ADHD

Sorry, things are a bit crazy here right now. I am not ignoring you nor am i afraid of the questions or challenge you are posing. But the thing is, i am a bit busy right now and i don’t keep a file on this and i probably should. But i don’t. Soooo it means i have to go back and dig through pretty much everything again. And, if you don’t mind i will get back to you when i gather it all up but for the moment i am just rather busy.

As for it takes being a parent to know anything about parenting. You are right. I have a babysister that calls me mommy for a reason. Because i raised her. pretty much all our lives. She was my baby from the day she was born when i was still just a little girl myself. made some huge mistakes. I was hardly perfect getting my parenting start at age 6. But, i learned and got better over time. no parent is perfect though all they can do is try.

I have cited many sources here in the past. That you choose to not look up far older posts is really not my problem, still as soon as i can make the time to get the sources for you i will.

Sorry this has taken some time… But here is some initial information for you related to what you asked for. It’s just alot going on at the moment….

www.adhdfraud.com

http://www.adhd-report.com.

www.wildestcolts.com

just to get you started.

You are also not lieing when you say use of stimulants even for children began earlier than most think. However ADHD was not invented until 1980 which is when by a show of hands in some big meeting room its loosely places symptoms were voted into existance along with the disorder.

It is listed in the DSM which i suggest you look it up as a disorder NOT as a disease. The reason for this is because no irrefutable organic component for this disorder has yet been presented to the satisfaction of the scientific community or anyone else. Infact, i am sitting here with a PHD in in the science though not in psychiatry which really isn’t a science in any legitimate way who will state for the record that the methodology used in the usa for ascertaining if someone has ADHD is NOT scientifically sound nor is it meeting the criteria of a scientific evaluation. He is not able to judge however weather or not the actual disorder exists but the methodology he has declared flawed as a scientist he would know as science is based on the collection of evidence. He finds the methodology and the subjectivity of so called ADHD evidence to be insufficient to qualify our current method of evaluation as a scientific process. Based upon the findings of such unscientific processes children are fed pills with very real side effects. Weather you believe they are necesary or not. They DO have side effects. So based on that is it really then ok to medicate a child with a disorder?

You compare ADHD to AIDs, which, is totally wrong to do for two reasons.

1. AIDs is a disease. There are scientific organic tests that can be run to find it and then you can treat it. Because there is something scientifically tangible there to be tested. In the case of ADHD there is not. It is solely based on a subject measuring system and solely based on a subjective opinion of a person who may not even have children of their own. Who knows? But i wouldn’t want my kid taking a class 2 drug that ups the risk of heart failure based on a test that lacks all scientific credibility as it’s base is not organic in nature.

2. Aids, kills people horribly. It causes pain and suffering and agony. It is a horrible organic disease. ADHD is a disorder that does not cause pain that does not cause much suffering. Usually it is the lable that causes more suffering to many people than the so called loosely stated so called symptoms do.

Oh and,

““F. Xavier Castellanos (National Institute of Mental Health) wrote, “I agree that we have not yet met the burden of demonstrating the specific pathophysiology that we believe underlies this condition.””

“William B. Carey, MD, of the University of Pennsylvania, responded, “There are no such articles constituting proof that A.D.H.D. is a disease or syndrome.””

“A study by F. Xavier Castellanos (NIMH) that supported such an idea [that those with ADHD had a smaller brain size] concluded in its comments the following: “Because almost all (93%) subjects with ADHD had been exposed to stimulants, we cannot be certain that our results are not drug related.” Paul Leber, of the Food and Drug Administration has stated, “… as yet, no distinctive pathophysiology for [A.D.H.D.] as a disorder has been delineated.””

“Gene R. Haislip of the Drug Enforcement Administration has stated, “We are also unaware that A.D.H.D. has been validated as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease.””

No you are so right every doctor on the pay roll of big pharma that ssigned a statement to testify to the existence of this afliction or DISORDER has only billions of dallars in reasons to sign such a statement and a total lack of substantiated evidence to prove their statement true. I can state for the record i have a dog that wears yellow pajamas. But until we have a photo of my dog in yellow pajamas why should anyone believe it? If i say if you don’t believe it and medicate youc ould lose your child, your child will be stupid their whole lives and have a terrible life. Now… there we have what ammounts to terrorism. This even lives in your genes… though we have no evidence of it… This is all your fault parents you passed on the gene that we have never even located the region of the genome for. Come on. Get real. Require a non subjective standard of proof or as we do have proof of side effects DON’T medicate your children!

And for the record and DRHD from this board will back me u[p on this statement no organic difference has been detected in the brains of those with ADHD and those without it. What is more and he will back me up on this statement too, The medication for ADHD has the SAME effect on those without ADHD as it does on those with ADHD.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2009/02/05/45622.aspx

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/adhd.html

http://www.amphetamines.com/adhd/drugsbrain.html

http://adhdwise.blogspot.com/2008/03/ritalin-cocaine-for-kids-risks-benefits.html

Shall i continue?

http://newideas.net/adhd/methlyphenidate-ritalin-brain-memory

http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues148a.shtml

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-klein20aug20,0,7161010.story

Even the UN has issued statements against the USAs use of drugs on children. We use over 90% of the world’s supply of ritalin every year and the number of children medicated each year is climbing!

So either ADHD doesn’t effect children in other countries (which it practically doesn’t) Or, we are seeing something where there is perhaps nothing.

I expect you just wanted to rant and to promoite drugs and drugging children. You are prolly not gonna even read any of this that i spent time collecting once again just for you. Hopefully though other parents will read it and make wiser decisions perhaps than you have if you are medicating your child for something science can not even verify exists.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-klein20aug20,0,7161010.story

“Children in the U.S. are 10 times more likely to take a stimulant medication for ADHD than are kids in Europe. In fairness, children in Europe are also somewhat less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD because of a stricter set of criteria. But that doesn’t nearly account for the difference in prescription rates. The U.S., the only nation to violate the U.N. treaty, consumes about 85% of the stimulants manufactured for ADHD.”

I have lived in both the USA and in europe. At the moment i live in europe. And that statement, is being generous. It is closer to 20 or 30 times more likely for a child to be medicated in the usa and likely still higher than that.

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=Doctor+who+named+ADHD+says+it+is+over+diagnosed&page=2&qsrc=2417&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zhealthinfo.com%2Fadd-adhd.htm

For a history. It was first introduced to the DSM in 1980. It wasn’t really super recognized or whatever till like 1987. Before that it remained a very controversial diagnosis.

http://www.feingold.org/adhd-history.html

In 1998, another Consensus Development Conference on stimulant drug and other treatments for ADHD was held by the NIH. They failed to reach a consensus on how to define ADHD, although calling it the “most commonly diagnosed behavioral disorder of childhood.” It was reported that the disorder is more prevalent in the United States than elsewhere.

Which actually makes exactly 0 sense when the vast majority of americans immigrated to the usa within the last 6 or so generations from other places. Which means if it truly was genetic as they claim you would see a MUCH higher rate of it in other countries around the world. But we don’t see it. Which leads me to believe there are some drug companies and doctors making a fortune while children suffer as a result and duped parents just want to help are making things worse for their kids.

Anyway, this is all the time i have at this moment to put towards this post. i will likely add more later.

