Sorry so many questions, I feel like I am asking way more than anyone else out there. I just am really frusterated ( not the right word ), because I don’t think the neuro-psych got things quite right and yet I am not the’proffessional’ so I don’t reallyknow where to look, or even what to ask. What I do know, is that someof her’observations’ that helped in her DX of my daughter are off. She met with her 2 times I have spent 11 years with her.
[b]First question[/b]: I was looking up WISC IV on this forum and found a discussion on scores being about 5-10 points lower than the WISC III [[u]’Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: WISC-IV vs WJIII’[/u]
is this correct and if my daughters overall was a 77, and part of this was due to her processing speed being only 78, but more so on her perceptual reasoning index being only 69, working memory was actually her highest at 94 would this possibly affected her score in relation to the above discussion?
Did that question make sense to anyone but me?
I guess it probably doesn’t apply in her case, because what I’m getting is; there would have to be a discrepancy between her processing and perceptual score, and while there is a discrepancy, it seems the discrepancy is in the wrong direction.?
As soon as her neur-psych and I talked after the evaluations, and she told me she was leaning towards a Dx of NLD, with an all around (global) LD I immidiatly searched the web for articles and sites on NLD, what I found did not fit my child. I understand that of course, all aspects aren’t going to fit, soI tried making certain aspects to fit, (eg; non recognition of non-verbal communication), actually that was really the main thing that sort of fit,rather that I could make fit. But then I ordered several books on NLD and the moreI read the more I know that I did not recognize the child they were describing, in my child.
I also ordered several books on children with LD’s, and have scoured this site and others looking up LD’s and dyslexia. I found that the social issues that we were attributing to defecits in reading body language are actually more likely related to the same LD’s that cause her difficulty in academics, (she definitly can read facial expressions, I have been deliberatly using facial expressions to express my disapproval with certain behaviours, and she has reacted with absolute understanding of what I was trying to convey, so the no reading body language idea kinda goes out the door on that one.
I have always suspected ADHD in my child and have already read several books and sites on ADHD, now there is the child I recognize, but with added LD’s possibly even dyslexia, although there is a question I have that makes me not so sure on ythe dyslexia (that will be addressed in question 3).
Ok, getting back to her observations, she wrote in the report that my dd lacked facial expression in their meetings, with no animation and with no smiles and few changes in expression over several hours.
She also mentioneds that my dd did not respond to her social overtures. Now, as those that are familiar witrh NLD know ‘flat facial expressions and little animation are typical for NLD children. BUT, and this is a big BUT, this is NOT typical for my child, she simply was not happy being in her office, she felt wierd, stupid, judged, scared, and frankly she really disliked the tester, whom she felt was judging her religious attire and our lifestyle (this what my daughter told me not something I guessed, she specifically asked her questions my daughter felt were out of line , concerning these things). Having said that, I guess that my daughter wouldn’t respond to her ‘social overtures’, instead she emotionally shut down. This is a child that typically can not stop talking and says what ever comes toher mouth, although she is getting better at self-control.
She said my daughter presents as serious (my child???), physically itchy, and melancholy.
[b]Executive function[/b]; she has difficulty with executive functions. True, totally. But, isn’t this also true of many children with ADHD? That is where I first read about executive controll functions, when reading about ADHD.
Lastly, she said my daughter had motoric restlesness,and said she had sloppy but legible handwriting, this was interesting because usually she has very nice handwriting, so I think it may have been due to her discomfort.
The above were her observations and I just don’t agree with some and others seem to also apply to ADHD or general LD’s.
Now, there was significant discrepancies between her verbal and nonverbal scores, but can’t that have something to do with the fact that she can’t read beyond a 2.5 grade level?
And how much effect will a lack of ability to focus , (which both she and I agree is severe in my dd’s case), combined with excessive impulsiveness, and a quickness to guess, affect a WISC score, or do they account for such issues in the test? I have no idea .
Now last question for tonight. Does the fact that her scores were so variable, the high scores being in VCI and WMI and low being PRI and PSI, rule out dyslexia? Because when I was looking up dyslexia her reading problems were so exact to the warning signs of dyslexia (though she had no early phonetic awareness issues, possibly because I taught her phonetic awareness before I taught her the names of the letters).
I apologize if I am repeating questions from earlier posts, or sound like I’m in some sort of denial, (I’m not, I just think she got the wrong label). I don’t feel comfortable talking to the neuro-psych until I have more facts straight, and I have no-one to talk to about these questions that has any clue what I am talking about other than the wonderfu;l people on this board, so please bear with me if I’m redundant at times. Also, I hope to meet with both the special education ofifcer at the PS I am enrolling her in (distance-learning school but connected to a ‘brick and mortar’ DCPS, and the potential tutor, assoon as schools are back in session from the break-. Maybe they can help me get a better grip on this.
