IQ test scores RE: my 6 yo failing K again!

I cut and pasted this (see below) from a website and I can’t remember where it originally came from. It gives a brief description of each subtest. The average range on subtests is 8-12. Go to “LD in Depth” on this website under Assessment and read “Understanding Tests and Measurement for the Parent and Advocate”. Then you will really understand more than many educators.

Notes: Subtests in square brackets are optional. Verbal subtests are those with semantic items, performance subtests are those with pictorial items. All verbal subtests require that the child interpret meaning from the English language in some way. Performance subtests could be given and responded to without using language at all, merely by pointing at examples and available materials, for example.
Verbal Subtests
Information - (1) Fund of general knowledge; (2) Factual knowledge, long-term memory, recall; (3) This measures how much general information the child has learned from school and at home.
Similarities - (1) Verbal abstract reasoning; (2) Abstract reasoning, verbal categories and concepts; (3) This measures the child’s ability to think abstractly. The child decides how things are different or alike.
Arithmetic - (1) Numerical reasoning, attention and short-term memory for meaningful information; (2) Attention and concentration, numerical reasoning; (3) This is not pencil-and-paper arithmetic. Rather it measures verbal mathematical reasoning skills by giving the child oral problems to solve.
Vocabulary - (1) Knowledge of word meanings; (2) Language development, word knowledge, verbal fluency; (3) The child explains that a word means by defining or describing what it does. The dictionary definition is not the only acceptable answer.
Comprehension - (1) Social comprehension and judgment; (2) Social and practical judgment, common sense; (3) This measures how well your child can think abstractly and understand concepts
[Digit Span] - (1) Short-term auditory memory for non-meaningful information; (2) Short-term auditory memory, concentration; (3) This measures a child’s ability to remember a sequence of numbers (both backwards and forwards). This sub-test is optional and does not have to be included in your child’s assessment
Performance Subtests
Picture Completion - (1) Attention to visual detail; (2) Alertness to detail, visual discrimination; (3) The child looks at pictures and tells the examiner what part is missing
Coding - (1) Visual-motor skills, processing speed; (2) Visual-motor coordination, speed, concentration; (3) This section measures a child’s ability to decipher a code and copy the correct symbols in a controlled period of time.
Picture Arrangement - (1) Attention to visual detail, sequential reasoning; (2) Planning, social logical thinking knowledge; (3) This requires a child to put pictures in order so that the story they tell makes sense. It measures their ability to create the whole from its parts.
Block Design - (1) Visual abstract ability; (2) Spatial analysis, abstract visual problem-solving; (3) Unlike picture arrangement, where the child is given the parts and makes up the whole, this test measures the child’s ability to look at the whole first, then break it into parts, and finally to reconstruct the whole. It provides blocks and pictures, and the child must put the blocks together to re-create what’s in the picture of the blocks
Object Assembly - (1) Part-whole reasoning; (2) Visual analysis and construction of objects; (3) The child is given puzzle parts and must complete the puzzle. It measures a child’s ability to make a whole out of its parts.
[Symbol Search] - (2) Visual-motor quickness, concentration, persistence (note: new with WISC III)
[Mazes] - (1) Graphomotor planning, visual-motor coordination and speed; (2) Fine motor coordination, planning, following directions; (3) The child has to find the way out of a maze by using a pencil. Performance is also based on time.

In simple terms-because my knowledge is simple-

Hes a delightfully average kid who is more likely to learn from visual and hands on experiences than verbal/lecture style teaching

Block Design is the single best indicator of overall intelligence in the performance arena(think non-verbal, not perform like a dog)

I pulled that tidbit from

http://childparenting.about.com/cs/learningproblems/a/wisciii.htm

I have heard, but cannot quote a source, that the similarities subtest is the best predictor of verbal intelligence

Verbal intelligence tends to correlate more with school success.

I know-thats a big ouch!

But it may simply mean hes going to be an engineer!!!!!!!

My verbal and math SATs were only a few points apart. My brothers math SATs were a few points from perfect(high 700s)but his verbal barely hit 500.

