Want to Use Barton, but ds failed Screening C

Hi. I tutor kids who have real difficulties and who often start at near zero. If you would like copies of my tutoring outlines/book in progress, I email them free on request. Just ask at [email protected]

You might want to double check with Susan Barton to make sure. Otherwise, check out speech pathologists in the area and see if they do it.

What I would try is BrainSkills (http://www.brainskills.com). This is a home-based cognitive skills training program that works to develop attention, visual and auditory sequencing, short-term visual and auditory memory, working memory, reasoning and logic, auditory processing skills, etc. The program consists of about 33 different exercises, each of which is broken down into graduated levels. There are benchmarks for each exercise that tell you when to move to the next level. (And levels that are too difficult can be broken down into smaller steps.) This program would likely provide enough skills development to get your son to the Barton level you need.

Nancy

Geez. Why is all this stuff so expensive?? I’m beginning to think only rich people can help their children. How discouraging.

Dawn K.

If the problem is specifically auditory awareness, then I think LiPS is the best thing. However if it appears to be more of a memory or sequential memory type thing, you might try something like Audiobox, which I think is not expensive (don’t have any experience with it though) or Brain Skills. You can kind of tell if it was a memory or sequential memory problem if your child could give the sounds at the moment, but wasn’t able to carry over to repeat them with the blocks. (BTW, I have used the program successfully with kids who could not hold the sounds in their head just long enough to pull down the tiles, so I am not sure it is entirely necessary.) Another thing is if the child could hear most of the sounds but wasn’t really able to repeat them in order. If you said “/l/ /r/ /k/” and the kid says klr or something like that. That is sequential memory versus a really more serious auditory processing problem.

IF it is a real auditory processing problem I think Sue Barton is quite right to want the kid to have LiPS first. You can get them from point zero to reading but it is much harder without that kind of background.

One thing is that the task is very unusual and that *some* kids should actually be taught the task. I know that Barton will never say this. BUT it is a very hard task. I have actually given kids easier two sound combinations first and they do better, as the task is not so unusual. If you suspect that might be an issue you can write me.

As for where to find a LiPS person, I think your best bet is a speech pathologist/therapist. You can look in the phone book for “Speech and Hearing Association of ____ (state or municipality or Greater municipality).

—des

Thanks Des. He has a hard time distinguishing between /s/ and /sh/ and /ch/. Also the /j/ and /v/.

But the memory part was the big problem Friday night. I gave him the test Saturday morning again when he was not tired and also did it in my bedroom away from the rest of the household (I have 6 children ages 10 & under, so it is noisy) and he did much, much better.

I’m going to continue working on this exercise with him while I wait for the $$ to come in to order Barton’s Levels 1 & 2 and do Audiblox (which I have).

Thanks!

Dawn K.

I don’t think it is exactly legit to teach the test to him. That way he would know the test and not necessarily be able to hear the difference between actual sounds which is one of the reasons for the test. What I was suggesting that you teach him HOW to take the particular test using alternative samples. If it took weeks and weeks to teach then I honestly don’t think he is able to do it, and shouldn’t do Barton. But I think that there are kids for whom it is just too novel a task. And it is possible your kid is one of those. Sue Barton would never recommend such a thing, but I think her background is more with older kids. One thing she did tell us in the cerification class is to get the kid to watch you when you give the test. The difference between j and v is quite different visually.

If it is just a few sounds he has trouble with then you could explicitly teach the difference. It’s what LiPS does. Give me a day or so and I can answer this question a little more fully or you can send me a message. It’s getting late.

—des

I wasn’t going to teach the actual test, but the concept of the test. I will use different sounds sequences. He passed it yesterday morning when I was able to get him away from the other kids and when he was fresh in the morning.

I would love any information you want to give me. Thanks!

You might still find him having difficulty with differences in sounds. The Barton system gives good guidelines on how to tell the various sounds apart. However, if you have any questions after you started I’d be happy to answer.