Thanks, as usual.
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• I have cut and pasted part of your post to answer your questions…next time try to bullet the questions…it is hard to search through your verbiage to find your questions.. :-D
Sorry bout that, I was writing on my other computer (it doesn’t have Word on it), very late at night I will try to go back some time today and format it better if I still can use the edit option. I think I was rambling trying to get all my thoughts out before I forgot them.
• Kids with ADHD will usually score lower in working memory…that seems to be a strength for your daughter. Hallmark for kids with ADHD is during testing they will either be really inconsistent and you get lots of false positives….or you will get apathy and they give up right away-
Yes, she was very erratic and apathetic in her answers. Also as I said she really disliked this tester. She writes: “Her approach to tasks tends to be unsystematic, and variable with pace, failures to keep on track during task completion, and a high need for cueing and redirection. In the quiet, structured, one-on-one testing situation, ##### ability to sustain her attention and effort were variable. She is an itchy and physically restless child….. Her effort often had an uneven and erratic flavor…. She often fails to persist, tends to be passive in approach, and is quick to say “I don’t know”.
• Yes…that can have something to do with it…Did she give the TONI to test her non-verbal intelligence?
No, just the WISCIV, The Boston naming Test, and the WJIII, TAAS (she scored at 1st grade for this test), and RAS of which the tester wrote “her scores were well below average on all task conditions (i.e., objects colors, letters), indicating that her rap9d retrieval skills are poor.”
BEERY„(I think he did poorly on this one especially the trailmaking A), and the WRAML2 (didn’t find the scores to that-)and the GORT
• No…she could still have reading issues due to the fact that she has been exposed to 2 different languages. Also this examiner did not test her in her native language either…
English is the native language, Arabic is the second. :D
Lastly she scored dismally on the reading and yet still within average for comprehension— her rate, accuracy and passage (grade. equivelant.) were 3;.7, 2.0, and 2.4 respectivly, while her comprehension was 4.0
Is the comprehension on the passages that she was reading so poorly? It seems that they are.
she could still be confusing arabic and english
Even so she has been exposed to two languages since birth…and this could be another piece of the puzzle which complicates things when it comes to reading and writing and figuring out the orthographic codes for each langauge.
But it really sounds like you are dealing with executive functioning issues…the trail making test requires a lot of planning. I have seens kids like this they literally give up…become apathetic, passively resistant to remediation therapy. They can do well one on one with someone they like…but when asked to do things that are over ability level that was when youwill see the avoidance behaviors. With my DD She started to fight my working with her…and I had to step back and be a mom and let someone else work with her.
On the comprehension your DD is able to put things together inspite of her weak reading skills…that is a STRENGTH…she can take context clues in sentences surrounding the words she can’t decode using the words she can read to figure out the gestalt or meaning.
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I think it’s highly likely the scores are depressed by the assorted language and emotional factors.
Lots of the NLD stuff online is sort of misleading, because it’s still a relatively new idea, and frankly because a lot of the information about it is posted by people with NLD who are really good with words but can miss an accurate “big picture” of what NLD can mean to other folks. Any LD that isn’t verbal is NLD - so it covers a *lot* of possible ground, from mostly coordination kinds of things (difficulty managing space) that can have interesting affects on organization and math skills, to social comprehension to literal/concrete thinking.
One excellent resource is Mel Levine’s “Educational Care” book, which focuses on the practical problems in thinking & living, and things to do about it. It’s tuned into figuring out how the brain is processing information but skips over a lot of labeling. (It’s an expensive little tome, so you might want to scope it out at the library - hopefully since he’s been on Oprah they’ll be carrying more of his books, or perhaps a college/University library would have it.)
Just a note about that “understanding nonverbal communication.” People who have *no* natural intuition for social messages can learn them… you see a frown and you translate it into words. “SHe’s frowning, so this isn’t good.” It’s a real strength to be able to do this… but it can really help to recognize that you may need to make those little explanations. SOme people need to be told that if they’re doing all the talking (especially if “I” and “me” are the subjects of most of the conversation), that even if the other person is nodding and saying “yes,” they may actually be boring them to tears and are not ‘making friends.’ INstruction can *really* help here. (Of course I have no idea whether that has anything to do with your situation :))
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that’s interesting the definition of NLD, in that case I guessit would fit because her verbal skills are strong in comparison to the other areas, but she already does well reading body language.
In the time since she was diagnosed I have read: Non Verbal learning Verbal Learning Disbilaties at Home, The Out Of Sync Child, and partially read several other books on NLD and generalized LD books, I am currently reading It’s so Hard to Be Your Friend (Richard Lavoie), and he is talking about training LD children in social graces similar to what you mentioned, oh, but applying it with my own child is so much work, it’s sad I was reading about modeling listening and I do all the ‘wrong way responses’ :cry:
I will look for Mel Levine’s Book (I like to own books so I can refer to them when needed), I read his book, A MInd at a Time and found it very imformative and helpful.
