Weak decoding skills

From what you have shared it sounds like she is using her visual skills and memory by memorizing words. She doesn’t understand the sound symbol relationship. I have college students in a phonetics class in college who don’t understand phonology and as I have been tutoring them the common thread is they memorize words and their spelling is poor…

A speech pathologist trained in Lindamood-Bell LiPS could work her through this glitch. I think she needs more work in the auditory processing area and LiPS would provide the multisensory instruction necessary that she needs to understand the sound symbol relationship. If she gets this down she can decode the big words and have some tools other than her visual memory and skills to read.

A trained Orton Gillingham tutor could do the same. How long it would take would largely depend on where the holes are in her knowledge.

Robin

What kinds of instruction has she had in her sped and tutoring? Do you know the names of any programs. I teach phonology and still have 6trh graders who are relatively weak, it depends what you mean by weak.

Does she read on grade level or close? Frankly, in my experience, if they have not been taught phonology, there is almost no way they can really get beyond a third grade reading level. The number of different words becomes too great, them MUST use some version of decoding, though they may do so in conjunction with good context skills, however even then they will possibly begin to meet more and more words that they are not comfortable with in their speaking/meaning vocabulary (unless her vocabulary is at the 90something percentile.

She worked with an orton-gillingham trained tutor for 3 years. She could not read at all at the beginning of 3rd grade. This tutor was also trained in Project Read and she used the Lexia system. She made slow but good progress. This year, the school agreed to take over tutoring with a teacher trained in the Wilson system. Her Gates McGinite scores from one year ago showed her at the 5.0 level. Her WIAT scores are all in the 90th percentile except spelling which was at the 19th percentile, TOWL-2 tests were all at the 50th percentile or less. Her Woodcock Reading Mastery tests were in the 9 to 47 percentile.
School says she has trouble with words in isolation but not in contextual reading. IQ from oe yeaar ago VIQ 111, PIQ 117, Full Scale 115. IQ from 4 years ago VIQ 118, PIQ 137, Full Scale 130.

Do you think this is true for all kids? My 5th grade daughter has weak decoding skills but reads at 90% plus on national tests. She is a lousy speller—does well on spelling tests because of strong visual memory. She doesn’t always pronounce words correctly either—has far greater reading vocabulary than spoken one. She suffers from whole language teaching. I was probably taught some phonics but have the basic same profile, although not quite as extreme. I have learned decoding from having to teach my LD son.

That is a good question. I teach phonology and teach phonology and teach phonology, to a fare thee well. My students do well on the Woodcock Johnson word attack subtest (decoding nonsense words), some read it all the way to the end. However, on the word recognition subtest (lists of words that increase in difficulty), they tend to bomb and stay low. Most use the impulsive reading style so common to dyslexics, look at the word, decode part of it and take a guess. Many get very close on multisyllable words, perhaps just making one error in one syllable or getting the accent wrong. These problems don’t show on reading in context and they can manage 5th grade level materials (in smaller doses). One who merely looked at the word identification test score could accuse me of not teaching phonology, of being a poor teacher. I do believe you really have to examine all the issues and subtests to decide what is actually taking place. Does your daughter decode words at all?

Read my post to Beth, sounds like my students. You have had good instructional programs and for enough time for them to do some good. I would be inclined to suspect you will not get any more SUBSTANTIAL help from the school district if she can read. What was low on the Woodcock? The WIAT has two reading subtests: word identification and comprehension (reading passages and answering short answer questions orally that include a variety of comprehension tasks). Recall that legally the school is not mandated to fix every single subprocess if the child can perform the reading task adequately.

I am agonizing with the word reading issue after having students three and four years in good phonology programs. I have decided I need to FORCE them to decode long words regularly w/o too many aides (for 2 years we divided words into syllables, decoded syllables, then blended syllables and I permitted pencil and paper). Now I try to make them do this work with their eyes, but it they have to MAKE themselves slow down, scan across the word, think about how to chunk the word, then do so. A nondyslexic just does this, almost naturally, with minimal instruction. If I had the luxury of time, every day for the next three years, I might be able to get them to where I want them. As it is, these fifth and sixth graders can read/comprehend on 4th and 5th grade level. Another thing that has worked for some is to put them with my aide and start them on shorter, high interest chapter books and make them read every day for 30 minutes (they take turns). I have done this all year with fifth grader who was not progressing well after three years of services. Just Monday he was reading a book on the Bermuda Triangle, he was reading words like “collision” with fluency and relative ease. Much of the issue is just making the time to sit every day with the child and have them read, reminding them to use their skills. In time, if you have the time, it will get better providing the foundation skills are well-taught.

