Dyslexic and NLD?

How old/what grade level is your son? The question to ask is, with these above average(except coding) scores and specialized intervention why is he not making academic progress in line with his above average IQ? I must admit that I would be concerned about this lack of motivation/retreat into fantasy in a specialized school. Why was Aspergers dismissed? The NVLD kids I have known have been very aware of their academic and social struggles, but the Aspergers kids were oblivious to their social differences and did not have academic problems until middle school or high school.

Hey SAR,

H’e 10 1/2 and in 5th grade. He is highly motivated and is often described as having great perseverence.

We are concerned about the fantasy, how it interferes with his learning, and what it may mean in the future if continues to fantasize at inappropriate times. In fact 3 years ago, following his first evaluation, he was evaluated by a psychiatrist to make sure it wasn’t the tip of another whole iceberg. His fantasies are logical, coherent and he isn’t depressed. They seem to be a product of his imagination,as well as a coping tool for him ie, he gets bored or stressed out and goes inward. If that makes sense . What would your concern be specifically?

He is making progress academically in terms of his remediation. What did you see that prompted concern about his academic achievement relative to his IQ? I think that is a very good question and one I didn’t ask the tester. (ie is his progress what it should be….?)

Aspergers has been ruled out by several people (neurologist, psychologist and psychiatrist) b/c he doesn’t have an obsessional interest, has a strong desire to connect with other children and is not unrelated. My son is aware of his differences, but its the dyslexia that was/is most obvious I think because its pretty apparent when you can’t read, and because his social skills are not great, but not horrible. He’s socially quirky, but not as severe as the AS and NLD kids I know of.

Tell me what you were thinking when you looked at the results…! thanks

Karen,

I had similar sorts of conclusions from a neurologist several years ago. He told me my son was dyslexic, had a nonverbal learning disability (I too think he used the term fairly loosely) and did not have Asbergers. The only difference in diagnosis was that my son was diagnosed with ADD as well. He also scored poorly on object assembly (5) and picture completion (6). These two tests require part to whole visualization.

The neurologist told me that the combination of deficits would make remediation difficult (not that I needed to be told that!)

He also told me that kids with severe learning disabilities like my son are almost always ADD.

Do you think that anxiety alone accounted for your son’s previously low coding test scores? I guess I was thinking of the work you’d done with IM and vision therapy and that they may have impacted those scores. I don’t doubt that the 1 was lower than he actually was but hard for me to believe that anxiety could have lowered an actual 9 to a 1.

Beth

I had forgotten about the vision therapy until last night, and yes, it occurred to me that that may have remediated some of what created the low coding originally.

I was just comparing the 2 sets of scores (ok, obsessing over them if you must know) and it looks like both his verbal and performance scores have gone up, and that the gap is narrower. His FSIQ is 16 pts higher and although I don’t have all the subtest scores I believe I can extrapolate the overall trend. I find that heartening - I think that remediating and addressing the dyslexia is allowing him to perform closer to his real capabilities.

yesterday’s doctor basically hung his dx of NLD on the low object assembly (4) , ie he didn’t do the full battery of tests I know some kids go thru b/f getting an NLD dx. There’s no question my son has non-verbal weakness compared to verbal, and has many of the traits associated with it. But I don’t feel the severity of these traits really meets the diagnostic criteria. But as far as seeking remediation the approach would be the same.

Our doctor also said its hard to remediate perceptual weakness and we should concentrate on building his compensatory strengths, while making sure he’s in a structured school environment. I wish we had neuronet near us, I feel like all these other therapies that supposedly get at these issues aren’t comprehensive enough.

Karen,

I do think having NLD at the level of a syndrome is different than nonverbal weaknesses. My son’s social skills have actually improved as he has matured rather than getting relatively worse, which would be more typical of NLD, I think. I also did see a big jump in connectiveness after doing IM and some more NN. We did IM the summer of the neurologist evaluation and followed up with more NN. My family, who lives out of state, then saw him for Thanksgiving. They commented how much more connected he seemed. Before he seemed more in his own world. Today I would say he is very normally socially (we did hold him back one grade last year so he is socially immature with age mates but normally developing) except that he doesn’t get some jokes and less literal language (requires specific instruction). It doesn’t seem to cause him any problems socially though.

