Labels - see what I mean

Really, good grief!

Janis

To put another spin on this though… I don’t know about Michalangelo, never heard this, and don’t know why this has been said.

OTOH, I don’t see autism as entirely a mental health dx, I see it as a way of seeing the world that (and I am not talking about those on the more severe end of the spectrum) has its own strengths and benefits. The societal pressures may make it as much of a disability as the disability itself. Would knowing someone was autistic in anyway decrease their stature? Perhaps in some cases it would make it possible.

We know that Beethoven was deaf— it doesn’t make his music less beautiful? Perhaps it made it possible to create the way he did. Also we know Van Gogh had epilepsy, some form of mental illness, poisoning, or vestibular disease (whatever?), but he HAD to have had them to create the swirling images he did. Does this in some way make them less than they were? We know that Steven Hawking has ALS, from what I have read before he got the disease he was restless and unfocused. I doubt he could have achieved any of it without ALS.

So while I do wonder what the base some of these statements on— sometimes on little, they are no doubt right about some of them. I personally have no problems with that. We know that autism makes you see things in ways others do not. This is not entirely a horrible thing.

—des
someone who has lived with autism

Here is the article from the Web MD site where I put in the words Michelangelo and autism to access the article. Your comments are interesting, des. Beethoven etc. I just think the aspergers/high functioning is way over used these days and that so many brilliant people fit its description. While I try to be open minded I do think the label autism has a stigma. It may not diminish the contribution, but it does insinuate that the person is not just brilliant, perhaps excentric, but has something wrong with them. Read down to some “even attend regular schools”.

May 26, 2004 — Classic tortured genius: The great artist Michelangelo may have suffered from autism, new research shows.

The report, which appears in the Journal of Medical Biography, provides a synthesis of new evidence about the famous 16th century artist, renowned for painting the Sistine Chapel in Rome.

“He was a loner, self-absorbed, and gave his undivided attention to his masterpieces — a feature of autism,” writes lead researcher Muhammad Arshad, PhD, a psychiatrist at Five Boroughs Partnership NHS Trust in Great Britain.

“Michelangelo met the criteria for Asperger’s disorder, or high-functioning autism,” Arshad adds.

In his report, Arshad outlines research into the great artist — taken from numerous works, including notes from the artist’s assistant and his family. It all points to high-functioning autism, he says.

Autism is a complex disorder that does not affect intelligence. But it does impact how people perceive and process information. Difficulty communicating, social isolation, a need for control, and obsession with very specific interests are hallmarks of autism. For some people, all this makes daily functioning quite difficult. Others get along fairly well, even attend regular schools.

Michelangelo likely suffered from high-functioning autism, called Asperger’s syndrome, says Arshad. Some of his evidence:

The men in Michelangelo’s family “displayed autistic traits” and mood disturbances. His family described him as “erratic” and “had trouble applying himself to anything.” As a child and young man, he did not get along with his family and suffered physical abuse.

The artist was aloof and a loner. The artist’s mentor described Michelangelo as being unable to make friends or to maintain any relationship. He did not attend his brother’s funeral, which underlined “his inability to show emotion,” writes Arshad.

He was obsessed with work and controlling everything in his life — family, money, time. Loss of control caused him great frustration. He was able to generate, in a short time, many hundreds of sketches for the Sistine ceiling — no two alike, nor any pose similar. He gave his undivided attention to his masterpieces.

He had difficulty holding up his end of a conversation, often walking away in the middle of an exchange, writes Arshad. He had a short temper, a sarcastic wit, and was paranoid at times. He was bad-tempered and had angry outbursts.

He rarely bathed, and often slept in his clothes including his boots. “He has sometimes gone so long without taking them off that then the skin came away, like a snake’s, with the boots,” wrote the artist’s assistant.
“Michelangelo’s single-minded work routine, unusual lifestyle, limited interests, poor social and communication skills, and various issues of life control appear to be features of high-functioning autism,” Arshad concludes.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––—

When you really start thinking about it, almost all of us fit into some type of diagnosis or other.