As per the cost— I think it is the first 3 books that hit the hardest. I actually had a kid go thru book 1 in a single session (this is very unusual!!). Then she went thru 2 in a month. By the time you get as far as book 4 you are going very slowly. I would somewhat doubt you can even get to 4 in a year with a young kid like that— you definitely will not get thru 4. If you take the cost of training which you would really need to work with your kid or the cost of tutoring, the Barton system is definitely cheaper. I don’t think the program is perfect for every kid though and I don’t think every parent should work with their kid. Just as a comparison, I charge $35/hr for tutoring. If your child went two times a week (I wouldn’t even consider less), that would be $280. All year and that would be $3360, if you never missed a session. Or you could go for some other training which might be in some other city involving room and board and airfare. (Of course, I am aware that just putting down the money can be difficult. You might check on ebay, an exchange forum, or putting up a notice saying you want to buy Book 1 on this forum. It is unlikely you would need any of it again and could recoup most of it.) The other books would be harder to buy, but you can buy tiles from Barton for $10 a level.
Of course you don’t get the guarantee.

BTW, in dealing with Sue Barton do NOT use email. She comes across very poorly for some reason. If you call her she is very nice and charming , so I have thought maybe she just doesn’t like email.

BTW, Auditory mom is/has used Barton. I don’t know about anyone else reading this.

—des

Thanks for all the information on Barton. We are actually planning on taking money out of dh’s retirement to purchase this. We’ll keep it in the bank and buy the levels as needed. I was upset about the prices in reference to BrainSkills.

I have several other children that I need to teach how to read so I will probably just use the Barton with them as well, even though they do not have any disabilities.

You may not want to use Barton with your nondisabled kids. Undoubtably it would be a very good program and would work very well, but it is very slow and teaches a lot of things that nondisabled kids will learn without instruction. You might be able to do a kind of “speed Barton” with them. After you have done it once, you may be able to “psyche it out” and figure out how to do it without so much script. I have been able to teach it now without all the scripted text. So you might think about that. You would likely be able to eliminate much of the multisensory input, ie tappign the vowels.

But I think you’ll like the program for your disabled kid. Such a young kid will probably like the program. A favorite with most of the kids (though hs kids do NOT like it) is making up sentences using different phrases. I sometimes saved that for last, as the kids liked it so much. I think the PA level (book 1) is very good and I would recommend it to someone who decides not to use Barton.

—de

Kids without the LD issues do *so* much intuitively. (You could probably read “plentinurgy” with correct pronunciation and accenting… even though it’s not a word. Most people *do* say a long e in “the” if it’s in front of a vowel - “the angels” but a schwa if it’s in front of a consonant - “the sky” - without realizing it.)
So, this may be a case where being slow and thorough really *is* jus tbeing slow and BORING :-) I’m afraid that’s probably what has caused that mythology of the Wicked Phonics Witch….

Yes, Sue, I was talking about prob. extra high speed Barton, skipping over many things. But I’m sure the typical program would be incredibly boring. Even so, I’m not sure you could really speed it up that much.
There are many things taught that I bet you never learned in school. For example, do you know that “ed” has three sounds: “d” as in fanned, “t” as in “capped” and “ed” as in “frosted”. Boy, I did not know that before. These kind of things do not need to be taught to non-disabled kids. I think you’re going to look at it and realize how intensive it is. There is a whole book on Phonemic awareness which is way more than the average kid would ever need.

IF you picked and chose very much you might piece something together that would be workable. But I would suggest something like Abeeceedaran(sp?— Janis knows this), Explode the Code (www.epsbooks.com), etc.

I still think that Barton is a good investmetn for a dyslexic kid.

—des

I’ve discovered that the author of ABeCeDarian (www.abcdrp.com ) was in my freshman college class :-) = and I would think it’s a program that could work with a variety of students, too… it’s streamlined. In my Googling I also found a program called “F.A.S.T.” that looks good, though I don’t have experience with it (http://www.fastlearningllc.com/pages/hilrsb.html - the author of that one’s going to be at teh IDA conference in Denver). It’s structured and systematic, but not as focused on mastery, which is where things get so tedious for the naturals.

It was one of my most dyslexic students, when I was dictating a standardized spelling test, who revealed to me that if a word ends in -tute or -tude, the vowel before it is an “i” (I checked… quietude and desuetude are exceptoins…) . Again, I’d never turned this into a conscious observation, just done it.

Yes, that was neat that Sue discovered she once knew Michael Bend!

I do agree with des that ABeCedarian would be better to use for teaching a non-LD child to read. And if it were my money, I’d consider trying the ABeCeDarian with the dyslexic child first. I realize it does not have the training videos, and that would be the downside for someone inexperienced. But the first level (A) would cost about $55. for the teacher and student materials. The next level (1st and second grade, B1 and B2) would cost about $71. Then the level (C) teaching prefixes, suffixes, and roots costs about $35.