An adult dyslexic told me she taught herself to read when she became a parent (after years of remedial classes in school) by forcing herself to read for 2 hours every day. Gradually she could decrease this and finally she could even skip days and not lose her reading skill. That was how badly she wanted to read aloud to her children, plus she was at home and had the time.

Woodcock Johnson tests
Word Identification PR 17
Word Attack PR 25
Word Comp PR 38
Pass Comp PR 47
Basic Skills PR 15
Reading Comp PR 40
Total Reading-FS PR 25

How far can one reasonably expect to get with these tutoring programs? Is there an endpoint? I am concerned that without continued tutoring, she will stay at this reading level and really struggle in the upper grades when textbook reading becomes more important.

Those scores don’t jive with the WIAT at all, do they? Obviously, the word attack is still weak. My students do well on word attack and bomb on word identification, as I already posted. When they know they have to take the time and sound out a word because it is a nonsense word, they marshall all their energy and concentration and do it. It is downright hard work for them.

How are the state/district standardized tests, such as the SAT 9? Those should be looked at.

The only standardized testing the school does are the ERB’s which she had done a year ago. Verbal Ability PR 25
Vocab PR 4
Reading comp PR 31
Writing Mech PR 7
Writing Process PR 9
As usual, her performance is inconsistant.

Yes, she decodes but not really well. She has the basics down—but certainly reads much better than you’d expect. For example, she didn’t know the sound associated with “ch” when spelling. Now she may know it when reading…. I think she falls into the group of kids who would learn to read regardless of how badly taught. Some kids, including my daughter, learned to read with whole language. I see the fall out with her spelling though.

My LD son, who knows how to decode better than she, makes all the sorts of mistakes that you talk about.

I agree with Anitya, her word attack is on the weak side and her ability to apply it on isolated words is weaker still. The phenomenon she describes, where students can learn pure decoding and then lag in their ability to apply it, is fairly common. They are more focused on the pure decoding with nonsense words, and their vocabulary actually gets in the way for a while when they try to apply the skills to real words. It is comparable to learning to dance in a way- the individual steps are learned, and then there is the task of putting them together to make a graceful whole- which is quite different:) The solution is actually what Antiya is planning to do also- good for you Anitya- to force them to apply the skills more quickly on real words. Phyllis Fischer, author of Concept Phonics, describes this in her article”Getting Up to Speed” which is in the LD In Depth section on this site- Sue Jones also has it posted on her site. Ken Campbell addresses this issue with his fluency program too (Great Leaps). I would start with the Fischer article and see what you think. Continued work on her decoding is a good idea- it isn’t likely that she will stall where she is if she doesn’t get it because she is reading now and there will be a certain amount of growth just from that, but she isn’t finished with the work she needs to do by any means that I can see. You don’t post her standard scores but to qualify for services she needs a 1.5 standard deviation between her regressed IQ score and her achievement in a basic skill area. It works out to about 22.5 points depending on which formula they use (in some districts it is 18 points). Good luck!

Robin

I read the article by Phyllis Fischer and looked at the web site for Great leaps. Are either of these programs something I could do at home with her? I need to decide on a plan for next year when she will be in 7th grade. This year she was in all regular classes except English & Reading where she was in inclusion classes. In addition she had 2 periods/week with the Sped teacher for tutoring with the Wilson system. Next year this would not be an option because of scheduling unless she were pulled out of the standard reading class which the school would rather not do. We can have her privately tutored over the summer. What specific questions can I ask the sped teacher about her current tutoring program. Should I ask her where exactly she is in the Wilson program and have the summer tutor pick up from there? If I did either the Concept Phonics or Great Leaps at home to work on fluency as well, does this sound like a reaonable plan?