And next time you want to show support for feeding children a medication that effects the brain the same way as cocaine does, i suggest you use a different doctor as a support to your claim.

http://www.cchr.org.au/pdf/New-Federal-ADHD-Guidelines-Could-Cause-Public-Health-Crisis.pdf

“
Russell Barkley, Ph.D., a renowned proponent of “ADHD” and stimulant treatment, has some
37 studies referenced. In 2007, almost a quarter (24%) of his income was from drug
companies.24 He is a key advisor to the U.S. Children and Adults with Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD) that U.S. media in 2006 exposed for its conflicts of interest with
the pharmaceutical industry and the fact that it does not publish critical information about ADHD
drugs, including an FDA warning in 2005 that the ADHD drug, Strattera, caused suicide. Eli Lilly,
the maker of Strattera is one of CHADD’s biggest donors.”

Oooh the tangled web we weave.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AKXhThWgvyYC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=Russell+Barkley+financial+ties+to+pharmaceutical+companies&source=bl&ots=X-Wtvc8JuA&sig=zIgoDxOuVKVV3t3jrPSs42yFkbw&hl=en&ei=hYemSpv1OYuFsAal3riaBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=Russell%20Barkley%20financial%20ties%20to%20pharmaceutical%20companies&f=false

And for the record, i don’t know jack about scientology. I am not a scientologist. I am an archaeology student. Which means, between being a student of a humanity who has to rely on what science says about things to interpret those things and being married to a PHD in science though not psychiatry, i likely have a pretty good idea of what is what.

What is more, i have proven my case using the expert you yourself presented and relied on to make your case. You have not got a leg to stand on in this debate. And you are right there is no debate there is just alot of bought silence and payed for lies. Lets tell it like it is.

Oh and, some more interesting information for those actually going to read this.

Short term treatments give short term results

A small study conducted twenty-years earlier had already indicated that the initial improvement seen with medication in the MTA results would be short-lived. Charles and colleagues(1979) found that medication should be used only as a short-term treatment and was not effective for long term therapy.

According to a report from the NIMH, “About half the initial benefits of the intensive medication management and combination treatments dissipated by the first follow-up, which was two years after the trial began.”

In 2007, another MTA follow-up study found the early benefits of both medication alone and medication combined with behavior therapy did not last. This raised further questions about the need and value of drug therapy for long term treatment.

Read more: http://adhd-add-treatments.suite101.com/article.cfm/drugs_are_still_not_the_answer_for_adhd#ixzz0QXI3UBTM

The results of the MTA eight-year follow-up again finds drugs are not more effective than other treatments. Kids who were still taking drugs were doing no better than those who had stopped using them. None of the intensive treatments used initially was linked to a better outcome.

Read more: http://adhd-add-treatments.suite101.com/article.cfm/drugs_are_still_not_the_answer_for_adhd#ixzz0QXIM0TSA

Ahhh so even if drugs were the best method of treatment, they sure don’t hold too much effectiveness for too long. Wow they up the risk of heart failure cause the frontal lobe to atrophy by upto something like 5%. They stunt growth cause major weight loss can cause ins ome rare cases halucinations etc… they effect the brain like cocaine because in essence that is what medication for ADHD is. And to top it all off, scientific studies performed by a recuitable institution on this matter show these potentially lethal drugs that were not even originally designed for use in children ARE ONLY EFFECTIVE FOR UPTO 3 YEARS!!!Short fix, long term damage to your child’s brain. Did your doctors tell you about this? Probably not. Maybe they should before they go running around promoting these drugs that do only short term good and long term damage.

Oh and i just found out what scientologists believe kind of… What freaks. Seriously…. They are as insane as the defectives who believe creationism over the scientific theory of evolution. But they are still right in *this* particular case of ADHD. I will not issue an opinion on their rightness related to medication in general. They seem to forget there is a time and a place for everything. Including medication, however a child is not the place and childhood is not the time and ADHD lacks all scientific evidence. And then i have discredited the doctors on the pay roll of big pharma. They are looking for a pay day they don’t care about helping anyone except themselves. Lets be real. Humans are greedy we look for ways for our own best interests to be served. I happen to feel that abusing children with cocaine is going too far. I have no objection to medicating children who have proven to be a threat to themselves or to others. i have no objection to adults who’s brains are fully developed making a conscious choice to pop medication for ADHD, that is a personal choice, but the long term effects of these drugs and the short term benefits plus the long lasting brain damage that can result when these drugs are given to a developing brain clearly indicate to me anyway that one might not want to give such chemicals to a child. I am not at all anti medicine. I am pro logic and science. Medicating children for ADHD is not the best method of treatment. Nor is it fair to them as it destroys their brain in the process. The destruction of one’s brain should be a personal choice not the choice of one’s parents looking for better grades in math or reading. We are literally medicating our children to death in the USA. There is a reasont he rest of the world doesn’t do this to their kids feed them these chemicals, they recognize it as the abuse it is.

And also

http://www.explosivechild.com/bio/bio.html

http://www.lostatschool.org/

Consider yourself served. Ball is now in your court. As i don’t have any more time to put into this thread at the moment.

Sorry, one last thing,

You compare ADHD and ADHD research to AIDs, and you accuse those of us who tell people medicine may niot be the best choice for children with ADHD fear mongers… I would just like to enquire how making such a comparison giving the detrimental affect of both ADHD and AIDs on people is so different to the degree of actual life and death difference, where do you get off calling those who support alternatives to medication fear mongers. Smells like hypocracy and fear mongering rolled into one to me. Too bad the Bush Administration has left office. You would have made a great addition to the cabinet.

I think LD Online provides this forum to help and assist parents in seeking to help and assit their children. I applaud that effort.
Argue or discuss with Mandi? No, thanks. Mandi, you have all the answers.

You issued a challenge. i believe i met it. Have a nice day.

Oh and i agree, this is a great forum for parents to seek help and advce, but for example when a parent comes here lookiing for the best methods to use n an IEP meeting with the school pushing hard core drugging at this mother who has mentioned he son is unmedicated, and clearly requests no advice on this matter to medicate, i think that isn’t useful assistance nor does t answer her questins or point her in the right direction.

At the end of the day t is always the parent’s choice. But parents should know just what they are giving their kids first and their doctors as a general rule do not tell them. Atleast not completely. They must also remember that someday, they will have to answer to their children who as adults may one day do the research and know. They may ask “why? or how could you, or how dare you?!” Parents must be prepared to explain themselves and to realize their children may not forgive them. They may forgive also.Every case is different and there most assuredly is a time and a place for everything. But pushing drugs at a mother on this board who for example asks about how to handle an IEP meeting by pushing her at medication when she has asked nothing about medication would be a great example of this board gone awry, in which case it is of 0 use or value to anyone. The best treatments over time have been shown to be something other than medicine. That is simply a scientific fact. If this mother had come in asking about medicine for example, i would have told her it’s a bad idea and i would likely have had little trouble with her hearing the alternative side of the argument when it is based in fact rather than fiction. And there is another side. Sometimes though VERY VERY VERY VERY rarely, a child is so messed up that they can’t even learn how to control themselves with practice and help and behavioral therapy. For a short term use in such a case i do not know that i would necesarily be against medication. However i am against it as a general rule for children.

I d believe i have met your challenge though and provided the statements that you requested.

And i hope this site continues to be here for all of us to discuss the issues and truths of this as well as how to best handle it.

But it is clear, in the long run medicine does alot more harm than good.

If ADHD is suspected, the diagnosis should be made by a professional with training in ADHD. This includes child psychiatrists, psychologists, developmental/behavioral pediatricians, behavioral neurologists, and clinical social workers. After ruling out other possible reasons for the child’s behavior, the specialist checks the child’s school and medical records and talks to teachers and parents who have filled out a behavior rating scale for the child.

Yes a behavioral analysis which amounts literally to a multiple choice questionare made up by people who are not the child who can merely observe the behaviors and who do not live inside the child’s mind with them therefore can not know if there is any rationality to what the child is doing in their mind.