Guess whos a computer engineer and who meeks out a living in social services????-LOL

Hi Marycas,

Just a question you might be able to answer. I never gave it much thought but my SAT scores were a 540 verbal and 430 math. When I was evaluated for adhd I was given the wechsler and scored 121 on verbal and 80 on performance (the block design was HECK). I just never gave it much thought until recently how the difference in the two SAT sub scores should have been a clue that something was awry. I noticed looking at average test scores from ETS that most people score fairly close on both parts. What do you think?
My highest math and science classes in high school were Alg 1 and biology so possibly I was tested on things that I had not actually done.

best wishes,
Amy

Ive heard a 12-15 point difference between the 2 IQ types indicates a possible ‘issue’

You would certainly fit the model

I’m not surprised your SATs followed the pattern but you’re right-once you throw in what hs courses you took, it gets a little murky! I dont think my brother took much in the way of AP-he just was naturally talented in that area(as is my older nephew)

So, what career have you ended up in?

the source for the notion that “Similarities” is the best overall indicator of verbal intelligence was likely the “understanding tests and measurements…” article right here on LD online.

The lower verbal subtests in information and similarities stick out to me. In the following article on the WISC IQ both of these test measure long-term memory. I wonder if your son may have problems in this area.

http://childparenting.about.com/cs/learningproblems/a/wisciiisubtest.htm

“Long-term memory is the system that maintains knowledge, information and procedures permanently or over extended periods. The retrieval of information from long-term memory, known as long-term memory access, involves the capacity to recall information that has been stored over a period of time.

Students with weak memory access have difficulty locating or activating knowledge from long-term memory. Students may reveal problems with recognizing patterns, triggering associations, transferring strategies and/or activating rules. Content areas, such as spelling, math, language, as well as behavior and social skills may be affected. Students may also have particular problems with recall access, retrieving information or skills with little or no cueing. ”

from Mel Levine article: http://www.allkindsofminds.org/learningBaseSubSkill.aspx?lbssid=87

It might be an area to have assessed further.

The long term memory could defininately be the prob. He is having trouble remembering the letter sounds. So, reading is a VERY big struggle. We go to the ped today, so maybe he will be able to tell us something other than “here’s some Adderall”!! I’m so worried that the doctors will try to quick fix the problem with meds. We are already trying Strattera. BUT I really wish I would have waited on giving the meds until we had a full evaluation. THe neuropsych can’t see us until January though. There must be so many children going through these problems.

Anyway….I didn’t mean to ramble. Thanks for your suggestions.

Cheryl

What did the evaluator say about the testing? IQ testing alone, esp. in a 6yo, isn’t enough to investigate school problems. Why was the WISC III given? The new WISC IV is a totally different test that gives far more info. about the child’s learning style.

SAR,
Hi. I’m not sure why the WISC III was given. My pediatrician wanted an IQ test & Vanderbilt assessment done. The school counselor did the testing. She has not discussed the results with me. I’m not sure if she even plans to.

Well, I guess correctly about what the ped would do. It was— “Here’s some Adderall, it works better than Strattera. His IQ is high enough that he should not be having problems in school. Maybe if we can get the ADHD under control the other problems will just go away.”

CHeryl

The WISC III is an IQ test. If the Dr. asked for an IQ test that is why. It was our family pediatrician who pegged my daughter’s ADD especially after she had been failing in school for years…Once we tried meds it was like a light bulb was turned on in her brain…

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain because he will know right away if they are helping him focus better. Not to mention if he gets his ADD ways under control now he will just take off and be able to establish good habits for studying and being organized.

I know that is the answer you were dreading but, one way to look at it might be to eliminate things one at a time

There are connections between memory and ADHD. I dont understand them-its just a concept I see tossed out there on a regular basis. I’d sure like to learn more about that connection because that long term memory paragraph from Levine sounded very much like my son

For us, Adderall helps(yes, more than Strat)

I often question if my son is indeed ADD but I DONT question that the meds help. I think Ive gotten past the need for an acceptable diagnosis and/or label and have just focused on the fact that this helps my kiddo. If next year someone develops a blood test for ADD and my son tests negative, I will still lobby to keep him on the meds

It doesnt matter if its ADD, CAPD, PDD, or some D we havent come up with yet ;)

The result is what its all about

Does that make any sense? I guess what Im saying is you’ve already taken one big step and tried the Strat-take a few weeks with the Adderall and see. If its not for you, move on to a next step

JMHO

I really hate the ideal of him having to be on meds for life. I’m always thinking “what if it’s not adhd, & the med is just masking another problem?” I don’t have a problem with the labels, I just want the correct dx. It seems like meds are taken by so many kids these days!

