Former IRA President - Gets it Right

All well and good to take your time - if you have the time. In Florida up to 20 non-reading students are placed in learning disabilities Reading classes at a time. Don’t think we haven’t fought tooth and nail for 20 years to get this changed - it’s only gotten worse - people have given away education to the “Lower taxes” mantra. These great (and quite expensive) programs are not available, nor will they be available, in the next few years in my neighborhood.

Many children’s (notice I did not say all) lives can be changed in very short order with clearly organized direct instruction interventions.) Many children who cannot read do not have learning disorders of any kind. Their gains hold over time - in fact, we have mounting evidence (a doctoral thesis for some enterprising educator) that when a child reaches the (approximate) 4th grade level of reading - the need for reading instruction changes dramatically. Inspiration becomes of great importance. Children’s reading levels can zoom with no formal intervention.

With 6th graders I firmy believe you have one to one and a half years to make signficant strides in their reading. The transition from cute non-reader (6th grade) to hardened delinquent (8th grade) is not my particular nightmare - it’s a national occurrence. We have a variety of effective weapons in our reading arsenal - this is not the time to disparage any but the mercenary. Ken Campbell

OK, I am *cranky* today.

It piqued my interest a bit, too… but after the article, my interest had reached its peak and was starting to go downhill.

I read “long haul” in the man’s *stated* goal… but then couldn’t find anything else about it — no longitudinal information at all. HOwever, many, many references to quick fixes (despite the title). “as few as 20 lessons”… “In a five week period…” “…in as few as 10 lessons…”

THese quick gains are very consistent wiht the kind of results repeated-reading programs provide. However, repeated reading only teaches the skills to the students who are “propelled” by natural intuitive abilities to generalize to other words. SOme students are. Many others aren’t.

Frankly, without more information, I find nothing to support the idea that “in it for the long haul” is anything more than a good marketing phrase.

THey arrive in sixth grade, still with hope… wanting to please the teachers, wanting to learn and be smart… and by ninth… they’ve learned who their “peer group” is, only usually those kids are *much* better at the kinds of street smarts than they are.

This article contains one possibly good idea vaguely mentioned among a lot of the usual sales stuff — meaningless self-praise and snake-oil miracle cures.

I have a 13 yr old boy, 7th grade, who oddly enough isn’t discouraged yet and still wants to please the teacher - but I know it’s just a matter of time before he gives up. He has a meriad of problems - add-inattentive type, dyslexia, phonemic awareness, fluency, auditory processing. I’m interested in finding a reading program that might help, but I don’t have 3 yrs or thousands of dollars to spend. What do you think gives the most bang for the buck and truely translates into everyday reading and comprehension skills - not just improvement on the program’s tests?

I have a 13 yr old boy, 7th grade, who oddly enough isn’t discouraged yet and still wants to please the teacher - but I know it’s just a matter of time before he gives up. He has a meriad of problems - add-inattentive type, dyslexia, phonemic awareness, fluency, auditory processing. I’m interested in finding a reading program that might help, but I don’t have 3 yrs or thousands of dollars to spend. What do you think gives the most bang for the buck and truely translates into everyday reading and comprehension skills - not just improvement on the program’s tests?

Get a private tutor, not a big profit-making company. Get someone who will work truly one-to-one.

Get someone with experience and success in teaching kids to read. Ask for references - a good tutor will have at least a couple, either local satisfied customers or letters from satisfied customers of previous years.

Get programs — again, you look for content and quality, not advertising from a big profit-making company. Get something that teaches solid phinic knowledge, and something with good developmental vocabulary.

Do your own part. Deliver the kid to tutoring regularly, on time, at least twice a week and preferably three times, and with as good an attitude as possible. Let the tutor teach, and avoid trying to turn it into paying to have the homework done - that is really non-productive.

Then be reasonably patient and wait for ten to twenty hours tutoring. If you have a good tutor and time-tested program and your son is willing to work, you will see real improvement starting in this time.

At the going rates of $25 to $40 per hour, you will see solid results within the first $400. spent. (much more if you insist the tutor come to you). Be reasonably patient again — your son had seven years of 500 hours per year in school and that didn’t do much, so don’t expect all problems to be solved in a few weeks.

If it doesn’t work at all, pull out and try someone else.

This is the kind of work I do, and the only way I get and keep customers is that they see improvement.

