Am I doing the right thing? (Resistant/difficult child)

Hmm,Lori,I feel you! My youngest,now,13,sounds very much like your son.

Here is my question to you; does the negativity stop abruptly after the program? Is the program carrying over into your daily lives?

If the answer is no,then I say,how are you reacting to his behavior? Do you get upset and angry back? Do you ignore it? Can you ignore it?

my youngest still has trouble reacting appropriately to frustration/anger,ect.He can’t seem to get a handle on self modulation,he has a real difficult time doing it. When he is in front of me,his Mom,he lets it all hang out,carrying on like a crazed person. I know it isn’t directed at me personally,but it took a long time to figure this out. His dad has a hardtime not getting mad when he isn’t winning a game either,so what can he say?

Learning when and where he can freak out is as important as letting him freak out.

But if the program is causing a rif between you and yours,(family) then I say,you need to decide if it is worth it,and how much of his behavior you are willing to allow him to have. My husband ALWAYS leaves the room during homework time,he can’t handle it.

Here is how I look at it. EVERYTHING is a learning experience. If you spend abundent time trying to control your behavior,then you lose focus of what the program is teaching you,right? It is hard enough trying to control everything about yourself,sometimes you got to let it all out.

Lori,

I agree with you that you need to be in control and not your son. It sounds like he needs some behavioral therapy. Have your tried a point system with the Audiblox? A point system can be set up where he gets points for doing certain tasks that you require. He can have points taken away for certain behaviors. You can have punishment set up for really ugly behavior. It is really not acceptable for him to scream and be disrespectful to you. Your husband should not allow this to happen. If you can’t get him to cooperate, then I’d get help from a child psychologist or similar professional. You will have much bigger problems when he is 15 than you do now if you do not get him under control.

However, you can give him a little control by letting him help choose his rewards or some other educational activities to work on besides Audiblox. Kids like that need a lot of structure and consistency. I made a mistake of not reigning in my own son well enough and we had some problems when he was older.

Janis

Again,
I still think it depends in what context this is all happening. No a kid shouldn’t be disrespectful to you,I totally agree,but I also think you need to give him an outlet to have frustration,and that it is okay to be frustrated and angry.and when one is frustrated or angry,one doesn’t necessarily know the perfect things to say to vent this frustration. I think probing is in order,but I do believe respect is a two way street.

This reminds me of my daughter as well. (High perf., low verbal). She would literally kick me under the table when she came to a word she didn’t know. She was much more “physical”, especially when angry and we had our fair of meltdowns and standoffs.

Fortunately, as her remediation kicked in and she went to a bd. cert. SI OT, the OT kept reminding he to “use your words”. Her OT also gave her that “safe place and the trust factor” to admit something was hard and that was okay. When she began OT if she picked up balls while swinging, when she got off the swing she literally could not tell you what she did or how she did it.

After much remediation (and probably maturity) she does now “use her words”. Instead of having of meltdown she will say (LOUDLY of course), “MOM, you don’t GET IT this is hard!” or “YOU’RE giving me too many things to do at once! I don’t KNOW what to do first” THen I realize I’m the one overloading her.

Hooray. She used to not ever want to admit something was hard.

I agree with both Socks and Janis (like it would matter if I didn’t :-) ).
Though I did “put up with” some disrespect early on, by the time she reached 3rd grade it was much better (Tho we still have an occasional meltdown)

I think a lot of it is frustration. I know my daughter quit grinding her teeth at night about 3 months into LMB (she had done this since she was 2)

JMHO

When we had our son evaluated, the neuropsych. made a comment to me as we charted our course of remediation and therapy. SHe said “its time for mom to be mom, and not the tutor…”

I have continued to do alot with my son since then, (homework, home vision therapy etc) but she correctly pointed out that my son needed me to be his mom. He was getting so much pressure and intervention from others he needed me to be safe haven, if you will. My son is also a model pupil for everyone else, but there is a dynamic that kicks because its so much more loaded with me.

Its a balancing act of course, because you need to do things like audioblox with him at home to help him.

