Ok guys...Am I way off on this???

I remember when I was a junior in high school, and one of the “cool” senior boys who was in my speech class really had terrible stage fright. We were all terrified by the way, and we were teenagers, and dreaded being called on to make our speeches. This one particular senior boy leaned back in his desk, and refused to give his speech, even though he was prepared. He was just plain scared to do it. Our teacher told him he would “get an F” if he didn’t get up and do it. This student agreed to take the “F” before getting up and speaking before the class.

My point of this little story? This man is now an actor who makes lots of money. He was in that movie, um, what was it called? “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”. Also, he was on HBO’s “Sex and the City”. He was first noticed on the quirky television comedy, “Northern Exposure”. His name is John Corbett, Johnny to us. He grew up in my neighborhood, and my family has known him since we were children. (He is aware we like to tell this story.)

So… should an 8 year old be expected to get up in front of a group and speak, without being so nervous he/she freezes? I think not. That is an outrageous expectation for any child.

Lost,
I kind of think a like Cathryn on this. Even in a Gifted class, a teacher should not expect a child to be able to so comfortable in front of a class. I’m thinking that gifted children are usually more tempermental and cerainly harder on themselves than other children. They are often behind emotionally/socially compared to other children. It’s almost like this teacher has no training in Gifted Education.

The problem is that you might not be able to fight this one. It is good that you spoke your mind though. If you start to feel that this is a battle that you can not fight, then I would encourage your son to let it roll off his back. Basically, he needs to be encouraged to understand that sometimes life is not fair and he won’t be judged appropriately. The important thing to stress to him that you are proud of him and he needs to believe in himself no matter what grade the teacher gives him. If he manages to get a 65 next time he has a similar assignment then that would be fantastic. She grades very hard and he shouldn’t take it personally. He should go for his own personal best. I bet a few other children had the same problem as your child on that assignment.

We had a similar issue with my very bright 8 year old. The Gym teacher gave her a 4 in sportsmanship. The highest that you can get is a 5. Now my daughter is incredibly sportsman-like but the teacher just doesn’t know her. She’s a “moral authority” in our house. We are not going to fight to get the 5. We just a aware that she should have gotten a five.

In college, there was a Botany teacher that only gave girls B’s and C’s, never less, never more. Only boys received A’s. It probably would have been possible to cause a stink and resist but I didn’t care because I knew that a B wasn’t going to interfere with the dreams that I had. I also knew that I deserved an A. I’ve always known my true worth and I would bet that many of you feel the same. I always knew when I received a higher grade than I deserved also.

Best of luck,
Terry

It sounds harsh to me as well. I require my high school students to do a brief oral presentation on a chosen topic of art history. It’s not easy for them but what I do is have them work in pairs. They have to answer questions related to their topic, do some related artwork, and present it orally. It counts as a major project. What I do is tell them that I don’t care how they split it up as long as it’s equitable. Meaning if one of you is better at writing then maybe that person should write in the answers you find together and then the other can do the majority of the oral presentation. Also, the more silent presenter will use the board to illustrate ideas. We do an even smaller more informal oral presentation project that helps to build up to that. That’s something that maybe the teacher might want to think about. That is, doing some fun little exercises that will get the kids used to presenting orally without being graded.

I think that even though it’s a gifted course that it is harsh for an 8 year old. I also think that you are right in that effort should have counted for something. No child who works that hard should be so heavily penalized. Who can blame him for being discouraged? I’m sorry that your son is going through this. Somewhere on the web I came across an article about adhd toxic teachers and this sounds like one of them!

By the way, I have never heard of not being allowed to consult notes (even at college level) for an oral presentation. That goes against common sense!

Thanks for all your replies.

I haven’t pushed the subject since my first note. I just signed her comment sheet. Thankfully, DS is not aware of how upset his parents are with the school. It have been so many small little issues like this. We live in a new subdivision (same ISD) and of the three families that have moved in next to us, only my children attend that school. The others have either been transfered, sent to a private school or pulled out for home schooling.