Talking to teachers amounts to as a standard a single letter written by usuallya single though sometimes more than 1 complaining teacher who stands as witness that the child is a behavior problem. Your child can go to school and only in the last semester have a teacher in a subject they have never enjoyed much who is so terrible and dislikes your child so much that she writes the letter and speaks to the parent about getting the child tested. Lets be honest about this and get all the facts on the table.

And typically speaking one of those is involved in diagnosis not all of them. The USA has the most ambiguous system for ADHD diagnosis in the western world. That is a fact. In most countries it is not based ona single doctor’s diagnosis. Usually the child must be evaluated by a number of them and there are a great many additional criteria involved to receive such a diagnosis. The american system is broken and it at this point lacks all merit and to say otherwise is to support a lie. I do not deny ADHD may exist. I have no evidence to present that states for a scientific fact that it does not. What i do present is that there is an equal lack of scientifically quantifiable evidence for it’s existence. What is more i feel i have given some evidence on what is involved in all actuality in the diagnosis process and the methodologies and the ulterior motives of many doing these so called evaluations that are based on nothing but the opinion of some people who call themselves something long winded and have some piece of paper and only give parents half of the proper information they should on the drugs they are feeding their children.

Therefore, if we are going to assume ADHD exists, then i feel strongly that before people feed their children the equivalent of cocaine that they should be presented with more than a subjective opinion by a single doctor.

You can present a hundred letters from teachers that say you do NOT have it.I actually had a friend that passed around a petition to all his teachers since grade 1 that said that they all felt strongly he was NOT adhd. He had one math teacher that said that he was and wrote a letter. Well they asked his parent who had recently spoken alot to the math teacher and who were terrified. Between this doctor and the math teacher.And they ovver analysed every breath since the day he was born with the doctor and became more and more wound up about it. Then it came time to do the written evaluation questions and take a wild guess! The examiner refused to even look at the petition because it wasn’t standard procedure and only a single letter from a single teacher is necesary and the doctor was making money for each child he medicated.

Not only was my friend then forcibly medicated in the name of ADHD, but as a result he has life long turretts symptoms as a side effect of his medication.

There is nothing scientific about this process. And you can dress these people up in fancy names all you like. but if they were really worth their diplomas they would recognize these drugs none of them was invented for use in children and would refuse to use them in such a way as a general rule!

And i have seen the rating scale. Have you? I have never seen a more subjective opinion based document in all of my life.

And just to be completely clear, a questionare, does not organic evidence of ADHD make. Neither does ruling out everything else. Though i do agree that is a very good idea to do before going for an ADHD evaluation if you are a sick enough parent to actually do such a thing to your child.

Because there are over 400 hundred organicly testable and findable things that can go wrong with the body and brain that can be responsible for ADHD behaviors. If your child is exhibiting the symptoms take them to a doctor and have them medically checked as they could have a very real problem for which some sort of very legitimate treatment may be necesary. However, ADHD, can hardly be called a legitimate diagnosis given the lack of organicly relevant evidence to measure. Therefore medicating something that very well may not even exist for all science can tell while the brain is still in early phases of development seems like a really poor idea even if recommended by a doctor who receives a small sum of money from the corpporation that made the drug he is prescribing for every prescription that he writes. A rating scale lets see rater yourself

Skin legions Bad Severe super severe check one.

White blood cell count low high could be higher check one. These are legitimate medical proofs of an afliction but a subjective behavioral anaylis that loosely describes symptoms we all manifest to some varying degreesin varying situations seems as ridiculous as a basis to give children the equivalent of cocaine based on as the spectral evidence presented to hang the salem witches during the witch trials.

I would also like to point out, i am the only one that has posted here that has put up links to articles or presented any scientific data on this subject. I have also presented the quotes i was challenged to find and no one else has backed up a single statement with anything credible besides personal opinion and the name of a discredited doctor.

I have to back Mandi up on this one, Leo. There is ample research that questions both the construction of ADHD as a “disease” entity and the long-term effectivness of stimulants as treatment. You are correct in that stimulant treatment for ADHD is probably the most heavily researched area in psychiatry, with studies starting in the 1960s and continuing to this day. In all that time and with all that research, there is scant evidence that ANY long-term outcome is positively affected by long-term stimulant treatment. Barclay himself admitted in around 1978 that the long-term results were “disappiointing” with regard to academics. I’d look up the reference except that you’re clearly not interested in reading these studies. Let me know if you are, and I’ll provide what I have, though Mandi was more thorough than I could possibly be.

Another set of studies in the late 70s demonstrated that “ADHD” children who were put in an open classroom setting with work stations but no time limits or arbitrary changes in location were virtually indistinguishable from “normal” children. As a parent of two boys who would certainly have qualified for the “ADHD” label in their elementary years, I have found this observation to be quite accurate. We have homeschooled and used alternative schooling, and when our oldest returned to school in 6th grade, no one thought he had a problem. He worked hard and was motivated to achieve. Our youngest, now 13, is a star pupil at his child-centered charter school. He does advanced work in math and science and reads at a high school level, in addition to competing on high school sports teams. He has friends and gets along with his teachers and never gets in trouble, despite his age and “diagnosis.” His “ADHD” has essentially been cured by positive discipline and an appropriate educational environment, as well as time for him to develop emotionally and neurologically.

Stimulants help “ADHD” kids cope with dull and repetitive tasks, but don’t appear to have long-term benefits. That’s what the science tells us. I think people deserve to know this so they don’t give kids stimulants and think that everything will improve as a result.

There’s another study from the 1970s (which was clearly the seminal research period on ADHD) that showed teachers LESS likely to provide academic assistance to medicated vs. unmedicated children. Teachers apparently assume that medicated kids are now OK and don’t give the extra help they may need.

Another showed that a very low dose was necessary to improve attention, but a higher dose was needed to control behavior, and at this higher dose, attentional ability was actually DECREASED. Guess which dosage was considered optimal by the teachers?

There are a lot of very good, non-religious, scientifically-based reasons to question uniform, long-term stimulant use as a treatment for ADHD. Anyone who claims to be interested in research should read what Mandi has provided. I have to admit, even though I was a skeptic to begin with, I was initally shocked at the lack of research support for long-term benefits from stimulant use. I really did approach it with an open mind and came away feeling firmly convinced that there is no reason to use stimulants for more than several months in the most extreme cases, and that environmental changes and positive discipline were the ways to success. My two children have proven the case for me. Neither has had a milligram of stimulant medication and both have been successful academically, socially, and athletically. ADHD is not a life sentence. It’s a particular way of being that can have both benefits and costs. If we focus on supporting these kids in pursuing their strenths while teaching them self-control through positive discipline, there’s no reason they can’t turn out to have wonderful lives without any medication at all. I am not opposed at all to parents who choose to use medication as part of their approach, but they deserve to know that for long-term outcomes to change, medication will not be sufficient, and that medication or the absence thereof will have little effect on the things that most of us care about the most.

Thanks, Mandi, for your excellent elucidation of the current research. To sum it up, if you want to treat the “core symptoms” (hyperactivity, inattention, and impulsivity) in the short term, medication is the best option available. If you want to impact academic achievement, high school dropout rates, college attendance, criminal behavior, social skills, and self-esteem, other methods will serve you better. That’s what the science tells us. The fact that many or most doctors don’t know these facts don’t make them any less true.

Thank you Steve. I had a feeling you would agree with me on this subject.

Havng ADHD, i am so accustomed to just being dismissed as for whatever reason some insane crazy person, which i am not. That i back everything i say up. Very carefully. And even then everyone dismisses that because it was provided by a woman with a lable. Why would people want to do this to their children???