This summer my son’s thing is whining. So I decided to give him a reward for not whining that is apart from the general bribery for doing therapy. My son loves this pizza bites that I won’t buy. So every day he works without whining he gets bagel bites.

Perhaps you could reward him for not melting down with something small like that. I suspect he has a hard time managing his frustration and is responding inappropriately. Sometimes a little incentive can lead to more self control.

Beth

Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses. I tried to message back yesterday 4 times with great frustration. I’m using my husband’s laptop and for some reason I am hitting keys that make what I’m working on disappear! For some reason, it seems to be worse after I’ve composed a well thought out document of some sort.

It’s really helpful to hear from others who deal with the same or at least similar issues!

To answer your questions, Socks, I don’t think the negativity carries over after the exercises are completed. However, I do think the lack of control my son displays adds to his negative feelings about himself. He feels bad about himself after he lashes out. Now, mind you, the block exercises aren’t the only thing he loses his cool over, but it adds significantly to the load and it’s more explosive with them than with anything else. But eliminating blocks wouldn’t eliminate the negativity…unless he never had to anything he didn’t want to do!

Although he is a generally happy and outgoing kid, his anger has other sources. He holds it together much better for the outside world than he does for me, and to a lesser degree, his dad. He has severe allergies including food allergies (what doesn’t have wheat, egg or dairy in it that’s any good?), so I end up being a far more controlling mom than is healthy for our relationship.
Now, things are improving over the absolute deprivation he survived from the time he was 5 til 8 years old. For 1 1/2 years during that time, he couldn’t have any of the above at all and [b]everything else [/b]was on a rotation basis…(rice day, potato day, etc.)! So things are looking up, but the anger seeds have already been planted!

I also think his performance issues have taken their toll. As many of you realize, it’s really hard to feel really smart sometimes and really stupid other times. When he was in preschool he was quite advanced academically, but couldn’t draw or write a thing or even hold a scissor, and as you know, “You are what you can make”! His sports abililities are poor, also, although improving.

As far as how I handle it, most of the time I keep my cool and warn him when he says something inappropriate or screams. I do want him to get the exercises done in hopes that improving his skills is an important step toward his feeling better about himself and therefore dealing better with others! Other times he pushes my buttons and on a few occassions I have totally exploded! I hold it in and hold it in until I lose it totally! Then I feel horrible about myself (Iwonder where he gets that trait from?).

Janis, we are looking into behavioral therapy right now. He turned 9 in May and I was hoping that the therapy we have helped enough so that behavioral therapy wouldn’t be necessary, especially since I didn’t know who to go to. I’ve found someone I think, although he’s not on our plan. yes, I have often scared myself silly t hinking about these same behaviors translating into teenage disasters!

As far as a point system is concerned for the exercises, it sounds like a good idea. Maybe I can give him 1 point for doing them, and an additional one for good self-control! Thanks!

I’m going to answer additional suggestions/comments in another post and get this one posted before I lose it! Thanks everyone!

Thanks for your patience with me, everyone!

Leah, my son’s split is the exact opposite of your daughter…although he was last tested in the second half of K and he’s now going into 4th. His verbal IQ was very high and his performance was the lower number (25 pt. spread which I understand is very large). He’s had OT, neuronet therapy and vision therapy since. He’s never really hit a wall with any therapy, but never been the most cooperative little puppy on a consistent basis, either (sometimes yes, sometimes no). I don’t understand these tests very well, but I guess your daughter had some verbal weaknesses and probably needed to learn to use her words. My son’s words are his worst problem! Maybe the biggest chunk of his problem is the emotional aspect????? I often wonder what a mild anxiety drug would do for him! But I’ve never really explored that avenue.

Thanks so much. I often hear about children that complain and whine, but don’t often hear about children as resistant, stubborn and angry as mine is. I guess I need to hear that this type of behavior is not generally typical of children who have a learning disability - that there may be something more to it! And I have to find out what it is rather than keep putting stock in variouis therapies to remedy the problem!