I did call the Superintendent (end of the school year so it shouldn’t affect how the teacher treats him for too long). His secretary listened to my list of issues and praises. She wants us to visit with him next week and bring DS’ work papers. She sounded a little concerned.

The funny thing is, she did say “that elementary has the best test scores of all the elementaries.” Since we are in an extremely large and growing ISD, there are quite a number of elementaries! I told her that if a child learns without understanding, its a waste of time. I would rather my child like school than for them to obtain the “best test scores.” My child is NOT test driven. She did agree that there should be a balance.

Heck, my worst grade in college was my Speech Class (and not because of my writing). Hated it!!!!! Today, I speak in front of large groups without giving it much thought. It took 20 years to get there.

Cathryn - cool!!!! I hope John was a good guy. I just hate when they turn out to be jerks. His story is such a great example. Can I use it?

TerryB - I will definitely work on the “let it roll off his back” issue. That really is one of our more serious problem areas. He gets so frustrated with himself.

JenM - thank you. I’m writing down your suggestion for when I meet with the Superintendent. There are so many wonderful and fun ways to teach “to the test” without ruining a child’s view of learning.

Well, I’ve got to go. I’ll check back tomorrow.

Again, I can’t tell you how much your comments help our family.

Thanks for all your replies.

I haven’t pushed the subject since my first note. I just signed her comment sheet. Thankfully, DS is not aware of how upset his parents are with the school. It have been so many small little issues like this. We live in a new subdivision (same ISD) and of the three families that have moved in next to us, only my children attend that school. The others have either been transfered, sent to a private school or pulled out for home schooling.

I did call the Superintendent (end of the school year so it shouldn’t affect how the teacher treats him for too long). His secretary listened to my list of issues and praises. She wants us to visit with him next week and bring DS’ work papers. She sounded a little concerned.

The funny thing is, she did say “that elementary has the best test scores of all the elementaries.” Since we are in an extremely large and growing ISD, there are quite a number of elementaries! I told her that if a child learns without understanding, its a waste of time. I would rather my child like school than for them to obtain the “best test scores.” My child is NOT test driven. She did agree that there should be a balance.

Heck, my worst grade in college was my Speech Class (and not because of my writing). Hated it!!!!! Today, I speak in front of large groups without giving it much thought. It took 20 years to get there.

Cathryn - cool!!!! I hope John was a good guy. I just hate when they turn out to be jerks. His story is such a great example. Can I use it?

TerryB - I will definitely work on the “let it roll off his back” issue. That really is one of our more serious problem areas. He gets so frustrated with himself.

JenM - thank you. I’m writing down your suggestion for when I meet with the Superintendent. There are so many wonderful and fun ways to teach “to the test” without ruining a child’s view of learning.

Well, I’ve got to go. I’ll check back tomorrow.

Again, I can’t tell you how much your comments help our family.

I really hate the teach to the test mentality. We have schools in our district that live and breathe some of these tests for the whole year. Luckily, the subject area that I teach is not on a standardized test…yet!

[quote]Cathryn - cool!!!! I hope John was a good guy. I just hate when they turn out to be jerks. His story is such a great example. Can I use it?[/quote]

Sure, you can use it. After all, there were 30 of us in that class, and I’m sure we aren’t the only ones who tell that story.

Johnny was/is a great guy, down to earth, funny, and just an all around nice person. I haven’t seen him for awhile, but my brother has. He comes to our town to visit his family periodically. And he used to mention the name of our hometown on his “radio show” (he played a DJ) on the TV show ‘Northern Exposure’. I heard, the first thing he did when he started making a good actor’s salary, was buy his mother a home— isn’t that great? It’s a case of, if I only knew then what I know now…

I absolutely hted public speaking as a student and now here I am teaching.