I apreciate too steve your recognition of my careful research and i wanted to add too for your own information though you may already know about it. Recently i believe it was a harvard study showed that the rate of ADHD diagnosis per class or whatever dropped by something like 30% or 40% with every half hour of outdoor recess time provided to students. Also the rate of ADHD dropped by some large amount in classes where children are free to walk around the room quietly without disturbing or interrupting the teacher or other students or to be able to even lay down while they listen or read so that they are physically comfortable. Alot of the so called ADHD fidgeting is just uncomfortable children being asked to sit still for too long in one seat and not move at all. It is ridiculous and cruel to do.

Just think, the average employee gets a 15 minute break every 4 hours by law. When i was in school i got a 10 minute lunch period once in a 6 hour school day. Kids studies have shown need alot more sleep than adults yet we call jobs 9 to 5 where as when i went to school i had to be at attention at my desk at 7:45 am every single morning without fail or i would get punished with 2 hours of detention. The way schools treat students in the usa borders on cruelty. There is no understanding or respect shown to american students and as a result they act out. They can’t help it. They can’t breathe without being called fidgety labled and drugged let alone get comfortable in their chairs infront of their desks.

But i was issued a challenge. And obviously as my challenger literally quotes me from other posts on this board clearly she did have a bone to pick with me. She provided the name of a discredited doctor i provided tons of evidence which she didn’t even look at. Because she already had all the answers not me. I am of the opinion no one has all the answers and that until we do, feeding children the equivalent of cocaine is a bad idea. I supported my claims. I have provided many articles. I have also provided the quotations specifically requested of me. I met the challenge and still solely because i am labled this woman is dissmissing me and all the labor and time i put into this research yet againa s i have no organizational skills to speak of and had to go back once again and do all the research over just to get all this information together for her. When i have posted it much of it in the past in other posts before which she was also too lazy and dismissive of me to go read. Why would any parent want to have your child labled like me so that no one will take them seriously or treat them like a rational human being again as long as they live. Why would you do that to someone you espouse to love. Because that, that isn’t love. And this thread, this proves every word that i have said.

So next time you want to not argue with me. Don’t issue me a direct challenge literally quoting me in your challenge. But it is aufully immature to be such a sore loser when you find that my claims are legitimate and i can back them up. Then turn around and treat me like some nut. Yeh i know it sux to lose. I was labled at age 4 and all that has happened to me since is loss after loss after loss. This diagnosis takes everything away from a child and into adulthood from their ability to find work to their ability to be taken seriously by their peers to everything else worth anything. But the one thing that no one can take away from me is the truth. Because, It doesn’t need me to stand for it. It just needs to be presented and then it stands on it’s own. Do not issue further challenges when you have no intention of producing more than the name of a discredited doctor and do not issue challenges then declare the opponent that you challenged to be some kind of nut because no matter what they offer you will not even view it. Aufully cruel don’t you think to issue such “challenges” and to then treat the opponent you challenged with such dismissal when they are learning disabled? I am labled with ADHD and dyslexia. So i am not even playing on a level playing field here. The least you can do is read what i work to present to you with an open mind when you issue me a challenge and treat me with the same common courtesy to not dismiss me as a nut that you would anyone you might consider rational. Or is this how you make yourself feel better? Do you really have such a low opinion of yourself that this is what you need to do to dismiss those society views as beneath you after challenging them without even looking at the information that they provide to you? I mean that is just cruel. But ofcourse cruelty in our society is all fine and good but god save you if you can’t organize your research into a folder and can’t stand to focus for 6 hours straight at age 4. The horror.

Please parents, don’t take the right to be viewed and treated as a human being from your children. I have not spoken to my father now in the last several years because, he had no good answers for me. I was one of the cases that didn’t display the symptoms of ADHD according to my evaluation i was a little day dreamy at 4 years old not the least bit of a behavior problem. But somehow the reesearchers concluded using a behavioral test, that even though according to them i didn’t display the symptoms at all that i still had it. What the does that mean? How can they say ina behavioral analysis “X doesn’t exhibite the symptoms of ADHD really at all aside from perhaps a little more day dreaming than is perhaps normal ina child of her age. Still based on this analysis of her behavior we are diagnosing X with ADHD.” Since then i have seen many doctors. And i have some that come back and tell me i am ADHD and i have others who come back and tell me i am normal. No one can even decide if i have it. There is no tie breaker available on the issue just the condemnation of society that goes along with being labled and all the abuse from others like that of the original poster. The thing is, i grew up. And now when someone challenges, i am fully prepared and as able as anyone else to respond and to give as good as i get. Still it is pathetic for someone to issue a challenge intended to cruelly victimize a learning disabled woman like me. It shows a clear lack of compassion.

Seriously, thank you steve. You just brught tears tto my eyes it is so very rare that i am treated in a dignified manner or even as a sane and rational human being even though i am highly educated i will never be able to tell you how much it means to have someone not judge me based on my lable but for the content and rational scientific research i provide to back myself up. Thank you.

http://www.adhdhelp.org/stimulants.htm

http://www.adhdhelp.org/DrugResearchBias.htm

http://www.adhdinsight.com/

http://www.adhdinsight.com/ADHDHeredity.htm

http://www.adhdhelp.org/behavior-modification.htm

http://www.adhdhelp.org/ADHD-Testing.htm

http://www.adhdhelp.org/DoctorsDilemma.htm

http://www.adhdfraud.org/history_of_the_fraud_of_biological_psychiatry.htm
This is an important article to read.

” Swanson (from the tape recording of the session):

“I would like to have an objective diagnosis for the disorder (ADHD). Right now psychiatric diagnosis is completely subjective…We would like to have biological tests—a dream of psychiatry for many years… I think we will validate it. I do not think these drugs are dangerous or addictive when used this way.”

How is that for a quote?

This in essence means they hope to and think they will find some organic root for ADHD, however at this moment while they have so many children on drugs designed for adult use that effect their brains just like cocaine and have vast side effects, they have no evidence of an organic nature of any kind. Which is precisely what i have said.

I have no evidence disproving ADHD. It could be real. Perhaps someday they will prove it, but until that time, how can they call it “informed consent” when event he experts don’t actually study jack since they can’t find jack to study on an organic levle.

What is more this quote clearly and sufficiently states what i have said all along about the system of diagnosis.

On May 13, 1998, F. Xavier Castellanos (NIMH) wrote to me: “…I have noted your critiques of the diagnostic validity of ADHD. I agree that we have not yet met the burden of demonstrating the specific pathophysiology that we believe underlies this condition. However, my colleagues and I are certainly motivated by the belief that it will be possible in the near future to do so. ”

“There are no such articles (constituting proof that ADHD is a disease). There are many articles raising doubts but none that establish the proof you or I seek.”. Barkley (1998) implies that brain atrophy characterizes ADHD. He cites MRI studies by Castellanos, the first of which showed that: “Subjects with ADHD had a 4.7% smaller total cerebral volume”; while the second showed: “Vermal (cerebellar) volume was significantly less…with ADHD.” Not mentioned was the fact, acknowledged in the original report (Castellanos, 1996) that 93% of ADHD subjects had been on chronic stimulant therapy, and that the same treated cohort was used in the second study. No stimulant-naïve group has been shown to have brain atrophy. The brain atrophy is a function of their chronic stimulant therapy—the only physical variable.

Steve, I have been looking for your quote about Barclay’s disapointment of the long term effects of stimulants. I am sure it exists because you would not be so sure of it if it didn’t. Plus youa re very well informed but i can not find it. Can you see if you can find it. I would really apreciate it. Thank you!