Lori

Oh, let me say that I do agree that we have to be careful about pushing them too hard. Especially after a day of school, I think the fatigue factor makes it much harder to push them. My little one had very little tolerance for doing something she perceived as too hard (like reading) at the end of the day.

But Lori, I think you are acknowledging that his anger is a little beyond the norm. So I think it is wise of you to seek some help. He indeed might need some therapy and/or medication.

Janis

If there is a chance that you child has sensory issues this might help. My son had a high level of frustration with all the work whether it was therapy or homework. I have found that giving him the right sensory environment helps him to stay in control.

He seeks proprioceptive input. So, before homework and in between therapy sessions I will stretch his limbs for him on the floor. His favorite stretch his holding him under the rib cage and lifting him up.

This helps to relieve some of his tension and it also sends the message that mom is here to help in whatever way she can.

I also point out that all the therapy has lead to less time doing homework which has always been the most stressful thing to begin with.

I have also done a lot of behavioral modification since he was 5. I don’t accept negative behavior and a I don’t project it either. I will quit in the middle of an audiblox session and tell him calmly to let me know when he is ready to take it seriously. I tell him this isn’t for me but I am willing to help him stay out of sped if he wants the help. He hated sped so that works. I tell him he is really smart and that once he deals with his vision problem everything will get easier.

My son is like yours low nonverbal scores related to a visual motor deficit and a gifted vocabulary.

When I saw all this at first you didn’t outline the whole allergy thing.

I. too, have celiac disease, the one that makes it impossible to digest wheat products or any other grain with gluten (oatmeal, rye, and some others). In severe case, like mine and your son’s, it also brings on severe lactose intolerance so all fresh dairy products are out. Sometimes cheese is in, and sometimes not, and it’s very confusing. Mine has caused enough damage to my digestion that I also have a lot of chemical sensitivities and trouble with fiber. This is NOT fun, believe me.

OK, now remember the very very worst flu you ever had — the one where you were vomiting to the point of dehydration and starting to have delirium/hallucinations; the one where your gut was cramping so hard you thought you would die, and started to maybe pray that you would; the one where you were running to the toilet every hour or less, and suffering from sleep deprivation because of all of the above.
Now imagine that, while you are feeling like this, somebody is yelling at you to concentrate, concentrate, all you have to do is work harder. And you absolutely have to learn this chapter of math and this Spanish vocabulary right now or you will be punished.

This is life for someone with a digestive disorder. You spend all night up with your gut on strike, and the next day you want to crawl out of your own skin, and everyone is telling you that it isn’t real and you should just get over it. And you can’t even talk about how you are feeling because it isn’t “nice”.

I used to have bad temper, unpredictability, all sorts of problems. Now that the diet is very much improved, so is the temper. I’m still sensitive but I don’t often fly off the handle any more.

I would very strongly suggest that you do some research and work more on the diet problem. I found for myself and my daughter (this is hereditary) that there are a lot of hidden ingredients that don’t cause major attacks but do cause low-level flare-ups which are bad for the mind and personality.
For example, in any main dish, watch out for “natural flavour” and “hydrolized vegetable protein”. Very often this is MSG or something similar, created by processing wheat. Even in trace amounts it’s bad news, causes gut irritation, cramps, fatigue, and concomitant irritability. In canned veggies especially tomatoes, watch out for citric acid — it’s now usually produced not from natural fruit but by a process using bacteria, and it can cause all sorts of irritation. In chocolate, even dark chocolate, watch out for milk ingredients. I also have trouble with artificial flavours and/or vanillin (not vanilla). You have to look hard, but find a lactose-free margarine (right now Fleischman’s has one) In ordinary tap water, there is a stew of chemicals that neither I nor my daughter can handle. Even bottled water has too many chemicals for me, so we keep searching out natural springs that the government hasn’t yet closed to protect us from nature. Even veggies can be a problem; potatoes are often treated to stop sprouting, and I can’t eat them, so off to the organic aisle and triple prices. I have also found a brand of eggs (Burnbrae free-range) that I can digest because the hens are eating a natural diet without chemicals. Oddly enough I can digest Coca-Cola (no substitutes or off-brands), a life-saver at times when all else fails.