I’m going to add a list I post occasionally of how to locate a tutor:

Here is a list of places online and physical that can refer you to paid
tutors in your area. BUYER BEWARE - you MUST check out these tutors in
person — the internet service just lists them without being able to
verify either safety or competence.

a. Go to the IDA (International Dyslexia Association) bulletin board,
go to the side of the bulletin board, click on Branch Services, find
the email or (more likely) phone of your state/country IDA branch, and
contact them looking for tutors in your area; they maintain a list.

b. Go to ISER.com (Internet Special Education Registry). Both education
centers and private tutors are listed here.

c. Some colleges and university departments keep lists of tutors. This
is common in math departments, sometimes found in ediucation
departments, and sometimes in job placement offices.
Colleges and universities also have physical bulletin boards where
tutors post their phone numbers.

d. Tutors often advertise in local and/or weekly papers, which are
focused to their area. Check the classifieds.

e. Some other online tutor referral services are

TutorNation.com
TutorDepot.com
Hire-A-Tutor.com
hometeaching.com
FindATutor.org
TutorList.com
Tutor.com (give your subject and grade and search for the place to
check for in-person tutoring — hard to find but supposed to be there.)

Victoria, I pay 20.00 an hour for a private tutor and I agree it is the most bang for my buck. She is so patient and seems to know how to relate to my son. She works with him 1 on 1 at the library. She is very no non-sense she expects him to work hard. When he started with her he was so discouraged because he knew failure for so long. She started with sharing her story with him about not being able to read until she was 30. She let him know that with hard work she was able to get where she was. She walked him through study skills, worked on phonics with him, taught him about reading for a purpose. He has improved his reading skills by 3 years and his self-esteem has sky rockted. He finished reading his current story for lititature ahead of time because he thought it was interesting!!! I must say if you can find the right person it is so worth the investment.

… if what he’s missing is that sound-symbol connection, that’s at the basis of the fluency and comprehension problems, too. You can be totally cheap and go to http://www.auburn.edu/~murraba/ for how to teach phonemic awareness and that “sound-symbol” connection, as well as fluency. Priscilla Vail has written a neat little book called “Reading Comprehension” that I like; JOanne Carlisle’s _Reasoning and REading workbooks are also good. HOwever, I usually tackle the accuracy *hard* first, because if that’s not good then all the effort is going into that and it’s the limiting factor in the comprehension — and all the work on comprehension is having to go through the poor accuracy skills, so it loses effectiveness.
There are some other programs listed on my site at http://www.resourceroom.net/Surfin/index2.asp#phonemic .

…JParker, don’t be scared away (unless, of course, it’s your product).

I did not post the message (a copy of comments by dhorton on the IRA site) to endorse the Individual product.

* have not used the program and did *not* know of it prior to reading Horton’s post.

HOWEVER! I do know of Dr. John Manning, and I did want to spread POSITIVE accolades for a 70 plus year old man who has done nothing but work to help children read.

I have seen Dr. Manning speak and work with folks that have been his student at the University of Minnesota. As I understand it Dr. Manning is:

- The Sr. Professor Reading at U of M

- Leader of the Mississippi reading initiative

- 4 time past president of the International Reading Association (IRA)

- And was the author on many of the DICK & JANE readers

Perhaps, if my information is correct, this gentleman does deserve a little respect?

I hoped we could focus on a man that appeared to be doing good things for children and educators? Anyone want to change the focus of this thread to a positive discussion of reading and reading professionals?

Jason

If you post a link to something that is banking on the *appearance* of doing good, then I”m sorry, I am *not* going to say cheery and positive things for the sake of saying cheery and positive things. Too many kids are illiterate because appearances and marketing are valued more than reading skills. SHow me the emperor’s clothes before you ask me to admire them.

I have really been encouraged by the Baltimore SUn’s coverage of reading — including of reading professionals — over the past couple of years.

I do not remember speaking with disrespect of this gentleman, and I do not remember anyone else here speaking with disrespect of him.

Unfortunately, as most of us have discovered from hard experience, just because a person has degrees and is a member of associations that claim to support reading teaching, this does not mean necessarily that this person is well-informed of facts rather than myths - in fact many education departments and reading associations are the homes and firm supporters of the myths.

It is important, if we want to move away from myths and into facts, away from religion and into education, to separate the value of the person from the value of the message. A very good and very well-meaning person may be misinformed.

A lot of damage is done in reading programs by desperately well-meaning, loving, kind, and hard-working kindergarten and primary teachers who work themselves to the bone selling brute memorization to children because thy have been taught that it’s the right way to do things.