It seemed to me that my pediatrician was implying that Kaden did not have a learning disablity. Can he tell this from the IQ test? He said, “there is no reason for him not to be learning with a 94 IQ.”

Maryca, your comments did make sense!

Patti, I was referring to the WISC III vs. WISC IV, re: SAR’s question about why the III was used instead of the IV. I hope you are right about the lightbulb going off. The 1st Sem is drawing close to the end. We need some solutions soon. First grade will be alot tougher!

Thank you all for your time!

I really hate the ideal of him having to be on meds for life. I’m always thinking “what if it’s not adhd, & the med is just masking another problem?” I don’t have a problem with the labels, I just want the correct dx. It seems like meds are taken by so many kids these days!

It seemed to me that my pediatrician was implying that Kaden did not have a learning disablity. Can he tell this from the IQ test? He said, “there is no reason for him not to be learning with a 94 IQ.”

Maryca, your comments did make sense!

Patti, I was referring to the WISC III vs. WISC IV, re: SAR’s question about why the III was used instead of the IV. I hope you are right about the lightbulb going off. The 1st Sem is drawing close to the end. We need some solutions soon. First grade will be alot tougher!

Thank you all for your time!

You have a child who is repeating K and is still not doing well. You are seeking an outside evaluation. If the NeuroPsych. evaluation shows that he has a disability then you are going to have to go back to the school. The school will not just take the assessment and give you an IEP. What they will say is that they have to assess and guess what they have 50 days to do that. Neanwhile time is slipping by and the year is almost gone.

What I suggest is that you NOW request in writing that the school do an assessment to determine if he is eligible for special education services. If you go to the following link show you a sample letter at the bottom of the page and then using the letterwriter you fill in your child’s data and bingo you have a letter which you can copy to your word processor and further edit if needed.

http://www.php.com/dopage/letterwriter

Requesting assessment now will speed up the process.

Helen

great link-one that makes that important step so much easier

THANKS

it is not the ‘DX’ that is the quest. What you need is the therapy that will help him — whether that is sped or meds, does not matter. You may have to try both — or one at a time — to see if it will work. The cause may be elusive — so you need to treat the symptoms, IMO.

I would not worry at this point about ‘meds for life’ because it is not necessarily so, even if he IS true ‘ADD’. In my opinion, meds are like a ‘maturity pill’ for some kids. YES, he may need them as an adult — or he may not. He may find a career where his add-style (if he is add!) is an asset, and if he has developed good habits and coping skills, may not require meds. Or he might…BUT don’t think into the future. Someone on this site told me early on, ‘Don’t worry more than one year in advance’ and that was good advice! What you need NOW is what will help him in Kindergarten and Gr. 1, get him reading, writing, and doing ‘rithmatic — and feeling good about himself as a learner!

You have two choices: 1) is meds — to see if the attention/memory is causing the learning problems. 2) is intensive 1-on-1 tutoring with an expert tutor who uses direct, specific phonics instruction but first uses multi-sensory methods to teach him those letters and the sound-symbol relationships. I have to admit that his profile is very different from my son’s so I would be listening to Marycas and Patti m — it may be that this will be your ‘puzzle piece’. Personally, I think I’d try BOTH. And go from there…

Don’t let the ‘anti meds’ rhetoric you hear make your decisions for you. YES, the meds may be over-used in some situations, but that should not mean that children who need them don’t get them! If you try meds and they DON’T help, I think you will know quite quickly. You will not have to worry about meds masking a mis-dx — because YOU will be in charge. If your son does not respond to meds and begin making progress — you will change your tactics. Often the sad stories you hear are when someone trusted a ‘one-way’ road and then sat back in denial once more — this will not be your case, since you will be monitoring his progress and changing your strategy if necessary.