When she had her 3 year eval last year, the only subtests in the language area were Spelling 87, Listening Comp 118, Oral expression 119. Should there have been other subtests done? The difference between Spelling and regressed IQ score is 28. Is spelling considered a basic skill? I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. This is the longest, hardest, road I have ever travelled. I never thought 4 years ago when this all began that I would still feel so unsure about what we are doing!

Certainly the speed drilling could be done at home- though my kids generally wish that I was elsewhere in siutations like this:)Absolutely find out where your daughter is in Wilson for the summer tutor- that makes only makes sense- and the tutor could address fluency as a part of that work. It only takes about ten mintes a session. My personal belief is that it should be done regardless but that is another thread… Ask the SPED teacher to come with you to the IEP meeting if you want- I always went. Then she can explain directly to the new person what she did. Failing that for whatever reason- the more you know about your daughter’s services the better off you are. So ask anything that you think of- there are no stupid questions.

In my neck of the woods poor spelling skills are not generally enough to qualify for Spec. Ed. The categories are Oral Expression, Listening Comprehension, Written Expression, Basic Reading Skills, Reading comprehension, Mathematics Calculation, Mathematics Reasoning.

Our junior high provides services during study halls usually. There are potentially two per day- we have a block schedule so the timing is a bit different- one of those is slotted for remediation and one for supervised study hall. If a child has reading instruction in their IEP then they work it out around that- speech and language also. Some kids with heavy service needs have a reduced schedule or a three year plan for 7/8 grade- but that is rare. The point is that it is possible for your daughters instructional needs to be met in a departmentalized environment like a junior high school. HER needs are what drive the IEP- not what the school is willing to do. Junior high can be just as creative as they want to be. Do not worry too much- arm yourself with what you know and what you want to know- read over your parental rights again- and write your questions down beforehand. Then just make sure you get answers. You will feel better, your daughter will do better, and in most cases the school staff will enjoy dealing with a parent who is concerned and informed. Good luck!

Robin

My dd is alot younger than yours (7 and in 1st grade) - but she has a very similar profile as your daughter did on her 1st WISC - very strong on the PIQ and weak on VIQ. (I am finding it interesting that your dd’s PIQ went down so much on the second IQ test? Anyone have any thoughts on that? )

Currently, we have made great progress on reading (spelling/writing is not so hot), but she is reading 2nd grade books and the other night made it thru a beginning 3rd grade level.

I bought the Reading Reflex book and we practice daily (or we use to anyway) the word analysis exercises mainly and some mapping. What I saw with my dd is that her high visual/spatial skills made her want to look at words wholely(thus all the look and guess tendancies) - vs. scanning/decoding the sounds left to right. (the gifted development center sight talks alot about the visual-spatial learner and the fact that many have poor auditory sequential skills- so this is common with our profile of kids). The RR word analysis exercise (which is sooo easy -you don’t need to pay a tutor for), helps her to re-inforce the whole decoding process, where it is now starting to become more second nature to her and although she still has a tendency to not decode the whole word - she has improved sooo much. I have great hopes that with practice, practice, practice she will overcome this.

She is supposedly getting some Lindamood Lips in school - but it is not intensive enough at all - I know it is not doing any good. What I don’t like about the tutor required programs out there is that they are complicated enough that I can’t reinforce it at home - which is where she gets most of her reading practice. The school is not giving me any thing for us to practice at home, so I have no idea what they are even doing? With RR exercises, if she gets to a difficult word, we pull out the dry erase board and do word analysis on it, blend and run etc. If you are not helping to reinforce what the tutor is teaching the child as they practice at home - they may not have the oppty to practice what they are being taught??

We have also done alot of cognitive memory exercises over the last couple years. She still needs some work on auditory working memory and some language/vocabulary help. I’m considering PACE this fall to further address her working memory issues, and more auditory processing skills and then potentially Lindamood V/V for the imagery and verbalizing help.

Bea,

I’ll second Dea’s suggestion to take a look at Reading Reflex. However, due to your child’s age and your willingness to hire a tutor this summer, I would suggest that you find a Phono-Graphix reading therapist and let him/her do the actual training, while you oversee the practice reading and required homework between sessions.

Phono-Graphix is the name of the curriculum set out in Reading Reflex, and there are trained therapists now over much of the country. Check the website www.readamerica.net to find one.

