure to pass them and because he had also decided it was a lost cause.

No place is perfect, but you may be pleasantly surprised (I hope so) by the teaching quality and funding and programs available in a good public school.

I’m like you - I like my child’s records complete and up to date. Crazy me- I think they may help the next teacher. Ha, Nobody reads them!! There are lots and lots of kids who show up for public school without them. They take kids whose ‘records are on the way’ every day.

Frankly, transcripts really don’t mean much until you are transferring credits for high school graduation. Then you have to document the credits.

As for the private school thing-many private schools do withold records until payment. Many simply yank the kid out of class at the payment deadline which is always well into the term and don’t wait til report card time.

Cathryn, do you have a contract with the school? If its an independent school then you should, and it should spell out all the possible scenarios from your situation.

We recently moved our daughter from private to public, and they did not require or even ask for her records from the old school. Just proof of residency and age.

You may want to try the personal approach. We had already made a deposit on this year for our daughter, and then ended up moving away so that our son could attend a special school. Because this first school failed him. We sat down quietly with the principal and appealed to them on moral/ethical grounds to return our deposit. Their (admitted) failure had created the situation where we needed to pull both kids out. We got our deposit back even though the contract clearly stated we would not.

Since you are just looking for records maybe this approach would work. A “look we all want what’s best for her” approach. Good luck!

I did an extensive Google search, and couldn’t find specifically what I was looking for.

Victoria wrote:

“The secretary who is giving you a hard time was told once many years ago to do things by a certain policy, the boss who invented that policy out of whole cloth is decades gone, but she is still enforcing it as the law and the prophets written in stone. ”

The secretary who let me take a peak at my girls’ report cards last year was actually doing me a favor. Maybe I wasn’t clear on that. It was the school principal who wouldn’t let me have the report cards, and who also has been sending home the letters whenever I fell behind in the monthly tuition payments. The very same woman I have been dealing with all along. The secretary did something really nice she didn’t have to do. The principal was not around. However, in our situation last year, this principal was sure we were returning to the school this year.

“By the way, as they say in England, the penny dropped today. You had a private Catholic school, presumably with a not-too-high tuition. There were several parents having trouble paying. This means the school was having a budget crunch of its own. ”

I suppose everyone has their own idea of what expensive tuition would be, and I know I’ve never siad how much ours is on this board. It is $1200 per year to send both of my daughters to that private Catholic school. Plus the $350 book and registration fees, again, for two children. I won’t even speculate how much the school uniforms and the accessories that go with them have cost me. IMO, that is expensive, for what is being offered/not offered at this school. There is a wonderful prestigious private school in this area that charges $9000 per child, so I can of course see the difference there.

There are families like me who are behind on the tuition, and yet there are families who can send their children to this same school for free. We only speculate on the reasons why those families can get aid, and we cannot. There is no clear cut policy. I cannot imagine why I don’t qualify, being out of work. I have gotten a consistent runaround whenever I ask these questions.

“This can be part of the reason for poor-quality teachers and counsellors and for delayed photo day (the company demands a large deposit.) ”

I don’t think that had anything to do with the delay of picture day, Victoria. Remember, the brand new sports and cheerleading group portraits have graced the halls of the school for months now.

This school is getting some kind of funding, besides the tuition that *some* of us are paying, but I’m not exactly sure what the specifics are. My mother would know, she knows all that goes on in this town just about.
They just completed major renovations on the building that cost millions. Right now, I’m just glad we are getting out.

“No place is perfect, but you may be pleasantly surprised (I hope so) by the teaching quality and funding and programs available in a good public school.”

I sent my girls to a Catholic school, because I went to Catholic grade and high school, and was raised a Catholic. I thought the education was better there, and the discipline too. I know it was when I was young. Perhaps I was wrong, or things have changed. I hope so too, Victoria.

KarenN, I do not think I have ever signed a “contract” at this school. I could be wrong. I know there are no “carved in stone policies” that I have ever read, hence my confusion here. So far this year, the principal “invented” two deadlines to be caught up on payment, one was January 30th, and the other was March 30th. We didn’t know about these dates until the letters came home with our children. I do plan to attempt the personal approach, when the time comes. That is how I avoided the legal action some others did not, last year. Wish me luck.