It is really hard to accept our kids as ‘different’. But remember that we ALL have challenges — some more than others, but the point is to accept our challenges and keep attacking our troubles, keep improving our skills…

Those double negatives are getting to you. “There is no reason he should not be learning in school” translates to OK, his IQ is normal, his health is adequate, his eyes and ears work, he has no severe emotional traumas, and he *should* be able to learn in school. This is good news!
Now, time to get some intensive one-to-one tutoring, either do-it-yourself or get a good tutor, and focus on what he needs to know and how to communticate it to him most effectively. As the tutoring goes on look for clues to processing problems with vision and hearing, and continue research into vision and CAPD. But in the meanwhile your kid is basically OK and just needs a jump-start on this book-learning thing, and that is the news you wanted to hear.

Elizabeth & Victoria,
THank you guys for helping me see the big picture & not get discouraged. This is hard to deal with, but you guys sure do help. It’s nice to talk to others that understand.

Cheryl

I am ADD and have CAPD. I have taken meds on occassion to focus better and get things organized. However, I haven’t taken them for “life”. One of my 50 year old friends who has battled with ADD her whole life has found relief from taking Strattera and Adderall combined, and finally after years of trying to finish her masters degree is almost done!!

A child I provided Auditory therapy years ago is now 14. This kid was very involved as a youngster. Lots of anxiety, distractibility, inconsistent performance, immaturity and instead of treating the ADD, they spent tens of thousands of $$ on Vision Therapy, CAPD therapy, Somonas, the Listening Programme, special schools for LD’s and making very slow progress over years of this intervention as reading and writing skills were still at the 2.5 to 3rd grade level. Now she is on meds to treat the ADD and she is out of the LD school and into a regular school :-D

Dealing with LD’s and executive functioning disorders is like putting a puzzle together, you have to try different things until something fits. But what I have discovered as a parent and clinician is that if the child can’t focus and internalize what I am trying to teach them it takes FOREVER to remediate. You can find a tutor but you may end up spending lots of money and not getting the results you want because of the way his brain is working.

Your physician has a good point, your son has the potential but what he lacks is the executive functioning skills to be successful. It is worth it to try what your Dr. wants to do to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn’t then try something else because you may not get a “true diagnosis” of what his problems are but you are doing something positive about assisting him and that is what counts.

I am one who did spend thousands with positive results. I am glad I tried other things before meds but I think that all situations are different and for us there was something that really stuck out (his visual motor deficit) that could be treated and yes almost cured without meds. The word cured is such a strange word to use in these circumstances because I believe we all walk around with deficits. None of us are perfect and therefore we will never be cured.

The thing is, you just don’t know until you try. I think others who have expererienced success are told, “It was probably just developmental.”

I have a bit of a problem with that. Most don’t talk about their children as being LD if they are declassified and functioning well in a regular classroom after therapy. I think most would rather just consider their children as not having a problem so they accept that it was probably developmental.

So, I say do what you have to but try to get more specific information than what you have been handed so far.

I am someone who likes specifics. Give me something that makes sense that isn’t just word soup mumbo jumbo.

We would never accept these vague terms from a medical professional. Imagine going in with a headache and being told you have cerebral discomfort. “Well yeah, I knew that thanks.”

Isn’t that the same thing that happens when you bring your child in who has writing difficulties and get told they are dysgraphic which literally means difficulty with writing?

So, demand specifics.

