How to advise 4th grade son on social issue with friend?

How old is your son?

My son attends an LD school, too, 3rd grade. One thing I have to remember is that all of these kids have issues or they wouldn’t be in the school. Many need social skills training - no bragging, listen to what others are saying, acknowledge other people’s accomplishments. Our school, like your school, I’m sure, teaches social skills everyday. It’s a process.

If the kids are in the same class, can you email the teacher and have her intervene in a teaching social skills kind of way? When she hears the other boy say something jerk like, even though it may be age typical, perhaps she can suggest to him something more appropriate to say.

The school year is almost over and maybe they will be in different classes next year, or maybe the kid will transition into a regular ed school. I wouldn’t do anything this year as far as changing the nature of the friendship. If he was being *mean* to your son, that would be different, calling names or something like that. The example you gave seemed more rude or unenlightened or even age typical depending on the age.

I have a 43-year-old coworker who says crap like that all the time. Amazing put downs! She has no idea what she’s saying or how it’s interpreted.

Thanks, that helped.

He’s 10, and I do feel that some of it is age appropriate, some of it is just human nature.

The 2 families have become friendly, and we both have younger daughters that are very good friends. I could definitely say something to the other mom , and would if it were more specific. I don’t feel that I can in this case. Its painful, but I think DS has to figure this out too, and definitely broaden his horizons.

They will both be at the school next year. They aren’t in the same class this year, and whether to request him as a classmate is a dilemma, but I have until June to decide that. The school psychologist has an informal lunch with the 2 of them and 3 other boys each week, so I will ask her opinion.

My son’s psychiatrist said at this age friendships become very important and its not unusual that my son would feel badly about this kind of stuff. I’m just not sure how to help him. I’d like to roll play a snappy comeback, but its hard to anticipate.

Rambling on, but thanks again.

Well, I have taught my son some humorous things to say in different situations (my son is the 3rd grader, above, in the LD school). I modeled them more than teaching him.

“Yes, but that’s about you and this is about me.”

“We’re talking about me now….hello.”

“This is where you say Congratulations to me.”

“I thought the *sun* was the center of the universe.” And at work, we say nothing and do the earth going around the sun gester you do with your hands. You know what I’m talking about?

When someone says something meanish, he says “Oh well” and in a whatever kind of voice.

I would keep it light, humorous.

Those are great. That’s exactly what he needs - a repetoire of things to say that won’t provoke more teasing, or single him out as a loser that can’t take a joke.

There is an element of meanness behind some of the things this other child says - its not just a langugae thing. I think , like many of the children there - he needs to put someone down to feel better about himself. It wouldn’t hurt my son so much if he didn’t think of him as his best friend.

One issue that came out last night is that this child teases my DS because I meet the bus, ie, don’t let him walk home. THe truth is the other child lives on a dead end street, and we live on a busy street. I can’t give on a safety issue to make DS feel better. Any thoughts on what a good retort would be? You seem to be good at this!
Thanks!

Family values and child characteristics determine what response your child will bring to peer situations like this one…maybe your child isn’t a “cool” kid(it is very tiring to have a cool kid, believe me, my 5th grader is a grade leader in coolness, with cutting edge humor, and the ability to drive the adults at school out of their minds), so resist the urge to fix things(certainly he is well protected in private school with lots of adult supports) let him find his own level of response and friends. With my LD now 7th grader long ago we decided he could find his own way thru peer friendships and we would not “baby” him and it has worked well in middle school. At 10 years old kids need to find and relate to their own friends and use a style that works for them; it is better to find other situations(Scouts, sports, etc) for meeting a range of possible friends.

Thanks SAR. I was discussing this with my husband last night and he suggested I call the other mom. But I agree with you that my son has to find his own way of dealing. I find with him that role playing possible (humorous) responses helps - its gets him out of his own head a little. He tends to get stuck in his own viewpoint.

He is so not cool! even at an LD school where by definition all the kids have language issues, I find he is still a tad eccentric. But yes, definitely protected froma true bullying or teasing situation. This is more subtle and complicated since it involves a relationship. You always hurt the one you love I guess.

It might help if you’d post more of the things that this other child does that lead you to believe he really does like your son. But as you and your son are sure this other child really does hold your son in regard, then I’d counsel your son to understand that some people even though good people and people we like and who like us can yet say hurtful things. And it becomes a question of percentage- do they do more good things than hurtful things?

If so, we can take the hurtful with the good. Nobody’s perfect.

If they’re in the same class, you might say something to the teacher - does he say those kind of things to your son in class? Cause if he did it in my class, I’d want to know so I could address it. Speaking that way does not serve anybody well and one of the responsibilities a teacher has is to teach students to speak respectfully to each other.