Our NN provider told me a few months ago that she thought my DS would read for pleasure and that in the long run the nonverbal weaknesses would be more problematic for him. Despite all the progress he has made, I still am not holding my breath waiting for that prediction to come true! We are trying one last round of NN to try to remediate those underlying nonverbal issues. But, unlike your son, my son still struggles a bit with math. He was in special ed for math in first and second grade. He gets Bs now but I worry about the gaps I see in his learning and how much work it is to get him to that point and that middle school may be more of a problem.

Our NN provider does work long distance with people, if you should ever decide it was something you’d want to pursue. Her office is only a very short distance to the beach so could be combined with many fun things (especially in the dead of winter!)

I think you should be heartened by the gains in IQ you have seen. At the very least, your efforts have made even more clear what a intelligent son you are raising. Have you seen any change in the relative difference between verbal and nonverbal IQ?

Beth

Beth , I agree with you, and I’ve done enough reading and talking to people to come to the conclusion that my son does not have full blown NLD.

I do believe the verbal/performance gap has closed, but I don’t have all the numbers, and of course they don’t report it that way. But just looking at the %tiles I can see that his non-verbal performance is stronger than it was 3 years ago.

I also feel that his social performance is better than it was, which is not the expected trend for an NLD child at this age. I am watching the math side of things though. He has always been very strong in thsi area, but some of yesterday’s test results showed him as strong but not exceptional. After I get the report I need to see if this is a predictable NLD math weakness revealing itself as the work gets more complex, or just a testing abberation. His school did achievement testing at the end of 4th grade and he scored in the 99%tile (untimed!) so I’m not sure what’s going on.

There is no question that emotionally and socially he functions better now than 3 years ago and I think the results are there in the IQ testing. But boy its hard imagine him in a mainstream classroom. His academic fluency is verylow across the board. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

no time to post at length…but remember: a kid who is gifted in imagination is not likely to get any positive strokes for that gift! ESPECIALL from schools or psychs. This is my opinion, heated and heart-felt:

He’s an artist/writer/creative type. It is NORMAL for us to be lost in the world of imagination. It’s what we do best, it’s what fuels our souls.

Yes, if he was allowed to fantasize 24/7 and never be pushed to develop skills (life and academic) to live in the real world, this could become a huge problem. But I already respect you as a parent — this isn’t going to happen at your house!

The imagination is his gift. Nurture that as carefully as you are remediating the deficits. WOW that digit span…do I remember correctly that he is interested in theatre, or am I mixing him with another kid?

Work with the talents and see him as unique — you won’t go wrong, I promise. You already have all the valuable info you need. Discard the labels, since they’ve been useful to get what you need — info for remediation, school supports, etc — otherwise, the labels are man made — not God given!

“He’s a Boy and Not a (Blinking!) Can of Peas” is a heated poem I wrote in a rebellious mood of ant-labelism…maybe someday I’ll post it here!

Karen,
It’s not what I’m seeing, it’s why the concern on your or the school’s part(ie why was he tested in the first place)? If he is doing fine with specialized schooling and therapy for anxiety, why test/retest? All kids have strengths and weaknesses, and I feel bright kids have more pronounced ones than average kids. I would ask the evaluator and the school, is he progressing the way one would expect given his strengths(IQ) and weaknesses(slower processing of visual symbols-that’s what coding tests)? If not, why not. What does the school say about his daily living and social skills? This is the area to pay attention to in the future.

OK SAR, I see what you mean. Yes the school did raise the issue of attention . He zones out and misses instructions and material that ‘s being taught. This is not a new issue. But I didn’t pose the question to the tester of whether his progress is happening at the expected or acceptable rate. (I suspect he could learn more/faster, but quantifying the impact of his attentional issue is difficult. Is it enough to warrant a medical approach in a child who is not ADD?) The school’s mission is to remediate and then mainstream, so they want kids to get as much as possible out of their program. I intend to ask that question, thanks for articulating it for me!

The retesting was suggested by the school as a way to tease out what is anxiety, attention, or any other explanation for his inattentive behavior. Since it had been 3 years and much remediation later, I was interested in seeing the results.

I agree that the focus is now on how he functions in general , and socially, particuarly since the reading issue is being remediated. I believe that despite his quirks, he functions better than he used to socially.