When a teacher assigns a project to a class, including an oral report, **everybody** has to do it period. If you start making exceptions because one kid feels bad about it, then you will end up with nearly the whole class excepted and only a few stars performing, and that isn’t the point of the assignment at all. The point is to *learn* how to do an oral report, to *learn* to overcome your shyness, to *learn* to push yourself to do something difficult. If every single person in the class has to do it, whether or not they are good or bad at speaking, whether or not they feel shy, well then we are all in the same boat and it isn’t such a big deal. A good teacher will very firmly shut off any teasing and will put the shyer kids in the middle of the group so they can see other people stumbling first.

The zero marks are not good — it really would be better to give a few points for effort. That does encourage you to try harder next time.

I was very angry after reading your post!! I can’t imagine what harm this teacher has done to not only your child but many other children!! We homeschool but Michael attends classes at our homeschool group on Fri. They are required from3rd grade up to make presentations(book reports etc).Our “principal” teaches this class. She goes over what things make up a good presentation and how you should act when presenting etc. Then she gives the kids a few weeks to write and practice their presnetations. They have the option of using notecards or their written report or nothing. She doesn’t GRADE them.She gives them positive feedback immediately about the things she liked etc. No negative comments. I have seen 1 child that would just get up and never look at the audience or anything and she told her it was great because she had actually gotten up in front of the class. She said she knew next time she would probably want to speak. That same child, 1 yr. later, has completely gotten over her stage fright!! This is a great lesson for young kids to learn but it has to be TAUGHT!!! Not everyone is a born speaker. JanP.S. We always videotape Michael and he critiques himself and makes changes. It”s a great tool.

My 10 year old had the same assignment. He got a C. I thought he should have got a B so I asked the teacher about it. She said some of the kids were really really good, that he didn’t look at anyone (no notes either), and that he missed some key points in the story. I knew his analysis left out some critical points but opted to let him do it his way rather than doing the assingment for him.

I told him that I talked to his teacher and that she took points off for not looking at the audience and that we would have to work on that part for next time. He also spoke in a monotone but I didn’t tell him that part—I didn’t think it was something he could easily change. I wanted him to feel like he had control of what he could do.

He seemed unfazed then and stopped asking me why he got a C. But of course, he didn’t get a zero. I think my son’s teacher would have given him another chance a different day—she has given my son and others breaks like that on tests when they failed (average two grades). My son’s teacher also had them dress him like the character so a child who didn’t even speak would have received points for that.

And my husband who practically made himself ill in college over some red cross persuasion speech (that as a very patient girl friend I had to hear numerous times) now is a wonderful public speaker and does a lot of presentations as part of his job.

Beth

Beth

Jen P - taping is such a great idea!!!!

Beth - that’s exactly the issue. She took away his feeling of self-control. Now he has not incentive to try again, much less to try harder. It’s a self-defeating circle for him now.

Victoria, I agree. Pushing him to do it is very important and I agree with a low grade. I guess my problem was with failing a child because they couldn’t give a 2-3 minute oral presentation without EVER looking at notes or hesitating. This is not appropriate for any 2nd grader. If he had refused to get up and do the report - Yes, give him a 0. But out of 45 points, could she not have given 5 or 10 just so he felt there was a reason to try again next time? Why couldn’t there have been several practice sessions or teaming up?

The sad part is, he’s learned a simple concept. If you’re going to get a bad grade with all that effort and fear, then take the easy way out and don’t try next time?

I called and spoke with the ISD regarding their basic requirements. Well, that seemed to upset somebody and now I have a meeting with the Superintendent and Principal (while my husband is away in Japan!). I’m scared to death and I know how the Principal dismissed my concerns so nicely last time. Not sure what this will accomplish but at least I have spoken up.

I contacted one of the learning centers in our area and they are going to do an assessment to see why he’s become so frustrated and fearful of school. I hope to take that with me to the meeting!

We’ve been going over his last year of school and wonder if we are all missing a LD issue or comprehension issue. If so, why hasn’t she mentioned this? All we ever hear about is his being off-task or day dreaming.