Mandi, actually, I took the time to follow all your links. Interesting.
Reading all you you have written, I feel a respect for you and all that you have gone through in living with this label and all the difficult things you have mentioned. Not too many people have are willing to disclose so much about themselves. I hope that you have a great career in anthropology.
And now I have got to stop. This is too addicting. I have to get back to work.
But, I have not one iota of personal animosity. And my request for citing sources was not a personal attack, just information seeking.

I am a student of archaeology. I am supported by my husband and family while i study. I have no ties, nor do i receive a penny from any group that is anti medicine. I also receive no 1 penny from the pharma industy. And if i ever did, i would overdose on some medication because i don’t think i would be able to live with myself.

I am a woman who has nothing left. Nothing. This industry which many forget that it is is an industry. It exists to make a proffet like all industries. This industry is profiting off of robbing children of everything that makes them who they are as individuals. It is stealing their authority within society their right to make informed consent their right to think properly or naturally. It is taking their ability to be taken seriously by society while they are children and as adults. This industry is taking everything.

I have things that are important for me to be doing with my time. I don’t know how i am going to get this paper done on palaeolithic cave art at the moment. But i am not sorry. And i don’t feel i have wasted my time. Even though, this benefits me in no way what so ever.

I am not sorry, because i was a child a generation ago one of the early cases after the naming of ADHD. A child victimized again and again for 20 years by this industry. When i was 7, i asked the researcher as i had just undergone all the stinking barrage of tests from IQ to ADHD evaluation less than 6 months earlier, why i had to do this crap again as i really didn’t want to it was sooooo boring for me. She said to me, “You do it, so that we can understand kids like you better. So that in the future, no more children will have to go through all this yuchiness.” And i argued not one more time. And i gave them willingly all they asked me for. And did as they requested. For 20 years. Only to find that over 20 years, my sacrifice meant nothing because nothing new had been learned and they were not treating these children any better or even differently than they had treated me or had tested me.

I do this, for that victimized child. I do this because she isn’t the only one. There are so many more of us out there. And what is worse, they have started on a new generation. Stripping their humanity away and turning them into laboratory experiments. Taking… everything from them. No child needs to grow up to be the waste of a person that i am. I do this to protect your children from becoming me. I do this so that you will never have to face your child and explain to them how mommy could allow them to be so robbed and exploited frozen in fear to stop it from happening. I do this so that they won’t suffer from the long term effects of these drugs they pump through our child systems, leaving us washed up adults with various chemical imbalances and depression as a result of the medications.

I do this for the child i was. But that child is dead. This industry killed her… So many years ago. I can not sit back and watch allowing it to kill any other children in every way that matters for their proffit margins. I do this, to protect your child, because the one i was has been dead and burried for so long. So i do it so that no other child will have to die internally and burry themselves before they are ready for the sake of some corporation’s proffit margins. I am not here for me. I am not here for you Leo. I am here for those children, the ones who will be left to pick up the pieces of what broken little is left of themselves for themselves once this industry lets them go after choking all the life out of them. I am here to give information to parents so that they can protect their children from becoming me.

Hi, Leo,

I am glad you read some of the citations Mandi provided. I am glad that you found them “interesting”, but does this not necessarily modify your original accusations of “fear mongering?” I think the literature presented, not to mention Mandi’s moving personal story, amply demonstrate that questioning ADHD diagnosis and treatment is not a matter of fear mongering. Genuine and lasting harm can result from the careless and systematic use of stimulants, and in the long term, kids seem to get along just as well without it.

Further, if we are to accuse people of fear-mongering, what about the professionals who warn that “untreated ADHD sufferers have higher rates of school dropout, criminal behavior, etc, etc.” when the research shows that those outcomes are not positively affected by stimulant treatment? THAT is what I call fear mongering.

So how about it? You accused the “anti-stimulant advisors” of fear mongering without having data to back it up - don’t you think an apology or retraction might be in order?

Hi, Mandi!

Thought I’d already posted this, but it didn’t seem to have gone through.

I want you to know I’d be proud to have you as a daughter, mother, or friend. You are not a broken person, you are a person who was traumatized by the education system but has survived to become a passionate advocate so that others don’t endure similar suffering.

It’s easy to state an opinion - everyone has one! But you back yours up with direct observation and scientific research. That is something not too many people bother to do. If the doctors and educators did as much, we wouldn’t be having the kind of issues we are having.

Keep up the great work, Mandi! You are AWESOME!

Here is the citation:

Barkley, R. & Cunningham, C. (1978). Do stimulant drugs improve the academic performance of hyperkinetic children? A review of outcome research. Clinical Pediatrics, 17, 85-92.

Thank you steve. And no i am the furthest thing from broken. That is why i am here. So that no other unbroken person has to be treated like they are broken by society.

I was lucky, i had a child that needed me more than i needed myself. So i got through it. But most kids going through that don’t have someone so helpless and dependent upon them that they have to find that kind of strength. And they shouldn’t have to. But that is what got me through it. My little girl. The one my mother birthed and that i raised from age 6 until she went away to college.

I guess i am here because after everything i have been put through, I am still standing and i will not stop standing. Because someone has to when those that should do not. So, i guess it really boils down to something said by a very famous singer Jewel. I think you will understand what i am getting at in posting these lyrics.

“If I could tell the world just one thing
It would be that we’re all OK
And not to worry ‘cause worry is wasteful
And useless in times like these
I won’t be made useless
I won’t be idle with despair
I will gather myself around my faith
For light does the darkness most fear
My hands are small, I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken
Poverty stole your golden shoes
It didn’t steal your laughter
And heartache came to visit me
But I knew it wasn’t ever after
We’ll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what’s right
‘Cause where there’s a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
I am never broken
In the end only kindness matters
In the end only kindness matters
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken”

What great lyrics! I have never listened to anything from Jewel but I will have to give this one a listen.

You have to be pretty tough to pull yourself through such ordeals. I can read between the lines and get the picture that you had to take care of yourself as well as your sister. Well done for taking what was a bad scene and turning it into something positive for yourself and others!

What i went through Steve, it’s over. It can’t hurt me or anyone else again atleast as iit relates to me. But the nightmare for so many children is only just beginning. And where there is a child who has no voice there mine shall go singing. Because this, doesn’t happen again to anybody.

The power belongs to us as parents and as a society and as educators and intelligent people to look at the evidence and to look at the truth and to wake up and see it for what it is. And that awakening, is such a compassionate act. Unfortunately, it seems to wake people up they have to experience something shocking and even horrifying. So, i offer what happened to me. Because if i can wake even 1 person up because of it and as a result a child gets the actual help they need rather than a quick simple dose of harmful medication, then… It was not all in vain.

My hands are small, my reach is short. I can’t buy people off the way the drug companies can. Nor would i want to. I also can’t buy the truth from them i don’t have that kind of power. But i will use my own two hands metaphorically speaking, to do all i can to make other people realize they have hands of their own that are perfectly usable as opposed to looking to others to tell them how to use them. Especially where their kids are concerned and medications. So my hands are small… But they don’t belong to anyone anymore except for me. And now, i have the vote.