Here are some pre- and post- test results I just posted on the ABeCeDarian list last night for my student (now beginning 3rd grade) who has been in tutoring for one year and has completed through the second level of ABeCeDarian:

“His oral reading fluency (GORT-4) increased from less than 1.0 grade
level to the 3.4 grade level (rate is now 2.7 and accuracy is 4.4
gr.). Word Attack scores (WRMT) increased almost three years, from
the 1.5 to the 4.4 grade level. And spelling (Test of Written
Spelling) increased significantly from the 1.0 grade level to the 2.7
grade level (considering they do not use a formal spelling program at
his school). (He started with a good sight word base and scored 2.0 on
WRMT Word ID a year ago. Word ID increased to the 2.7 grade level. Now
that he is reading more confidently, I’d expect that score to continue
to increase.) I do plan to continue tutoring him once a week, at
least, this school year to continue working on multi-syllable decoding
and fluency.”

I am just mentioning this because I am seeing ABeCeDarian work very, very well, and it is so inexpensive. I do think the training videos must be the primary expense of Barton. And that is certainly very valuable for anyone who does not have access to live training. I hope someday ABeCeDarian will also have some training videos.

Janis

I’m quite sure the videos are the expense in Barton, as her other materials are not expensive (though I wouldn’t say cheap). The tiles are $10 per level and the decodable books are also $10. I’m sure there is also the factor of low nos. of production.

I’d try the ABeCeDarian. If it didn’t work you could then do the Barton, and you would have this for your nondisabled kids. There are kids that just need more explicitness and more manipulatives. But you don’t know ahead of time just who those kids are. (OTOH, there are kids that need even more than Barton offers, for which there is LiPS.)

—des

I have other stuff for my non-disabled kids, although I may use what I learn through Barton if necessary to help them.

I was told I need an Orton-Gillingham multi-sensory program like Wilson Reading. I know Wilson is much, much cheaper, but it looks a lot harder for a busy homeschooling mom like me to implement. And I didn’t think the customer service was very helpful when I called, vs. Barton, when I was able to talk to Ms. Barton and she took some time to talk to me.

I will probably buy the first few levels of Barton when my dh’s money comes in. Unless I find some compelling evidence of something else. I’ve been trying other types of programs for several years now and I want something that will finally work for him.

des,

When you say “more manipulatives”, I am curious as to what you mean. I have only seen the PA level of Barton, so I am not aware of components it might have that other programs don’t.

Thanks,
Janis

Dawn,

The memory and processing speed issues just mean that you may have to repeat lessons (in any program) many times before he masters it. I think people give up on a program thinking it didn’t work, when in reality, the child has memory issues that require many more repetitions to learn the material.

Janis

Janis,

I suppose I should have said multisensory vs more manipulatives. The Barton program uses tiles to teach all the concepts in reading and spelling, something called “touch and say” where the child touches the tiles as s/he says them (and in spelling uses fingers with each sound); the color tiles for PA; rubber bands to teach accent/emphasis; along with writing on paper; etc.

I think with some kids all this is really overkill— they just don’t need it. It would definitely be the case for nondisabled kids but also for many ld kids. But for the kids that do need it, it definitely makes a difference.

Then there is the LiPS program that takes the multisensory to deeper levels where the kids feel the vibration in their throats and feel how breath they are making on various sounds. (BTW, many kids need this for the isolated sound or two, it is a nice thing to have in one’s chest of tricks.)

—des

About the LIPS program, if I just bought the TM, would that be enough for me to use to supplement if necessary?

I think LiPS would be difficult for anyone without training. For that matter, it is very difficult WITH training! I know des has used it, but she also already has had a lot of reading training. You might could get by if you ordered the LiPS videos (which are demonstrations, not full training), but that makes the price go up considerably.

des, ABeCeDarian uses tiles and has letter formation tied in (including language to use as the child forms the letter), tap-and-say for saying the sounds and word, say-and-write for saying each sound as it is written, etc. The other nice thing it has adapted from LiPS is the spelling and reading chains (phoneme manipulation). I’ve never heard of the rubber band idea…you’ll have to tell me about that sometime :-).