Laura in CA

Laura’s point is exactly what I was thinking. Why do we feel the need to focus on people’s abnormalities? I’d much rather focus on the accomplishments of these masters of the arts as opposed to trying to belatedly diagnose them with something.

Michaelangelo’s “symptoms” could either be mental health related or Asperger’s and there is obviously no way to diagnose that now for sure.

I have many imperfections. I hope I do some good in the world. If all I did was focus on my faults, I’d be one depressed person.

I do think we are overdiagnosing today. I look around and it seems like almost very family I know has a child with some kind of diagnosis.

I am thinking that if labels had been around in Michaelangelo’s time, perhaps he would have been in special ed. or a special school to teach him some trade (as in making him fit some “box”) and he might never have ended up creating his masterpieces.

Janis

This is interesting as I am an artist and art teacher. However, the article doesn’t seem to take into account other circumstances. I am relying on ancient art history courses here so I may have to research to double check. I have a few books on Michelangelo and this is inspiring me to go back and read them. Basically Michelangelo was forced by the Medici family to create some of these great artworks. He was basically treated as an indentured servant and wanted them done so he could do what he wanted. The personality traits listed are true to what I remember but I’m not sure that it is all due to the reasons believed in the article. Who knows? I haven’t done all the research that the author did. I just would make sure other environmental factors were examined!

BTW, I have quite a few books on Van Gogh and he was definitely an interesting character! My biggest thought on him is if he lived today what kind of life would he have had? Would he have killed himself at a young age? Would his artwork have the same impact? Part of what is exceptional about his work is the period it was done. It was not understood as it was considered very abstract and nobody bought his work. He also spent a lot of time preaching throughout the countryside. There are many diagnoses that would fit him in retrospect. Some that are considered likely are bipolar, paranoid, schizophrenic. I could go on and on about this man as my students love to learn about him! I have no doubt that had he lived today he would have been able to receive the help he needed so he would not have had such a tortured life! Incredible story when you think that during his lifetime he sold two paintings. One to his brother for extra cash as a favor. One to the pub where he ate in exchange for a few meals. Today his paintings have sold for more than any other in the entire world!

I agree that it is difficult or impossible to make these kind of determinations postumusly (sp?). For example there are the times themselves, the circumstances under which he lived, etc. But that even when we know what was wrong— for example we do know, most people know there was something up with Van Gogh, that it doesn’t take away at all from his work knowing this. Well not in my opinion anyway. In fact, it somewhat adds to it, knowing he had a unique struggle. Maybe it makes it more awesome in some way. Knowing Beethoven composed while going deaf really makes me in awe!

The question of Janis is more interesting, imo. What would have happened today? The way we put kids in special ed., use medication to try and block characteristics of certain problems etc. I wonder if we have as many geniuses as we once did! And if some of them aren’t sitting in special ed classes and tracked to do vocational type jobs they are not suited to. But then I also feel that our society is so complex that is does prevent some things from happening that might have long ago.

As for the “we all have disabilities”. Perhaps but… do you want the school to say this? “We all have disabilities” therefore no reason to really worry that your daughter can’t read.

I think some of this labeling is done by various groups to show “look at how much someone with this particular issue can do”. I know various different groups have tried to claim Van Gogh and I think it is for that reason.” See he was epileptic, see what he accomplished”. It becomes a little humorous when a few groups claim he is “their’s” imo.

—des

So true, des! I love your point about different groups wanting to “claim” the famous person!

I also agree with the dilemma between no labeling and needing labeling to get educational services. It is a difficult problem.