Good luck.

All I can tell you is that he consistently asks for dates with my son, sleepovers, visits etc. If there ‘s a snow day, my son is the friend he wants to see. The mom tells me he misses my son over the breaks. When I see them together most of the time they seem to have a goofy, fun time together.

The problem areas seem to be either when there is another child there, or yesterday it was my son’s success in tae kwon do. Its the classic put someone else down so I can feel better about myself stuff.

If it continues my son may cool off toward this boy, and I wouldn’t blame him. But that could backfire, because the other child is more socially successful, and that opens some doors for my shyer son. I’d hate to see him cut off his nose to spite his face, but I don’t want him to be a doormat either. Ultimately, of course, I have no control!

They see each other on the bus, at lunch/recess, and at home. Its not a classroom problem so I don’t think the teacher can do much.

I had a friend once who whenever she “complimented” a person it was always a hidden insult. “I love that dress on you - you don’t look as heavy” … you know the type. I think this child is like that…. if that makes sense.

Well, it sounds like this kid might have already been through a few friends already. Maybe friends in his past got tired of the rude comments, the one-upping, etc. He seems very focused on your son. Almost needy. If the comments are mean, that puts it in a whole new category for me.

Actually, one-upping each other is a trypical boy thing from what I read in my boy books like The Wonder of Boys. Have you read any boy books? What a different world.

Another comment I use and my son has picked up on, is “I gotta be me.” I really use that when a child says something rude to me, ie “Ms. Smith, why do you allow your son to climb trees/play video games/ride his bike in the street/play in mud puddles etc.?” or “Why do you dump your child in daycare?” or “Why do you work?” blah, blah, blah.

The bus stop thing may be jealousy. He may wish he was met at the bus, too.

My son is super social, tons of friends, more friends than he has time for, and I have had to “guide” him away from certain kids before (he never knew what hit him). I found that some of these kids with these little negative issues were really bad influeces on my son. More than I realized.

In fact, at his LD school there has been this one kid that the mom has been working on developing a friendship with her son and my son and I have already heard from two other moms DON’T and so I didn’t allow a friendship to happen (declined all invitations). The other mom went as far as to have her son’s teacher changed so her son could be in my son’s class (and with the other two boys whose mom’s warned me). The mom is desparate for her son to have friends and the reality of it is the kids don’t like her son bec his behavior is too off-the-wall.

Anyway the moral to that probably boring story is in the past I would have not been as picky. I would have felt sorry for him for not having any friends and my son can get along with most anyone. He is a lot of kids’ only friend. But, really, hanging with these kids with these negative issues was doing a subtle number on my son and his behavior started to get bad and he started to get mouthy and so I cut a couple of these friendships off and my son’s behavior turned around right away. But it doesn’t sound like you are to that point yet.

I actually had to move one time to get my daughter away from her best friend!
The friend had been very nice in kindergarten and I actually encouraged them to get together. But her parents took a year out of town and when she came back she had an attitude the size of an elephant. Her parents were very laissez-faire and this was OK in our very reserved culture, but after a year in a more competitive place where she was always the winner, and being skipped up a grade, she was just horrible. This kid at age 8 was taking it upon herself to tell me how to run my life, but became very angry when I said something to correct her. Essentially she was given all the social rights of an adult with none of the responsibility, aaargh.
People do change, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.

As far as the put-downs, yes, that is the classic *passive-aggressive* move, reminds me of far too many people I have tried and failed to have relationships with. Once this is a habit in adults there is little to do, but maybe this child is young enough to learn.
Various answers; I liked the one above “Well that was you and this is about me”. That’s a good one. He can get a little stronger and say “Hey, stop admiring yourself and think about somebody else some time.” He can be direct and say “Hey, I’m supposed to be your friend, you can sound happy for me.” Depending on the cultural limits of your town (highly variable so take care!) he may give the classic man-to-man “*%^$ off, you (**&^%%, you can get down off your throne and say something decent to somebody else.” Fill in the blanks with words of varying strength depending on social usage.
If your son does want to build a friendship and therefore needs to get this message through to the other kid, he will need to repeat this kind of thing many, many times, and if you are present you can use some variant of the same thoughts. If he is reachable, a few hundred times should get through to him that he is missing something.
If he gets upset about the criticism, take that as a teachable moment and explain to him that he is hurting other people’s feelings so he is getting a negative response back. You can model a more effective response for him. It is quite likely that he has learned this from his own family and needs to hear a different approach.

Well here’s an update, and it isn’t pretty.