Regarding the new schools I have in mind, but still have not made an absolute, concrete decision about: they will accept a utility bill as proof of residence, but even if they didn’t, I would be able to come up with a lease. I will have everything, except the school transcripts.

Cathryn, I’m not familiar with parochial school routines, I just know what independent schools in NY do and its all contract based. It may be in your favor if nothing is written down that means with the right pressure maybe you can get what you need. Good luck!

Holding up transcripts will not keep your children out of public school. A public school may not deny your children admission because they have no transcripts. Home schooled children for example have no formal transcript but upon their request to attend public school, they must be admitted - without a transcript.

Thus, what your private school is doing is not against the law and is legal.

Holding up transcripts will not keep your children out of public school. A public school may not deny your children admission because they have no transcripts. Home schooled children for example have no formal transcript but upon their request to attend public school, they must be admitted - without a transcript.

Thus, what your private school is doing is not against the law and is legal.

[quote=”Cathryn”]SAR,

The public school DOES need the transcripts from every school they have ever attended. Just got off the phone with them.

Did they say they would refuse to admit your children without the transcripts in hand? Now, that’s illegal.

Also, proof of address, birth certificate, immunization records from the day they were born, and social security numbers.

Of course.

I’m not suggesting that I should be allowed to skip without paying the school. My question was, is it LEGAL for a grade school to withhold transripts due to tuition not being paid by the time the children need to start the new school.

Yes, it’s legal.

I do not think it can possibly be legal for the kids to become *truant*, because of payment issues, in a primary school.

No but you’re the one they’ll prosecute for the truancy. Not their former school.

Cathryn,

I’ve been reading your horror story for several weeks/months now and feel so sad and angry for you and your family.

I deal with liability and contract issues on a daily basis. There seems to be a few issues here that need to be determined before all your questions can be answered fully:

You said you were not sure that you ever signed a contract. If not, then the school cannot hold you to a set payment unless you have an oral agreement or they provided reasonable notice of when payment is due and what happens if late or not paid. I can almost bet that they made you sign something within the last three years or they couldn’t hold you to such guidelines. If you request the form, they must provide you with a copy of that form - whether you have made your payments or not.

A school has the right to change payment deadlines - if so stipulated in the contract. They must provide such information in advance - each state has a different timeline but it’s usually 90 days.

I’m still checking, but it may be that the “new” school can request and obtain the transcripts under state/federal laws. Double check with the new school to see if they can do so.

Did you receive a student handbook at the beginning of the year? State Law requires that public/private schools provide information outlining both the school’s and the student’s responsibilities.

If you did - check to see if the school abided by its own handbook - they should have a section stiuplating the laws of NY and what the school’s responsibilities are for each child.

Their actions reflect a limited understanding of the law and consumer rights. In fact, there are some issues here that are very questionable. I seem to remember that they did not do anything when you complained about the bullying and racism occuring. If that is so, there are federal/state laws that have been broken. You may have some leverage there - sending a certified letter listing each and every issue that occurred at the school would be useful. Sending a copy to the NY Education Dept might be helpful, also. (I can’t remember if you did that already ????)

For a contract to be upheld, one side promises to provide a need and one side promises to pay for that need. Both sides must abide by the contract. It does not sound like this school has abided by any REASONABLE STANDARD for a safe learning environment and that is what they will be judged on.

No reasonable parent would continue to pay tuition for a school that has failed to provide a “safe learning environment” for their children. That is a breach of contract, plain and simple. I would definitely make a timeline of all the issues vs. when payment ceased (not when late). I bet the issues went on long before the payments ceased.

I hope this made sense!

I believe the original post also mentioned not havng access to SAT scores. These are available directly from the SAT people (Educational Testing Services in Princeton, NJ, if I recall correctly). I know there’s a small fee to have the scores sent to third parties, but I’m not sure if that also applies to the test-taker himself getting a copy. Also, a letter or phone call from the principal at the new school to the principal at the old school may be the most efficient way to pry those transcripts loose, especially once it is explained that they are needed for placement purposes.

Wow Cathryn,

I don’t blame you for wanting to forget about it for awhile but I just had to post and say that your daughter’s response (more content) sure confirms the source of her problems. I would consider writing a letter later on to the leadership of the Catholic school after you have taken care of settling the girls into their new school. I suspect that you are not the only one that doesn’t like that principal.

You grabbed some control back in your life! Congratulations!

Terry