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With my DD She started to fight my working with her…and I had to step back and be a mom and let someone else work with her.
I’d like to do that as well but I don’t want to send her to the public schools, and all the schools in this area specify that they take children with average to above average IQ, and she specified that my daughter was law average, “NLD in the context of low avrage intelligence”. I am hiring a tutor that specializes in LD students but I don’t think I can afford her enough to cover math and she needs language and math remediation. Our Muslim schools are out because they just are not at all equipped to accomadate her, that is part of why we are where we are at now.
Did you send your dd to PS, have her tutored, or what?
Ok, tomorrow i wll get on the other computer so i can transfer my original post to word and rewrite it as suggested.
this is what I did
I found a small non public agency that had one lab class for kids with Learning Differences. I worked there with other kids without pay for a reduction in tuition. I also paid about $500.00 a month for her to go to the class. We did this for about 18 months, from the middle of fifth grade to the beginning of 7th grade. Then I put her back in public school, wiht RSP support and speech services. The public school in your area would have to take her regardless of her IQ level.
It sounds like you are starting to sort things out. You could do the basic math concepts yourself with On cloud Nine Math by Lindamood-Bell. It is pretty straightforward and user friendly.
Did you get the response to your message that I sent?
Re: this is what I did
Patti: yes, I got the message and I emailed you, did you get the email?
I am getting more and more anxious and trying to make decisions here. If my dd’s problems are not audial related does an intensive at LMB make sense? I have made an appointment to have her tested with them on Mon., and am considering putting her in their 3 month (minimal requirement) ‘school program’. She also needs math remediation (I guess I will find out if thy will address that when I meet with them.
My other option is still getting the tutor from the Bell school. I will be able to contact them as of Monday, (they were on vacation the past few weeks so I hadn’t been able to follow up with them). I haven’t really had much luck with finding tutors that I trust from other sources. I like that these institutions have such solid reputations. Her being almost 11, I don’t have time to waste on ineffective tutors.
I am so desperate right now I feel like my decision making skills are somewhat impaired, so I really need some advice.[quote:db1e24615c=”pattim”]I found a small non public agency that had one lab class for kids with Learning Differences. I worked there with other kids without pay for a reduction in tuition. I also paid about $500.00 a month for her to go to the class. We did this for about 18 months, from the middle of fifth grade to the beginning of 7th grade. Then I put her back in public school, wiht RSP support and speech services. The public school in your area would have to take her regardless of her IQ level.
It sounds like you are starting to sort things out. You could do the basic math concepts yourself with On cloud Nine Math by Lindamood-Bell. It is pretty straightforward and user friendly.
Did you get the response to your message that I sent?[/quote]
no I did not get the e-mail
Hi,
A LMB intensive would be good for her, it would take some of the burden off of you and lessen your anxiety level considerably. LMB has done a lot of research into therapy that is working for kids within the spectrum, autism, NLD, hyperlexia, dyslexia, reading, math, exectuvie functioning and other language learning disabilities. You can also take the training so you can be more effective to her at home. Knowledge and therapy techniques will help empower you because it sounds like you feel like this is out of your control.
Hang in there and try e-mailing me again.
Bin,
Kids with ADHD will usually score lower in working memory…that seems to be a strength for your daughter. Hallmark for kids with ADHD is during testing they will either be really inconsistent and you get lots of false positives….or you will get apathy and they give up right away…it doesn’t sound like this assessor was looking for optimum performance. The psyche at my school will cajole the kids to get them to warm up to her…and she is good at it…to get optimum performance….Another thing I have seen with ADHD kids is sometimes during testing they love the challenge and you will see an optimum performance during testing because they are engaged in the task and want to do well.
I have cut and pasted part of your post to answer your questions…next time try to bullet the questions…it is hard to search through your verbiage to find your questions.. :-D
Now, there was significant discrepancies between her verbal and nonverbal scores, but can’t that have something to do with the fact that she can’t read beyond a 2.5 grade level?
Yes…that can have something to do with it…Did she give the TONI to test her non-verbal intelligence?
And how much effect will a lack of ability to focus have?
If a child isn’t engaged during an examination you will get depressed scores.
Does the fact that her scores were so variable, the high scores being in VCI and WMI and low being PRI and PSI, rule out dyslexia?
No…she could still have reading issues due to the fact that she has been exposed to 2 different languages. Also this examiner did not test her in her native language either…
In other words her reading issues could be due to the confusion between the phonetic code of her native language and english..
Hope that helps…hang in there…