A very wise native american chief once said somethiing about how we borrow the earth from our children. And it is a true statement. That is exactly what we do. As children in our society, they have no voice. And no one really listens to them because they have not developed to adulthood with all that entails but god forbid they should not act exactly like miniature adults from the day they are born and forever after. God forbid they should maybe even need parents a bit more than is entirely typical. Oh the horror! Pull out the pills! They can’t after all vote politicians into office to tell you that you can’t legally do that. They can’t hire attorneys and prosecute for forced medicating and assault, they are just children after all. But those of us who have been through this… No one knows who we are. You can’t tell us from the next person on the street. Truly you can’t and if we were really that messed up you would be able to. It would be obvious to anyone. If it is not, then how bad a problem can it truly be? And those of us who have suffered this industry who are indistinguishable from anyone else on the street, are now all grown up. We get to vote in elections. We get to vote on laws being passed etc… We get to stand up where there was no one to stand up for us back before anyone knew any better, to change this terrible industry with it’s cruelty and over medicating of chldren. And i personally consider it a responsibility to humanity to do so.

I would love to start a lobby group for the minority group of people labled with ADHD. Just imagine, in the usa over 20% of the population has ADHD. That is a larger minority than the black and asian minorities of the usa combined. And just look what they have acomplished in the last 50 years. They still have a long way to go. But those with ADHD are in no different positions than those minorities who all have such lobby groups. We should have one too. To create a political balance to the one that the pharmaceutical industry has, getting laws like The Mother’s act even onto the agenda…. Sooo perhaps someday i will find a way to organize something like that so that those with ADHD can not be victimized based on lack of evidence of anything being actually wrong with them on an organic level.

Forgive me Mandi and Steve if you covered this but here is another link to an article about stimulants only be effective in the short term:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032604018.html or

http://tinyurl.com/dyb777

Interesting that the psychiatrists quoted in the article try to defend the use of stimulants long term.

Leo, what was your purpose for posting what you wrote? You seem to have this image of people who post legitimate citations against the use of psych meds as crazy wacko scientologists. Frankly, I am not one as I don’t even understand the movement.

Anyway, I would appreciate if you and people who have similar views would stop tarring people who have concerns about psych meds as scientologists. This needs to stop as we don’t call folks who espouse psych meds drug whores.

You seem to place a great deal of faith in doctors and their studies. Are you aware that many of them (not all) who post these studies are connected to drug companies?

For example, the person who espoused the benefits of everyone getting prophylactic AD treatment for strokes has a financial connection to the company that makes either Lexapro or Celexa.

Anyway, just so you know, as a person with LD, I feel these meds greatly worsened my LD issues and yes, that includes a stimulant. My already bad memory is now horrific. I wish to god I hadn’t taken one crumb of a psych med as these meds have brought me nothing but heartache.

Of course, one experience does not make for a study but before you put your child on meds, you had better read about all the side effects, including the cognitive issues. Oh yeah, they say the side effects are rare but that is based on about 8 to 12 weeks of studies.

Also, keep in mind that 2 to 10% of all adverse effects are ever reported to the FDA.

Finally, Steve it is great to see you posting again.

No forgiveness needed! Welcome to the party PT1! Another rational voice on the subject toting the science rather than the Zenou or whatever it is from Scientology, is always more than welcome. Thanx for sharing another article!

As for scientology…. Yeh, i don’t get it either. I tend to be a firm believer in what science tells me. Religion, though i do enjoy studying it as it pertains to ancient societies, i have little interest in it as it is in the modern world. Except creationists. I hate those freaks. I like to put them in their place fairly regularly. But beyond that i have no use for it.

And your position on pharmaceutical companies etc and the industry is quite right. And very well said. I think often i don’t put things particularly well… But i do recall holding up Barclay the original poster’s Dr. and pointing out that a 4th of his income comnes from the ritalin company. The industry is corrupt. And children are suffering as a result. Anyone who denies that fact in the face of all the truly unbiast science, is just… A fool.

I have little problem with grown ups choosing to read the science hear out their doctors and decide to try the drug. That i am fine with. But when this crap is forced on both parents and children like it is the holy grail of salvation when it is the furthest thing from it. And little legitimate iinformation is actually provided about the stuff by the doctor… I object very strongly!

There is some truth in what Leo wrote. I have been reading a bit about scientology. The followers are obviously pretty much insane. But i happen to feel that way about every religious group. God speaks to them, hearing voices…. Anyone got a drug for that??? Oh right being schizo hearing the voice of Jesus is normal!In what universe…. A delusion is still a delusion. For more on that may i point you to Dawkin’s God Delusion. But no one treats them like they are crazy…. I offer support for this position and legitimate science and i get called a scientologist which i am not. Scientologists are as crazy as any other religious group. I mean jews some of them to this day keep kosure. I think that is nutz as well. Scientologists keep ‘anti medicine’ rather than kosure. In this day and age it amounts to the same thing. A pointless dogmatic bunch of crap. There is a time and a place for medicine. And that is a fact. AIDs for example, treatments for that. Heart conditions… etc legitimate things that can be found on an organic level must be treated on that level contrary to scientologist agenda. Otherwise people die painfully and needlessly. Pointless painful human death is something i am opposed to. But the fact is, you have a higher risk of death from heart failure resulting from ADHD medication than you do untreated for ADHD. What does thaqt clearly indicate to a rational person??? As for the example of kosure… I can see how in a different time and place it made alot of sense…. But seriously, by that rationality, why not all go back to living in caves and using stone tools instead of the handier silverware we have today. It is just as irrational therefore as the anti medicine position of scientologists.

But being opposed to medicating children for a behavior issue which no one can find any organic validation for in over 20 years of super hard core study while the rate of the diagnosed and medicated rises with all the side effects and deaths due to these drugs…. The science, says the drugs are at best a very short term fix. Common sense and the fact that the brain is in a state of slow development until we reach our early mid 20s indicates before that time these drugs can have huge impacts on the brain for the very long term. Many of those effects have been showing to not be possitive.

Anyone therefore promoting medication is obviously irrational. Maybe their frontal lobes are too small and they’r common sense is not functioning as a result. Perhaps we should do some studies on that see if we can find them a proper medication to help them with their apparent defect in the reason and rationality department.

Hi, PT1! I am pleased to know that you still remember me - it’s been a couple of years since I last posted.

Thanks for that link - I had read a small article in a journal about the new info on the MTA study, but I didn’t know it had reached the Washington Post. It is kind of amazing that professionals can say with a straight face that the fact medication effects clearly diminish over time to eventually nothing at all doesn’t mean long-term use is contraindicated in general. Why would we want to continue to subject millions of children to potential adverse effects when the vast majority will experience no benefits? It’s great that everyone seems to get better, but if the ones not taking medication improve just as much as those who do, clearly the scientifically preferred course would be to either medicate only short term or not to medicate at all, and put some energy into finding out what other things are being done that actually do have longer-term effects.

I have to say a word on the Scientologist issue. It is very unfortunate that the industry has chosen to use this method as a way of discrediting rational arguments against medication. I don’t believe we should join them in downgrading Scientology or Scientologists. I think we should call a spade a spade and respectfully confront anyone trying to trash a person’s religion as a means of deflecting attention from the real issue at hand. I have known any number of Scientologists as well as Christians of a wide variety of sects and Jews and Buddhists and a good handful of Muslims as well. There are irrational elements in any and all of the above religions, and there are also highly rational people engaged in all of the above religious practices. The fact that someone is or is not a Scientologist is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not they have a rational basis for their arguments.

Psychiatrists and others use the “Scientology defense” to put the critic on the defensive rather than really looking into the question at hand. This would be similar to saying that the fact that someone is a “Liberation Theologist” (a Catholic movement in South and Central America aimed at eliminating poverty and repression) has no standing to argue that a repressive government should stop arresting innocent people. “You know those people - they are always criticising our government. You can’t believe anything they say…” It’s a classic attack by someone who doesn’t really have the rational argument to back up their position.

So anytime a person brings Scientology into the argument, I’d respond, “What does religion have to do with the long-term effects of these drugs?” The answer: NOTHING!