We don’t think the problem is just with the teacher. I know she cares about her job and the students. She is rigid and expects children to fit in a “box” but she’s not mean or cold hearted. She does get very stubborn when questioned. I think that they are not trained to understand ADHD/ADD, gifted, etc. They are too interested in having the best test scores - not the best students.

Thanks for all your wonderful comments. They are so helpful.

xxxx

xxxx

Cathryn: You are still here. You are still caring for your family. You are still a live feeling person. AND no homicides :roll: . Yes, that’s a success. Celebrate the small ones for yourself as well as for your kids.

If anyone gets mad at you for posting in the wrong place by accident, they will be the small minority and the rest will support you; heck, we’ve pretty much all done it in our time.

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Back on topic to about the oral report and testing in general:

I went to schools that were quite old-fashioned, the last holdouts, even for their time back in the dark ages.

One thing that I noticed and that John Holt has also commented on: We had a testing system, very strict, 80% of your grade dependent on that final exam. Well, but EVERYBODY wrote that same final exam and everybody had the same marking system. There was no “placing out” of exams or anything else. You knew the exam was coming and when, and you knew *exactly* what material was going to be tested on it, no surprises. You know what? It was very restful! We *didn’t* have tests every day, we *didn’t* have pressure of marks all the time; class time was, of all radical ideas, to be spent on learning, and testing was a now-and-then thing to measure how you were doing. Since everybody wrote every exam three times a year — and the school classes were cancelled and all you did was go in and write exams, like a college exam week, from Grade 4 up — well, exams were just not such a big deal!! They were just a part of school life, like the uniforms we had to wear (even in public schools of the time), like having to line up, just something you did three times a year. Of course we griped but it was just a necessary evil. And when the exams were done they were done, and you could go back to normal for another few months. Under this system at least 95% of the class passed every year — you know in a small elementary, because in a class of 35 there will only be one or two kids repeating — and that is a *better* pass rate than the “social-promotion” schools I worked in later.

I never saw anyone suffer from severe exam stress until we moved to a different province with a more “modern” school system; there, they had a weird self-defeating policy that anyone with above a C and a teacher’s recommendation was excused final exams — until senior year and graduation when all the good students who had never written a final in their lives suddenly had to perform, and then you saw the nervous breakdowns.

My point here is that if the assignment is matter-of-fact and universal, then it can be gotten through one way or another. Sometimes well and sometimes not so well, but you just do it and make it through.
There should really be several oral reports over the year, so it’s actually a learning experience (what a concept, radical again) and you try to learn from the mistakes of the first and improve each time. And since it’s supposed to be a learning experience, marks of zero are really not appropriate if the student does anything at all.

Funny anecdote (pass this on to your son to make him feel better): in a French second language class one of my education classmates taught, one assignment was to do an oral report demonstrating how to do a skill. A student came in with a prepared demonstration of how to make blueberry pancakes, complete with a camp stove and all the ingredients and the recipe copied to hand out to everyone. The student made lovely pancakes and served them and it was a lot of fun. Unfortunately, he got so wound up in his cooking that he didn’t speak a single word. As it was supposed to be an *oral* report, the teacher had to give him a failing grade.
(Nonetheless he didn’t give a zero, and he did speak to the student and explain what to do better next time.)

Cathryn -
You can post accidently to my “topic” anytime. But I love your daughter’s comment about being crammed in to fit.

I also thought this board is a way to get our feelings, thoughts and emotions out. So, being emotional here should be expected and accepted. Your feelings and fear are so strong - how could you not be emotional?

I wish you and your daughters strength for this period you are going through.

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Victoria - good story! I bet he was fun to watch - even without speaking. A least he got some points for trying.

I can’t imagine our ISD ever doing something that made common sense. They are too concerned with their test numbers. It’s all you find on their website. Every issue is related back to the tests. One-track minded.