Janis

The claiming the famous person thing has gotten funny, imo. This might make ya’ll mad but I have seen Einstein and Edison (both of whom had difficulty in school, were late in speaking, and were not real adept socially) “claimed” by autism and dyslexia camps. But I think it does have a purpose (the claiming the famous person). Some parent with a kid who has dyslexia, AS, or whatever can say to their kid not to make excuses after all _____ was ______ too. Or it might make them more hopeful, I don’t know. I’m not sure if this is entirely the case. Maybe when less famous, yet successful people are mentioned, say Jay Leno or the Fonz. The thing is though as much as I think seeing the world in a different way is useful and even can help someone achieve (can’t imagine what Dr. Temple Grandin does could have happened without autism) there are still other things she possesses, an amazing artistic sense (for the drawings she does), genius, a love of animals, and large amounts of perseverence, etc.

—des

I’ve got a different take on this too. I think more and more people are beginning to see the light. In the pure old days, we saw the great people of history as perfect in their accomplishments but the reality is - they might have had learning differences in school. the whole Einstein had dyslexia discussion is an old one and so Web Md is adding a great artist to the mix.

The point is not to see these people as flawed or ‘mentally unwell- but to see that being different can lead to remarkable things. In schools we encourage all children to perform the same and need to better understand that difference and different performers can make very wonderful contributions to the world as did this great artist.

the more we speculate as to what underlying learning differences the great people of history may have had, the more hope there might be that schools and teachers recognize that such differences are not bad. In the ideal world, schools and teachers would value each child for what they are - not what they might become to society - but until that ideal world is here, I’m happy to have schools and teachers consider the possibility that Michalangelo was possibly autistic.

The Pope certainly found him difficult to work with and he did have trouble completing assignments on time….[/i]

“The point is not to see these people as flawed or ‘mentally unwell- but to see that being different can lead to remarkable things. In schools we encourage all children to perform the same and need to better understand that difference and different performers can make very wonderful contributions to the world as did this great artist.”

Amen to that. When will society stop trying to cram our children into “little boxes” and try to make them all the same? There is a song my mother used to sing to me when I was a child. At the time, it was cute and seemed so harmless, but read these words:

Malvina Reynolds

“1. Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There’s a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
2. And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there’s doctors and there’s lawyers
And business executives,
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
3. And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.
4. And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There’s a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same. ”

It’s just an old folk song, don’t know if anybody else has ever heard this, has a cute catchy melody. But how true, and how wrong, and, of course, how very impossible. Is it any wonder almost all of us have or know someone with a child with some kind of “diagnosis”, just because they are different?

I don’t disagree with the last two posts. I’d just take a different slant and say that instead of calling LD kids disabled, how about most of us fall on a spectrum of “normal”, some with greater differences than others? (Yes, there are some kids that must have labels and can’t participate in regular education).

I really do not consider my child disabled and HATED having to give her that label at school. Her gifts are not those that fit the box of what is traditonally valued in education. She has very excellent fine motor skills and is creative and may turn out to be a fine artist, designer, or even hair stylist. She just may never excel in traditional academics yet she is very bright. To me, she is not disabled…her strengths are just in other areas. It really is the educational system’s fault that some of our kids end up labelled as diabled. THEY are the ones that can’t think outside the box.

(And the minute she feels that she can’t fit the box well enough to preserve her self-esteem, I’ll pull her right out of there!)

Janis

Have you read Mel Levine’s books? He is so against labeling but instead suggests demystifying the issues for the kids.
His work is excellent - I once heard him joke about how he was accepting a “Dyslexia” award from the Landmark School here in MA but he didn’t even believe in dyslexia. Not to say that he doesn’t believe in learning differences as anyone who has read his book knows.
If you haven’t read his work, I highly recommend it. Or at least check out his website:
www.allkindsofminds.org

Well there’s another side of labels, the side you don’t always hear about. So here it is. Ok labels are for cans and not people, etc etc. But they do have a good side and that is they explain stuff going on to people. It is like the old idea of giving the thing a name and that gives you some kind of power over it. Happens all the time in mythology and as it happens in real life.