By the way, his coding improved to a 9 this go around (thanks to therapy and VT?) but the one real low score was Object Assembly which dropped from an 8 to a 4. I’m still trying to understand what this means, and what if anything we can do to build compensatory skills.

My son has so many similar characteristics to all of your sons. We struggled with diagnosis and remediation and school etc. He is now 17 and I can say that everything has improved. His social skills, his reading, his comfort level with himself and others are all better. Much credit goes to the private ld school he attends. They nurture, but also challenge him. His reading fluency has improved greatly with Read Right. His gifted intelligence and imagination continue to shine. We recently talked about how when he was younger he did not have as much control over his imagination. He still is wonderfully creative and looking at creative careers, but he has control over his imagination. He is healthy and happy, with a bright future.

Angela, I swear you made me cry! Mostly I feel pretty hopeful these days, but sometimes when I witness a particuarly awkward social interaction, or see him get really stressed out I worry how we are going to get him ready to be an independent adult. He’s very bright, but still needs so much protection . Its nice to know there are success stories out there.

Karen, I know how lonely this journey is and it helps to know there are others traveling this same road. Just a few little notes. His imagination has helped him write (dictate) a novel, video game stories and his own jokes for a stand-up comedy routine. He sent an audition tape off to a club manager and was asked to perform at a future show. Socially, he has taken an interest, on his own, in watching football and playing basketball, so he has things to talk about with other kids. The school and home situation are still sometimes isolated, but we are planning for college where he can live in a dorm and be on campus for activities. We just keep trying things and encouraging him. He gets tired or just needs to withdraw sometimes, so we give him some time alone. When he expresses motivation again, we are there to help him get back out there. We have our hard times, but basically our love and care have paid off and it has been worth the effort.

Angela,
I found this board 3 years ago , after receiving the results of our first Neuropsych.evaluation, when I didn’t understand what it all meant. The parents and teachers I’ve met here have been incredibly helpful, taught me more than anyone else and provided alot of companionship on the journey.

I can only hope that in 8 years when my son is ready for college that I can report back the same wonderful results you’ve achieved.

Hi Elizabeth, thanks for always voicing so beautifully the perspective of the imaginative adult!

Unfortunately my son is too self conscious to go out for drama usually. This past summer though he wanted to try out for the musical at his sleep away camp. Well, he didn’t get a part b/c he couldn’t read well enough or fast enough to audition on the fly. Of course with his auditory memory he obviously could have memorized the lines. I spoke to the camp director so that if he wants to try again next summer they’ll let him memorize his audition. I think drama would be wonderful for him.

I agree that his imagination is his gift, and he values it very much. He refers to the types of kids he connects with as “imagination boys” as opposed to “sports boys” or “gothic boys” . But he does need to learn how to turn it off when its not appropriate.

Angela,
What is Read Right?

Karen, I wouldn’t worry so much about your son’s imagination. Sometimes these kids are just a little developmentally behind (instead of being like a 10-year-old they are more like a 7-year-old, and next year he’ll be more like an 8-year-old…it’s kind of like that story “Leo the Late Bloomer”). Eventually they get there. Using lots of langauge and imagination is probably good for brain development.

Read Right (www.readright.com) is a program that approaches reading from a fluency point of view. An explanation that I understood is to look at reading like an iceberg. The decoding part is the above the surface, but there is so much more that goes on in the brain. So, with a tutor over the phone, specific books and tapes, my son reads a sentence, sometimes more, until it is perfect. Twice a week for an hour our son reads aloud to his tutor. He practices with Read Right selections the other days of the week. He has been at it for more than a year, but he wants to continue, and he would never read to me for such length. My son’s scoial studies teacher stopped me on campus this year to praise his improved reading. She taught him in 10th grade when he could not read well. He now has her again in 12th grade and she was so amazed to hear him read aloud from the history text book. As with any program, we hoped 6 months wouldl do it. We are almost triple that but we all agree it has really helped. Plus, no driving to appointments, just pick up the phone and he’s there.

Karen,
How nice to have some updated testing and it sounds like your son has had a lot of improvement in some of his scores. I understand about obsessing about them. I do the same thing!

Angela, thanks for your experience and support. You give many of us hope for our children and their future. Sometimes I worry quite a bit about my son too and it’s nice to know there’s still time for growth and accomplishment (sometimes it’s hard to remember that).