The truth is the truth, no matter who speaks it, and I take great exception to discrediting anyone based on what group they may or may not belong to. I want to know what they have to say and what they have to back it up. I think Mandi has done an awesome job of backing up her statements with direct experience and research, and I don’t give a crap what religion she practices - her credibility would remain exactly the same. I hope we can all subscribe to that kind of thinking, because if we don’t, we simply add to the idea that Scientologists are de facto irrational, which plays into the hands of those who want to use that argument to discredit anyone who criticizes the psychiatric industry.

I think this thread is absolute proof that critics of psychiatry have a well-founded base of facts from which to make their arguments. I support anyone who is prepared to question the pseudo-scientific marketing line we’ve been fed and look at the actual science. As Mandi says, I am not against parents who choose this option. I’m against trying to deceive people through emotional arguments and professional sleight of hand.

I believe in informed consent, with a full and honest disclosure of all relevant information, including viable alternative treatment strategies and the real risk/benefit analysis for the treatment being proposed. I think every person in making their informed decision needs to appreciate that taking the medication is not a long-term fix. What they choose to do with that information is up to their own values and beliefs, but we shouldn’t lie to people in order to increase pharmaceutical sales. I have a feeling most people of any religion would agree with me.

Ahh Bingo Steve! You have hit the nail on the head.

I agree, there are elements of all religion that are a bit crackers. And there are very sensible people who believe in them. It isn’t for them typically so much about the letter and verse and exact words but more the general spirit of the matter and the kind of interaction it inspires them to have with the rest of the world.

I am a druid. And i also borrow alot from the philosophy in which i was raised. That would be Buddhism. Both my parents are hard core Buddhists. i was born and raised inside a buddhist sangha quite literally. On the second floor. Not even in a hospital, by midwife. I don’t think i was even fully immunized until probably my teens…. My mother didn’t think it was healthy to introduce all that int my system on the same day as i was born. i think if i had children, i would want them fully immunized when they start kindergarten or first grade. I also think personally i would also space out the shots and immunizations a bit because there s something to that idea that introducing too much too suddenly to the system can cause damage. Just give an idea of my background.

I was not trying to trash any single relgion. I was trying to make the point that you did.Only i thought perhaps citing a few examples of strange religious behaviors that i don’t understand anyway would help meto explain myself better. But you did just fine without doing so.

I agree. Pointing and screaming scientologist turns this into a witch hunt rather than a rational conversatiion. Until ifinally looked up scientology because of the original poster, i actually didn’t know what it was at all. Everyone has every right to believe whatever they like. No matter how irrational it is. So long as it is not harming others. Unfortunately, these drugs are harming others so believing in them and those who are robbing so many of educated and informed consent…. Seems to me like harm to others. And there are people courtesy of this harm raking it in hand over fist. I find that morally and ethically repugnant. No one should proffit off of causing other humanbeings to suffer. These drugs offer long termsuffering and sideeffects. They offer short term benefits. Legally, doctors should be obligated to disclose exactly what you are saying a risk benefits analysis in writing to patients and patient’s families. As well as all the info on the side effects and ofcourse some studies done that show all sides of this issue then based on all that information allow a parent or person to make the choice with full disclosure.

As an adult i have taken drugs. Usually when i have to study. When i have little to do and less to manage knowing exactly what i am putting into my system and everything we can know about it’s effect on my brain that is a personal choice i make. If i amgoing to bum around the mall or do something that i don’t require a raised ability to concentrate for, i take nothing. Here in europe, i take nothing because what i take in the usa is such a scary (and standard substance) it falls in the darker grey area of legal. Sooo I am medicine free now for many months. But if i had the opportunity as an adult with a fully developed brain and if i really needed for the activities of the day to be that focused and able to concentrate i would take a pill again happily.

I am not totally pro choice with full disclosure either. I feel based on what i know about the brain as an archaeology student one of my main focuses is on evolution. Which means alot of it is related to the brain. So, i know the differences between the developing brain andthe fully developed brain as far as we can presently determine by science fairly well. I do oppose parents medicating children who are not a harm to themselves or others with psych meds for mental defects for which no organic basis has been presented. I oppose that very strongly. But i do stand by the right to choose for adults who have full disclosure and informed consent. The difference in the brain is fairly drastic… It is quite literally apples and oranges when considering medicating a child for a non organic based psych issue verses an adult. And by adult i don’t mean person 18 years old. I don’t even mean person 20 years old. I mean person age 25 and above due to the brain’s development.

I oppose the marketing strategies used and i oppose the ghost written articles in journals and all the rest of it.

People have a right to know the science behind what they are putting into their own bodies. A full accounting of it. And parents, have no right to that. They have an obligation. Because they are merely the stewards of their children, not the owners. Owning people is a crime inalmost every country around the world. Children are not property of parents. Parents are the stewards of the next generatioon. The sooner parents especially in the usa realize that the healthier our country is going to get.

If you don’t want to parent your children don’t have any. Parenting is hard and long and if you think it is over in 18 years, think again. It gets in the way it is supposed to. You are supposed to have to teach your chuildren and to work with them and to bond with them and to forfeit everything for their health and well being and education. American parents are in general the most selfish in the world. And i have watched parents parenting quite literally all over the world.

In the usa, the belief tends to be, if it is working for me then it is good for my child. But the reality is, that is not always true. Often more true is, nothing can work for me till after it is working for my child. That is how it is done in asia and in europe. I know, because i have been there i have watched parents parenting. And i gotta tell ya, their kids are turning out more balanced and sane and not only that far better educated than ours in the usa.

There are alternatives to medicating for ADHD. There is herbalism for example. I am not opposed to that. Homeopathy… If you really want to put somethng into your child’s body. More importantly there is communication with your child activities with your child time spent with your child behavioral therapy and countless other treatments that have been shown to have a far better long term effect. But parents don’t care about long term. They tend to be too selfish especially in the usa these days. They want the quick fix because that makes it easier for them. Then they pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves on their proper parenting getting their disease ridden less than normal child treated. All because they don’t want to do the unselfish thing. The doctors often don’t even have to do much t0o convince them. Because they just don’t want to feel like bad parents you see feeding a kid a pill is doing something for them right??? Well errr… No… Actually in this case it isn’t. If your child has a fever and you are giving them tylenol then absolutely.

Parents are really the heart of the problem having their kids viewed as abnormal so they don’t have to feel like bad parents. Just giving in that far is an indication that they are simply seeking an excuse and some sort of societal permission to be as selfish as they want as parents. As you see, then you have a kid that isn’t normal so you can’t help them. You are doing good though you got an expert to deal with it. Don’t have children if you don’t want to parent!!! Parenting is tough tough tough work. It never gets easier. Believe me i know. It changes though. Quite a bit… It becomes hard for different reasons but it never gets easier and you are never free from it. So don’t do it if you don’t want to be responsible for having a *child* rahter than a miniature harvard educated in the womb adult born with a PHD certificate in it’s mouth.

I agree that parental responsibility is the ultimate answer. But I can’t let the pharmaceutical companies and doctors off the hook here. The doctors need to spend the time to learn the research as you have done. If they did, they’d be more in a position to be honest with people about the possibility that stimulants might cause or worsen depression or anxiety or even psychotic symptoms (and I have seen the latter happen more than once in my work). They’d also be able to tell people about the alternatives that are more likely to have a long-term positive effect on important outcomes. Of course, many doctors are either directly or indirectly on the pharmaceutical company payroll. This ought to be completely illegal, as it creates a conflict of interest where doctors are de facto rewarded for selling more prescriptions - they become drug sales reps without sometimes even realizing they’ve been coopted.