Your first school sounds so “learning” oriented. That was how an elementary school I went to was set up. It was called a “block” system. You actually worked on your own for a majority of the time. You worked each block at your own speed and took a fiinal exam at the end of each block - when you were ready. I rocked on that system! I was over two grades ahead by the end of the year. Then we moved to a school with this new type of teaching to the test attitude. My scores just sank. Not from lack of knowledge, but from lack of motivation and excitement. I was so bored and remained so until college. Then, it was like coming alive again.

I had forgotten that until just know.

My thoughts are that you’re one of my heroes if you’ll take this to the Superintendent. Somebody needs to.

The standards of our modern times are a bit wacky. Last week both of my nephews were doing state reports - one is in the 4th grade and the other is in kindergarten! Both were expected to do research and then make a presentation to the class…. I remember dropping a course in college because I was going to have to make an oral report…

That children your son’s age are given the experience of talking in front of an audience isn’t a bad thing. Grading them harshly on their fledgling attempts is. It makes no sense. What is the thinking? That he deserves to be punished or made to feel bad for his inability to make eye contact on his first oral presentation? How would this teacher advise you to approach the second one when he’s had such a failing experience with the first one?

I told my own sons quite frankly that school and its teachers are not perfect - and I’m a teacher. I told them that in these sad times learning or trying to doesn’t always seem to be the most important thing.

If it were, this teacher might have learned long before this that you catch more young flies with honey than with vinegar. I had a 7th grade student who almost fainted when he had to do an oral report in my class. I stood beside him - after he was able to stand - elbow to elbow, shoulder to shoulder - and with that reinforcement, he was able to stand in front of the class and speak.

I alway suggest to any parent - especially one such as you wonderfully willing to go to the Superintedent - keep your ear to the ground on next year’s teachers and request whichever one is the more sane and the less inane than this year’s.

Good luck.

My daughter has had these type of assignments since 1st grade. She had a very “old school” type of teacher, (also retiring at the end of the school year) who insisted that she will need these skills for the future.

The assignment was to pick a woman in history, and answer 10 questions about the person. My daughter being infatuated with Harry Potter picked JK Rowling. We rehersed the answers to the questions, she had it down pat. The day came and she was panicky. So I wrote a note attached to the assignment asking the teacher to prompt her when she got “Stuck”. The teacher proceeded to let my daughter “read” off of her paper for “help”, and then gave her a “C” for not being able to recite from memory. A reminder: THIS IS FIRST GRADE!

Sometimes it doesn’t matter as parents what you request of the teacher. It will always be the the childs word against what the teacher say’s, and the teacher will always win out. We asked the teacher about the grade, whether she read my note, and why she let her read off of the paper, the teachers reply was, “it was just easier”.

Good Luck to us all…..

In the real world, most teachers do not really understand attentional difficulties such as ADHD inattention, some types of epilepsies (petit mal/absence), etc. The teachers are more interested in bottomline results (test scores) than accommodations. Sorry, that’s my observation.

pgd is correct in that most teachers don’t understand the extent of difficulty adhd can cause in learning. I am a teacher and I didn’t know until my daughter was diagnosed. My daughter’s teacher and all those who worked with her didn’t. None of us had any idea that her “dyslexic type symptoms” were caused by her adhd. As far as test scores, I think that really depends on the school and/or district. We have elementary schools in our district that teach to the test for the entire year. The kids live and breathe test preparation. We have other schools that only deal with it when it’s testing time.

I don’t think you are way off. I am 41 and still am afraid to get up in front of a large group. They started giving current events in front of the class when my daughter was in 1st grade and I thought that was quite extreme. Today I went to hear my daughter who is in forth grade give a speech in front of the class. The kids in my daughter’s class were paired off with kids with learning differences. I thought this was a great thing to do. The kids in my daughter’s class who are not GT but are bright. They helped the ones in the other class. I think they all did a great job and was definitly moved by it since my youngest is LD and ADHD. I don’t feel that a grade should be weighted that much on the oral presentation because some people can get up in front of an audience and others have a difficult time with it.