I just wanted to mention it, because I think sometimes people are not sure it is for dyslexic children, but it really is. I’ll be using it with two severely dyslexic boys this school year (4th and 5th grade non-readers), so I’ll have a real test of how it works with more severe cases and I’ll let you know. Although, with the most severe boy, I am starting out with the LiPS consonant and vowel introduction just to help him have an overview and learn a few sounds before starting ABCD. (Plus, I’m waiting on my ABCD materials so I have to have something to do!).

Incidentally, Michael Bend (ABCD author) is speaking at the IDA conference in Denver next month and I am going. Any chance you might be able to go?

Janis

[quote=”Janis”]I think LiPS would be difficult for anyone without training. For that matter, it is very difficult WITH training! I know des has used it, but she also already has had a lot of reading training. You might could get by if you ordered the LiPS videos (which are demonstrations, not full training), but that makes the price go up considerably.

This doesn’t mean I am recommending trying that. I was strongly advised against it here and elsewhere (and I wouldn’t disagree with the advice!). But I had a lot of free time and studied it for hours and hours (probably 100!). I agree with the videos. They are very helpful but only if you really know the info and not to teach it to you. (BTW, I was essentially doing things correctly!). I think the videos are wonderful— not so polished as the Barton videos. But in the end, you really have to understand the material first.

IF LiPS were the only option (a kid with very severe auditory problems) and you could lfind no teachers, some parents *have* done it. The people at LMB are surprisingly helpful— I certainly did NOT expect this. They helped me out quite a lot, and I did get help from people here. But it is not really the best option. I think the vowel circle is the most confusing thing to teach, btw.

>des, ABeCeDarian uses tiles and has letter formation tied in (including language to use as the child forms the letter), tap-and-say for saying the sounds and word, say-and-write for saying each sound as it is written, etc. The other nice thing it has adapted from LiPS is the spelling and reading chains (phoneme manipulation). I’ve never heard of the rubber band idea…you’ll have to tell me about that sometime :-).

Well not that I know much about Aabec, etc.

Yeah well it’s simple actually. Though I have found it not always useful to all students. It is to figure out accent or stress. If you have a two syllable word “cactus” say, you stretch out a fat rubber band as you say the syllables. The one with the most stress will have the longer pull. Some kids get this very naturally. Others do not. Some will outsmart the system by pullign the rubber band however they want it. It helps to put it into a sentence.

>I just wanted to mention it, because I think sometimes people are not sure it is for dyslexic children, but it really is. I’ll be using it with two =

From what I have seen it does.

>Incidentally, Michael Bend (ABCD author) is speaking at the IDA conference in Denver next month and I am going. Any chance you might be able to go?

Sadly so is Susan Barton and I cannot. I am just out of cash.

>Janis

—des

I am mostly interested in the LIPS program just to help him with the auditory processing issues that showed up during his Barton screening test. He did pass it the next day, though. I have some exercises to help him with those. Audiblox should do it.

Dawn,

What were the tasks that he missed on the screening test?
Maybe we could help you with those specific issues. I think des and I are in agreement that LiPS would be inappropriate without training, and still difficult with training.

des, thanks for telling me about the rubber band syllables! Neat idea! I’ll try to stop by Susan Barton’s booth at IDA.

Janis

I don’t know if she is having a booth or speaking. I got a little email that she was coming. (I am doubting she is going to have a booth, but I don’t really know for sure.)

Re: The Barton screening. If she passed the test but missed certain things like /s/ and /sh/, the program will teach you to help your kid hear these type of differences; same goes for things like /ch/ and /j/ etc.

—des

OK, then I won’t get LIPS at all. My ds had problems with sh-s-ch, getting them confused. Also ch-j. If Barton will help with that then I don’t need to get somethin else.

Well if you have any problems with those specifically, if Barton doesn’t answer it, I could prob. or some other fine person here. Briefly, the s, sh, and ch differ by how and how much breath is released. You can use a mirror and put your hand in front of your own mouth to discover the differences. You can then teach these to your kid. I can really help with this but that is the idea. The ch and j differ in that if you put your hand on your voice box for ch you shouldn’t feel vibration, and if you put your hand on the voice box for j you do. They look pretty similar on the lips. (Same with f and b as well as others btw). Be sure to follow the video on how to produce the sounds correctly. I spend lots of time on this. Make sure that you don’t add ‘uh’ to the end of your sounds. She talks about this. Younger children are easier to work with this ime.