It is also common for senior people to lend their names - or to have their names taken without their full permission - as endorsers of a product which they actually do not know much about.

In either case, if the person is misinformed or if he/she is endorsing a product which does not live up to standards, it is a positive thing to suggest a change. Anyone with real academic and scientific standards of their own will investigate new ideas and accept them given reasonable proof. A person who cannot accept change is considered to be academically irresponsible and loses all respect.

Accepting ideas based solely on the authority of the speaker was the main rule of philosophy of the Middle Ages, and the Renaissance and modern discoveries depended on the “new” idea of refusing to accept ideas on authority but to re-investigate the facts.

If this is to be a forum of serious discussion on reading education, we need to drop medieval ideas that just because the ex-president of the IRA says something, as quoted by a third party, then it must be so and we cannot argue it. Discussing truth and proof is not disrespect. On the contrary, I can only discuss things rationally with a person I can respect.

Who is contradictory now? You are suggesting that research is preferable over misinformation - but with no information, no research, you have decided what the company and this man is doing.

Rather than suggest more research is warranted or attempting to gather information, you suggest Dr. Manning is selling his name, or is to *old* to understand what the pedagogical elements of the program he designed (not endorsed DESIGNED) might be.

Dr. Manning is CURRENTLY the Sr.Professor of Reading at the University of Minnesota and CURRENTLY the leader of the Mississippi reading initiative.

He is continues to lead Doctoral studies and develop remedial reading techniques, and you have done what? You are published where? You received your doctorate from?

Continually you refer to brute memorization; where has it been suggested that this man or the company has EVER deployed these techniques. Facts? Research? Information? DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD OTHER THAN SELF-AGRADIZING RAMBLE?

I think your lack of research as well as your lack of ability to accept responsibility for your quick judgments and misrepresentations speaks great volumes.

But the upside is you are able to judge the professional career of top educators in five minutes and 300 words. I’m sure these same traits make you very valuable to your students and associates.
.

My, you don’t agree with what someone writes, so you insult them personally. This is called an ad hominem argument. And again the argument by authority; someone is a professor so he must be right and everyone who disagrees with him must be wrong. Two of the major fallacies of bad rhetoric.

I do not aggrandize myself, and I am not quoting my own work; once again I refer you and everybody else to the NIH (I hope that you do accept the NIH as a knowledgeable source? Possibly better than one professor at one college?)

The NIH/NICHD study titled simply “Teaching Children to Read” reviews over fifty years of reading research, and thousands of studies — I hope you can accept that this perhaps might be better than one person’s opinion, your favourite professor’s or yours or mine. It is available here on the LD in Depth part of the site. Enjoy your reading.

I am sorry that you are upset by my posting about the program. It certainly seems to have brought out your defensive side!

Endorsement and appearance were your words “I hoped we could focus on a man that appeared to be doing good things for children and educators?” That is the statement to which I referred.
Nowhere did I state or imply that Dr. Manning endorsed rather than designed the course.

You posted a link to a “news release” from a company about a new product. I made commentary based on it. If you re-read my posting, I made it rather clear that my conclusions were based on that information and were speculative in nature.

Why do I refer to memorization? Because what little was mentioned in the promotional press release referred to ” The rigor and incremental repetition of IndiVisual Reading’s exciting approach guarantees this success,” “successful repetition” being a key to this program. I therefore made some comments about programs featuring repeated reading.

Assuming that self-aggrandizing was the word you were looking for, what statements do you interpret as such? I grant that I had negative things to say about the press release, but I can’t find any self-aggrandizing statements.

I stated the conclusions that I came to without further information.
Rather than provide further information, you told me you did not endorse the program, had never used the program, but wanted a positive thread. So I restated my reasons for my less-than-positive response to the limited information you had provided, and then provided a positive angle of my own.

You chose to respond with a personal attack — so I can only conclude that a positive thread is not your true agenda.

You seem to have lumped Victoria’s and my own responses into one. We are separate entities a nation apart.

Are you new to the Internet? Your response is called a “flame” and I won’t be responding further to it.

JParker,

If you cool off and reread everything that is driving you bonkers here, you’ll see that Sue and Victoria tried to engage you in discussion about the merits of your posting and you took it personally and switched to a personal attack.

Everyone gets pretty thick skinned in here after meeting a couple dozen people like you over the years, so it really doesn’t bother us one whit, but don’t expect much respect for your further postings unless you decide to switch to rational argument instead of, as Sue put it, “flames.”

Nice meeting you…..Rod