Until I understood about autism, I always knew something was different about me. My mother thought I was very bright, bless her, but it hardly explained how I played and related to other kids. When I found out which is a story all by itself, everything snapped into place and I thought “well that explains that!” I have read of similar stories by tons of people. Ok all anectodal. One story of someone I don’t know, a ten year old boy with AS. He is somewhere and reads an article on AS. He puts it down and says, “That’s me! That does explain things.”

—des

One of the real negative aspects of pasting an “LD” label on Einstein has been that an *awful* lot of teachers and other adults use that to abandon their responsibility. Those People (the ones who are “different”) will do alright, even though they don’t really fit into the school situation. It’s okay, though. They’ll compensate and make good — see what (Name Famous Person Here) did?

Only for every Einstein their are countless nameless others who didn’t have the resources to make up for an educational setting that didn’t fit (whether academically, socially, or emotionally).

This is especially true with teachers who are dealing with a kid who is “smarter” than they are — hey, those kids are just a mystery, but they’re smart… they’ll make it (and darn it, they have it easier than I did… I had to *work* to get through that Education degree!)

Here was the headline on MSN today.

Did Michelangelo Have Autism?
Aloof, Obsessed, Self-Absorbed — Yet One of History’s Greatest Artists

By Jeanie Lerche Davis

Reviewed By Brunilda Nazario, MD
on Wednesday, May 26, 2004
WebMD Medical News

May 26, 2004 — Classic tortured genius: The great artist Michelangelo may have suffered from autism, new research shows.

The report, which appears in the Journal of Medical Biography, provides a synthesis of new evidence about the famous 16th century artist, renowned for painting the Sistine Chapel in Rome.

“He was a loner, self-absorbed, and gave his undivided attention to his masterpieces — a feature of autism,” writes lead researcher Muhammad Arshad, PhD, a psychiatrist at Five Boroughs Partnership NHS Trust in Great Britain.

“Michelangelo met the criteria for Asperger’s disorder, or high-functioning autism,” Arshad adds.

In his report, Arshad outlines research into the great artist — taken from numerous works, including notes from the artist’s assistant and his family. It all points to high-functioning autism, he says.

Autism is a complex disorder that does not affect intelligence. But it does impact how people perceive and process information. Difficulty communicating, social isolation, a need for control, and obsession with very specific interests are hallmarks of autism. For some people, all this makes daily functioning quite difficult. Others get along fairly well, even attend regular schools.

Michelangelo likely suffered from high-functioning autism, called Asperger’s syndrome, says Arshad. Some of his evidence:

The men in Michelangelo’s family “displayed autistic traits” and mood disturbances. His family described him as “erratic” and “had trouble applying himself to anything.” As a child and young man, he did not get along with his family and suffered physical abuse.

The artist was aloof and a loner. The artist’s mentor described Michelangelo as being unable to make friends or to maintain any relationship. He did not attend his brother’s funeral, which underlined “his inability to show emotion,” writes Arshad.

He was obsessed with work and controlling everything in his life — family, money, time. Loss of control caused him great frustration. He was able to generate, in a short time, many hundreds of sketches for the Sistine ceiling — no two alike, nor any pose similar. He gave his undivided attention to his masterpieces.

He had difficulty holding up his end of a conversation, often walking away in the middle of an exchange, writes Arshad. He had a short temper, a sarcastic wit, and was paranoid at times. He was bad-tempered and had angry outbursts.

He rarely bathed, and often slept in his clothes including his boots. “He has sometimes gone so long without taking them off that then the skin came away, like a snake’s, with the boots,” wrote the artist’s assistant.
“Michelangelo’s single-minded work routine, unusual lifestyle, limited interests, poor social and communication skills, and various issues of life control appear to be features of high-functioning autism,” Arshad concludes.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––—

SOURCES: Arshad, M. Journal of Medical Biography, June 2004: vol 12, pp 115-120. WebMD Medical Reference from Healthwise, “What is autism?”