If your child has only a few problems with this type of thing (enough right to pass the screen), then he shouldn’t have any problems with Orton based programs like Barton. If he has many problems, he will. You can always back up though. If you have undo problems (for example takes over 3 months— can’t go beyond A activities) with Bk 1, then I would go find a LiPs person. Generally at 2 times a week, bk one is completed in a month.

—des

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions and for giving me that information about the sounds. I’ll work with him on those sounds until I get Barton. We’re still waiting for dh’s check to come in. Ugh. It’s taking forever!

I suggest you use a couple of “locker mirrors”— pretty nice size (one for you to model the behavior). Compare the sounds /p/ and /b/ to start. They are only different in that /p/ doesnt’ vibrate the voice box (you can calll that “quiet” and /b/ does (you can call that noisy). You can then compare other sounds like /t/ and /d/; /k/ and /g/ ; /f/ and /v/; and then go to /ch/ and /j/. Have him look at his mouth with each pair. He should be able to figure do these independently.

Then you can compare the sounds /s/ and /sh/. Have him look at his mouth in the mirror. Exagerate the sounds and also have him look at your mouth. Kind of smile for /s/ and really purse your mouth out for
/sh/. Have him feel the air stream for /s/ and /sh/ and compare. Then go on to /ch/ (hint /s/ is a little stream of air; /sh/ is a continuous sound that you can hold, while /ch/ is a puff.

Send me a message adn I can send you the LiPS pictures for these.
This is sort of an amended course of LiPS! :-)
As I said, Barton does go thru this but she is going to tell you the same kind of things anyway. These aren’t some kind of secret society code. :-)

(LiPS compares all sounds in these ways: noisy or quiet; mouth position; air stream; and misc. And has cute names for these. /s/ and /z/ are skinny air; /sh/ is fat air and /ch/ and /j/ are fat pushed air. )

—des

How many levels of Barton do you think we’d get through in a year? I want to buy a year’s worth of levels when the checks come. I figured I’d buy to Level 4. Should I get the readers too, or do they come with the levels?

des — I think you should also note the different tongue positon for s versus sh and for z versus “zh” (the sound in the middle of measure, or French j)

s and z have the tongue down, with the tip behind the lower teeth, and sh and zh have the tip up on the palate, behind the t-d position

Victoria,
I didn’t want to get into too much detail. The mouth position difference is what I am going on and that is what they use in LiPS vs the tongue position (at least for those sounds). So what I did was give her something like LiPS 101. Yes, there is the “noisy” zh that matches the “quiet” /sh/ but I don’t think it is too useful for young kids. I have tended to de-emphasize it in LiPS (although it is in that program). The most common example I give kids is in the word “television”. I would guess in Quebec, you see a bit more of it.

MoK, I’m not sure how many levels you would get thru. You could just get Book 1 and see what you think (though it is completely different than other levels)— I think book 1 is great even if you didn’t do the rest of Barton. As for a guess, I think it is possible that you could get into but not not finish 4. But it really depends on the amount of time you spend per week; the amount of Phonemic awareness difficulties your kid has; if they reverse bs and ds; the raw intelligence; how good a tutor you are/and how comfortable you get with it; whether or not your kid “buys into” it and to what extent; etc. etc. There are many factors. One thing though is when you finish 4, you have a reader. They might not be a real polished or fluent reader, but you will see a really dramatic difference. The Barton tutors I have talked to feel that 4 is extremely difficult. One thing the kids really liked. It comes with a spell checker.

A kid with fair PA going in; who does not reverse bs and ds; with high intelligence with good motivation; and a good tutor is just going to do better. Nobody can guarantee the amt. of gains. I think the guarantee from Barton is that you will be happy with the progress or your money back. It doesn’t specify how many levels they will get thru in a year. The levels do not really follow grade levels. I’m pretty certain that at some point a nine/ten year old is just goign to max out, as the vocabulary will be too difficult, and a 9-10 year old is going to go a bit more slowly. BUT the great point is that you save a lot of frustration.

—des

I just ordered levels 1 & 2. When I get more $$, I’ll get 3, 4, 5. I want to make sure I don’t spend the $$. LOL