You should see good results in about 12 to 20 hours of instruction although some kids take longer (especially those with a previously undetected vision problem.) I would also suggest getting the names of some satisfied parents from the therapist to verify that others are getting the results that you seek.

Hope this helps….Rod

Thanks once again for everyone’s advice. I have some good ideas now and I plan to research them and see what I can find in my area. I feel a bit more energized about the subject now than I have in a while. Thanks again.

I was reviewing this website for research on how to teach writing to students with learning disabilites…I teach LD students in Isle of Wight County, Virginia. I was looking through this bulletin board and read your e-mail.

I work with high school students who have major reading difficulties. Their major problem isdecoding skills. Their comprehension is fantastic as long as they can read it I received instruction in the Wilson Reading Program which my greatly help your daughter. My students are having great success with it. It re-teaches the students in sessions the rules of our English language. Our language is made up of six basic types of syllables. This program teaches the student 1 syllable at a time to mastery then adds a new syllable.

The awesome thing about this program is it teaches decoding and encoding simultaneously. As the students learn to read the words, they learn to spell them as well.

If you would like any more information, just let me know.

Leslie Snyder
Newport News, VA

blank

I ran across this website just this evening and was surprised to see that I am not alone. My son, who is currently nine years old and in the third grade has problems decoding words and spelling words with more than one syllable. Despite the fact that we are continually reviewing spelling rules, letter sounds, blends, etc. he just cannot seem to remember what he should do. Because he was having such difficulty in school I decided to homeschool. This decision came about because I felt that he responds better when he worked one-on-one and mainly because he was starting to become anxious and self- conscious of his inabilities around his peers in the classroom.

I would love to receive more information on what you are doing with the high schoolers you work with so that I might determine whether or not it is something that could be useful to my son.

I’m interested in whatever you can tell me about Wilson. We are struggling with trying to get services for my 8 yo son with weak decoding skills/add and auditory processing probs. School has teachers familiar with Wilson or Project Read (and possibly Stevens?). Psychologist suggests Orton-Gillingham. Looking for some direction about which to pursue. Any info would be GREATLY APPRECIATED

The tutor that I first worked with had some training in all these reading programs and took what parts of each that worked best for my child. (except Stevens, I’m not familar with it). Our neurologist told us that any good, multi-sensory phonics based program would help her and not to get hung up on which one. Find a good tutor that clicks with your child and ask questions-How long have they been practising; are they fully or partially certified; etc. Don’t take summers off, you lose too much ground.

Both Wilson and Project Read are Orton Gillingham based and use multi sensory techniques and both are good programs. Both require some training to do well. The key when using a program, for a tutor, is to know enough (have enough training) that you can individualize the program to the child. Folks with less knowledge tend to run the kids through the program as if the program was the secret and then wonder why the kids aren’t making the gains they should.

Stevenson is a completely different approach to reading instruction relative to both sequencing and cues. I find it awkward to use but there are a lot of people who swear by it. I have used it more with very low functioning students mostly because the cueing system is VERY visual and concrete.

The poster above here whose psych suggested that they worry less about the program and more about the expertise of the tutor is quite correct. A good tutor will use good techniques- which technique and sequence is less of an issue as long as the tutor has good diagnostic judgement. Programs are designed to make the teaching process less time consuming for the teacher because the materials are prepared. But you still have to know what you are doing.

Robin

Thanks so much!!!

Thanks so much!!!

Rod- I’m stuck. I have a student who has received intense outside tutoring in Phono-graphix, which I’m a big fan of, but does not seem to be translating the skills learned there into everyday reading and writing. Different things seem to work for different students and I’m just not sure which program to point the family towards at this point. Any suggestions of what usually works for someone who isn’t making the leap from Phono-graphix?

Hi Lisa, The students that I have worked with that are still having problems with reading after PG and Great Leaps, need vision therapy. I least if they test him, then you would know that it isn’t. Give me examples of what you mean about translating skills that he learned. After PG in my classroom, I do extensive error correcting practice with the students reading out loud. It is one thing for the student to know the skills but another, to use them. I would say that it takes about a year for most kids to become a reflex reader and only about a month, (in a class) to be taught the skills. Maybe all he needs is someone to do some extensive error correction with him for a while.