Yesterday at lunch, my son’s friend “A” wasn’t there and my son played with the other members of their bunch including his friend “B”. They were bulding things with sticks and rocks and some disagreement ensued. EVeryone went into lunch feeling mad. B told A, who had joined them that my son was responsible for destroying something they had bulit, which he hadn’t. And friend A sided against my son. Nothing is more hurtful for my son who is a very loyal friend and truly feels betrayed. Some teasing followed.

He came home and told me he was cancelling his friendship wtih A and B, and I think he means it. He seemed pretty calm, and plans to sit elsewhere at lunch today.

Of course, he’s supposed to play with B after school on friday and havea sleepover with A over the weekend. Like I said, these are his 2 friends, but as we all know, group dynamics can be deadly.

I spoke with A’s mom, who is a friend of mine (and lovely by the way). She’s concerned, but obviously got a slightly different story from her son. He’s not angry, and doesn’t understand why they wouldn’t still have a sleepover.

I told my son what one of the poster’s here said ” with some friendships you have to decide if the good outweighs the bad…” . There’s no way I could make that decision for him. My only concern is that because he doesn’t have another close friend, and the group seems to be siding against him, he maybe left out in the cold. But it is April, and next year will be a new year. I fear though this is just a foreshadowing of what is in store for him in middle school. While these boys aren’t nice to tease I think its pretty common at this age.

Sigh.

Karen-As the parent of 2 boys, 5th and 7th grades, none of this is unusual - I think you need to ask why you and the other parent should jump in and fix things(it sounds like normal boy behavior, they aren’t very nice at this age, and fighting and saying I don’t like you is quite common); kids often say things they don’t mean and perhaps your son is taking things too literally(kids this age also start to use sarcasm) kids develop social skills at different rates unless the social skill deficits are part of a larger AS/NVLD syndrome and then as I have seen in a friend of my older son things get worse(in middle school). Try a new group of kids in a supervised group like Scouts, 4-H, team sports, or try group music/instrument lessons, swimming, etc. If the things at school are a problem talk to the teachers and counselors who should intervene in the therapeutic lunch group and deal with it there.

Is your son sensitive? He seems to be having extreme reactions to typical boy stuff. Listening to my son interact with his friends they sound like old married couples, bickering one second, supporting each other the next, teasing the next second, helping each other, calling each other “Hobo” or “Billy” and then complimenting them on something, I mean it’s all over the place.

One of my son’s friends though is so sensitive, he cried throughout Cheaper By The Dozen and said it was the saddest movie he ever saw because people where mean to each other. This child does have difficulty with friendships. He can’t do the bantering like the other boys and when he’s the target he takes it to heart and cries. His parents are encouraging him to toughen up. I don’t know if it’s working, but when he’s at my house I can’t have any other kids here.

Karen,

Since your son is feeling fed up at the moment, why don’t you encourage him to call his friend and tell him that he isn’t sure he wants to spend the night. Tell him to explain to his friend that he hasn’t liked the way he is being treated and that he doesn’t know if he wants to spend more time with him.

My experience says that your son is coming out on the bottom of this pile (as opposed to back and forth bantering) because he is allowing it to happen. He needs to stand up for himself and see what happens. The friend may not be aware of how the way he is acting is being interpreted. In any case, he doesn’t think it ought to have any consequences. If the boy truly likes your son, he will tone it down once your son actively objects. If he doesn’t tone it down, then your son can move on.

I do think LD children have a greater than average need to be on top. It makes them feel better about all the times they aren’t, I suspect. I see it with my own son and his younger brother. (four years age difference so wouldn’t expect so much upmanship). He does just what you describe the friend does—taking away from someone else’s moment of glory. I haven’t noticed him doing it except to his brother but maybe the friend doesn’t have a brother to verbally beat up on!!

Beth

Hi guys,

Guest, I would say that my son is more sensitive than most, but not extreme. He can banter with his old friends because he trusts them. These are all new friends, new school, new everything. .I had the opportunity to speak with the school psychologist (who has lunch with this group of boys on fridays ) and one of his teachers today. I was surprised to hear them both say that my son is *not* more sensitive than the average 4th grader. They see him as a sweet boy who is really good at articulating his feelings, which is great, but I think its too touchy feely for some of the more macho kids.

Beth, I think you have nailed it. The few times this dynamic has played out the other boy has cleaned up his act b/c he really wants the friendship. My son has a long memory though, and he feels that if this keep happening then they can’t be friends. Today at school he felt he cooled it and felt more empowered. I agree 100% that he brings some of this on himself . Its easy to get a rise out of him unfortunately if you know which buttons to push. He tried to give some back yesterday , but he’s just not good at the snappy comeback. He honestly doesn’t have a mean bone in his body.

Hopefully he’ll learn to roll with the punches a little better, but on the other hand I do want him to have enough self esteem to end a toxic friendship, if that is what it is.

Keep ya posted.