Which brings us to the pharmaceutical companies, who have consistently engaged in intentionally deceptive marketing and been successfully sued many times for it. They have also intentionally suppressed evidence that would adversely affect their bottom lines, and have unapologetically assisted in giving birth to several “disorders” (Social Anxiety Disorder being the most obvious, but there are many others) which can then be “treated” with their drugs. This entire “biochemical imbalance” talk that we hear everywhere we go was originally drug company propaganda which the medical community and then the culture at large accepted without scientific backup. Now most of the “science” being done is an attempt to “verify” what we “know to be true”, namely that mental illness is biological and that drugs are the treatment of choice. So articles like that last one about the lack of long term benefit are questioned by psychiatrists reflexively, because it undermines what amounts to a religious belief in the dogma of “biochemcial imbalances.” Mythology is hard to undermine and it is created in this case by the drug companies and the doctors working together to undermine and attack anyone who tries to direct the conversation to scientific grounds.

So we continue to fight. I acutally have a lot of compassion for parents trying to sort this crap out. But I have even more admiration for those who fight through it and find that there is another path. My two “cured” ADHD children stand as witness that medication is not the path to long-term success. There are other options. I don’t want to criticize parents for their choices, but I want them to know there are many other options that really do work in the long term. Sure, it’s hard work and it’s frustrating, but as you say, that’s what being a parent is about. Life is not convenient, and the sooner we realize that, the better parents we will all become.

The simple fact is this, there is ample blame and responsibility to go around.

The pharmaceutical companies are scummy and their advertising strategy and manipulation of the scientific data is a crime in itself. Not to mention the damage their products far too often cause to the people that take them. Most especially to children.

The doctors, who accept being pimped out for a small cut of big pharmaceutical proffets… To the detriment of their patients. Especially in the case of ADHD as it is probably (though i would have to double check this) the largest medical fraud in history.

Then we have the parents. Who place their trust blindly in the doctors so they can focus on their own wants rather than parenting proiperly.

Plenty of responsibility to go around. Even the teachers too lazy to do their jobs effectively for all their students. Even the ones who are a little more difficult. And the people who don’t pay those teachers what they are worth. Though i feel at the rate they are shirking their responsibilities in the usa anyway, they aren’t worth much. Lets not forget, Finnish teachers are payed significantly less than american teachers. 75% are trained to teach LD students though they have an extremely low rate of diagnosis. Because the average teacher teaches for *all* the students of her/his class there. For less pay no less! So sorry i have trouble feeling pity for american teachers always whining they don’t get payed enough. I agree, the good ones, are not payed enough. However the typical teachers are actually payed more than what they are worth considering american students rank as the poorest educated in the western world. Plenty of responsibility….

But blaming the child, making it the responsibility of the child by labeling them so harshly as other than less than because everyone in their life that is supposed to have their best interests at heart is failing them, is ludicrous! It aught to be a crime. Because take my word for it, it is definately child abuse. I know because i had it done to me.

I do not believe in the usa at this time parents should legally be able to have their children medicated for ADHD or for any other mental defect that does not cause major breaks with reality and delusions, or is not findable organically with the use of current science, or unless the child is a physical risk to themselves or others. If one of those 3 situations is the situation, by all means medicate responsibly and carefully. But for ADHD… No. The brains development is such that it is simply a really bad idea to medicate for such things until one is significantly older. I think for that reason medicating ADHD in children should be punishable for all involved the drug rep that sold the pills to the pharmacy, the pharmacy’s workers who sold it to the parent the parent who gave it to the child the doctor who wrote the prescription and everyone else involved, should be sent to attica for 20 years to life imprisonment. What is being done to children is a crime. I consider it a capital offense as it was done to me. Except, i oppose the death penalty. So i will settle for seeing everyone involved in jail. Maybe if we make a few examples where people actually go to medium and maximum security prisons for irresponsible prescription writing over prescription writing bad marketing etc… maybe we will see things begin to change. So i hope that happens.

Tragically, it is infact legal for parents to feed their children pills for ADHD…. It is disgusting the way we do it in the USA. I believe many of the european cases are legit. Because they diagnose so few and medicate even fewer. But in the usa over 20% of our students alone are medicated for ADHD. Less than a year ago CNN said it was 24%. Then add about 12% of students being medicated for other things… And what you have is you have a larger minority group in the usa of children alone not even counting adults, medicated for ADHD than the asian population and the african american population make up together as a minority group. That is scary. What is scarier is that no oen in our government is even catering to that fact. No one is even trying to garner favor with parents of these kids by promising to do additional things for their less than adequate offspring after they come of age etc. You think they don’t realize the numbers? Ofcourse they do! They don’t try it, because they know, parents don’t care. And the ones that do don’t medicate their kids for ADHD. Because they do the math they read they study and they decide based on reality rather than fear that medication is not for their kid. And as a result do not make it into that minority. For every child that makes up that 24% of america there are actually twice as many adults that have the vote… Just think about the numbers… If someone chose to monopolize on that and make it an issue. But they don’t because no one cares. GGetting your child labeled with ADHD is turning them into a throw away person. Someone society can care less about. How is that loving your child? It’s not it is cruelty.

But as long as it is legal in the usa it is going to be abused. And it is not the parents making the final choice that will be paying the price. It is defenseless children who’s brains will be paying the price for the rest of their lives as these drugs do seem to impact brain development.

If you are a parent, ask yourself, how long should your child be punished for being a normal wild child? Should they pay for getting on your nerves some for the rest of their lives? Because that is the punishment you are meating out when you take them in for evaluation which is in point of fact nothing less than a kangaroo court. I wanna see a study done on the number of kids sent in for ADHD evaluation and what percentage of them came out unlabled as ADHD and unmedicated. Because i have a sick feeling nearly every child evaluated is found guilty.

This process is entirely subjective. Their most important evidence is testimony from suddenly terrified parents. a very ambiguous multiple choice questionare, and a *SINGLE* letter from a teacher who says your child has ADHD. They will not consider any evidence that opposes the diagnosis. Then based on a preponderence of the evidence, such as the case with my friend. He had over 100 teachers from first grade through senior year sign a petition stating he was not symptomatic of ADHD. Then the teacher who just didn’t like him, presented a letter signed by herself herself and herself alone stating that he exhibited the symptoms. The school then hounded his parents as did this teacher that phoned them daily and put the fear of god into them. So they took him for evaluation but the evaluator wouldn’t even open the envelope containing the petition signed by over 100 teachers to the 1. It is in every sense a kangaroo court. Imagine being tried for a crime and being denied a defense attorney or the right to even present a defense in court. Then based upon the subjective evidence presented by the prosecutor and weighed by the subjective views of the judge you were sentenced for such a crime…. That is what happens to every child labeled with ADHD.

Oh and it gets worse and on another day i will make a post about that. Because that is another issue altogether. But the general society is terrified of those of us labeled with ADHD. When the fact is we are no more of a threat to anyone than the average person is. or rather the average normal person is. Is that really something you want to do to your child?

[quote=Mandi]No forgiveness needed! Welcome to the party PT1! Another rational voice on the subject toting the science rather than the Zenou or whatever it is from Scientology, is always more than welcome. Thanx for sharing another article!

Thanks Mandi.

Being rational is the only way to go but even that gets twisted by people.

Sigh!

Steve,

It is easy to remember people like you. You always are respectful of differing opinions even when you disagree.

Great point about the scientologist issue. I think in any situation, when someone uses what I feel is a smoke screen issue, it is important to say, “What does that have to do with –.

Your kids are very lucky to have a parent like you and your wife.

PT1