For those who would rather try everything else before trying meds, I ask you to consider the story of my husband. At 45 years old, after years of battling depression and a lifetime of never feeling that he was in control , he was diagnosed with ADHD. As a child he would never have been described as hyperactive and he was always able to manage a B average. He is highly intelligent, extremely well-read yet always lived his life on the razor’s edge of careening out of control because he just couldn’t keep track of everything. It affected his career, it affected his family life and it affected, severely, how he viewed himself. He received counseling and medication for his depression, and although it helped, it was never enough. He is not a lazy man — he trys harder than anyone I know — but to those on the outside it may have looked like laziness. Finally, when he had reached the lowest point ever, his ADHD was diagnosed and medication was prescribed. It turned his life around. Finally he was able to tune out all of the distraction and use his hard work to achieve results rather than just spin his wheels. It is wonderful to see him finally happy and able to benefit from organizational strategies that were just another burden before. He remains himself but in a happier, more confident version. When we were children, no one really knew about ADHD and, although medications were used, that use was rare. Who knows what pain he might have been spared had he been diagnosed and treated when he was young. I understand why people want to rule out other diagnoses first, but if the diagnosis is firm, there may be much to gain from trying some kind of medication. By the way, my husband takes Strattera, not a stimulant, but if the Straterra didn’t work, stimulants would not be a problem for him.

My husband’s story is similar not that he ever experience emotional difficulties because of his deficits ( I chalk that up to really stable parenting.) He did not finish college and has always worked much harder than everyone else because he has a visual motor deficit. He has a great personality and is the type of person people gravitate to. He is always upbeat and positive. He wakes up singing. Because of this he has been very successful in the business world despite not finishing college.

I wish he had received the vision therapy that my son has recieved because if he had I can’t even imagine how far he would go.

He is not add, he is very focused and driven. He is organized and pretty together overall. Reading for long periods of time still gives him headaches. He takes motrin almost every day.

I am not in denial about add, I think it is possible that I may have it. He just doesn’t.

I am excited for my son’s future because he has received the specific help that my husband just did not receive.

He has my husband’s verbal gifts and stellar personality. I think he will go far.

Linda,

Perhaps if your husband got some glasses this would help the headaches and maybe he would benefit from eye therapy now. It is just a thought…been there myself.

I had 2 eye surgeries for Strabismus, and YEARS of eye therapy and I STILL have depth perception issues as an adult. I wear contacts so I can see up close and far away. I am a good artist and create depth in my paintings but I have problems with figure ground, stepping down stairs poses problems and I have been known to go flying on my face, also I am horrible at hitting balls that are moving like tennis balls and baseballs, but I can make a mean 3 pointer in basketball ‘cuz it ain’t moving…:-D

Well, patti, you beat me because I can’t usually even hit that non-moving basketball net. I have zero depth perception — so bad I failed the control question, the one to make sure that children understand the instructions, didn’t even get to the actual tests. Also broke my ankle on my own stairs, unobstructed, a few years back.
Glasses *definitely* can help headaches. Yes, this is something to look into — and see an ophthalmologist and get a complete workup (takes at least half an hour or more).
I did some self-directed vision therapy studying art and calligraphy and graphic design, and learning to direct my focus helped a *lot* in many fields of life — I was always a good reader but now I get lost less, bump into fewer things, and recognize faces better, well better than zero anyhow. So I definitely like the idea of vison therapy and why not, even for a young adult (probably too late at my age but you’ve got a few decades left.)

My husband has contacts and has been to several of the best in the business for his eyes. He has strabismus that I never noticed until we went to my son’s dev optometrist and he pointed it out.

He has very poor ocular motor control. I know this because he has trouble with the tracking exercises that I did with my son. He desperately needs vision therapy but I just don’t see him doing it. I heard a similar complaint from an adult neighbor (very successful but grew up dyslexic.) He stated that he was having a very difficult time reading all the contracts required in his new job. I asked him to track a pencil and low and behold he just couldn’t do it.

One thing to add, I don’t think these visual issues are just one thing. I have learned there are many visual subskills. There is the ocular motor component and then separately the perception issues. One effects the other but they are not neccessarily the same thing. I have a friend who is visual/motor gifted but still has tracking issues. My son is quite able to visualize a story but can’t visualize his spelling words. In vision therapy we worked on the ocular motor issues first and then we worked on visual memory, visual spatial issues and other subskills including motor timing, laterality etc. It was great because the doctor understood the specific areas of deficit and designed a program that addressed each specific deficit.

It was similar to a combonation of pace, audiblox or balametrics but more personalized.

I do believe that for some people glasses can be enough.