I would strongly suggest that you try working on getting as many hidden chemicals/lactose products/wheat products as possible out of his diet, and keep it up for a few weeks. You should see the general irritability decrease. At that point then it’s possible to work productively on the therapy and behaviour modification.

Email me at [email protected] and I’ll share diet tips and recipes.

Linda F - My son does have mild sensory issues and does seek proprioceptive input. At 9, he still comes into bed with us in the morning and loves to jump on us and roll on us, etc. He’s still very physical, or rough, with his body. His feet are sensitve, although some times more than other. Sometimes he has to put his socks on inside out so the seam is on the outside. Another example is that he hasn’t worn sneakers in a while because he’s been wearing sandals and flip flops and had a fit about how his toes were all squished together when he put his sneakers on the other day! Wouldn’t wear them at first. When he’s stressed his karate pants can’t touch the top of his feet…he has to roll them up. Other times they’re fine.

I don’t have a sensory diet for him, but I often will ask him if he wants to jump on the trampoline first or we play this quick pushing game. Sometimes he says he wants to; othertimes he says he doesn’t. I’ll put more of an emphasis and push on this however and see if it helps…thanks. I guess this whole aspect of things has gotten pushed to the back burner.

As far as just staying calm and ending the exercises, I’ve done it a couple of times when I’ve had some leverage like, for example, seeing a movie when we’re done. Therefore there’s some kind of consequence to not finishing. Usually, he’d be thrilled to just stop….that would quickly become the MO. Although he knows he has difficulty with copying from the board and his writing and organization are poor, etc., he doesn’t have the special ed incentive as he’s in private school and it doesn’t exist. He’s managed to get by so far (altho he’s in the bottom 1/3 of the class based on report cards). He doesn’t realize just how his skill deficits will effect him in the future, however. We’ve talked about some things (Idon’t want to scare him), but it’s not real enough to motivate him to do things he hates! Right now, he earns a prize (dollar store stuff) each day when he does his exercises. But it’s not very often that we have something he wants badly enough to do the exercises for. It helps that he gets a prize, but he knows he has to do the work anyway..no choice. I’m going to rethink the prizes and have 2 somehow….or a point system…1 for doing them and another for keeping his cool.

Linda, without the sensory workout, would your son get nasty (screaming and name calling?) Just wondering.

Also, what do you mean by pulling him up under his rib cage? Do you mean lifting him into the air or pulling him to a standing position from flat on the floor? My son is almost 70 lbs. now.

Thanks so much for your reply.

Lori

Victor will be 7 in September. He tests very high in verbal ability but anything requiring visual processing is challenging for him. He’s so bright, he’s very interested in science and is great at understanding and connecting different concepts… but he’s still struggling with reading the word “the.” All summer, I worked with him on some nice academic workbooks I found. He resists because it’s hard for him. I try not to get mad when he has a bad attitude about it. I talk to him calmly about how he feels, offer rewards for good work done with a possitive attitude and I make him do extra work if he complains. I understand completely how he feels because I have the same learning challenges and even so, it’s easy to get frustrated with him. I also know that if we don’t do the work at home then he will be at risk of not making it through school. I didn’t have any help and I didn’t make it through my first year of high school. It was many, many years of painful struggle before I was able to go to college successfully. I studied about child development, how the brain works, special education… so I’m in a pretty good position to work with my son. But the most important thing that helps me work with him in really understanding how hard for him it is and why. My advice would be to keep working with your son, stay calm, communicate with him, offer rewards for good work and remember to spend time with him on things he’s good at to help keep up his moral and yours. Today, we’re headed to a science museum where Victor takes classes. He loves it.

Lori,

My son is generally more whiny than defiant but we have had our times. I have done something similar to what Linda describes. I end the session of therapy and send him to his room. He has to stay there until he is ready to do the therapy without being difficult. This is different than just ending because he does have to do it anyway. I have done this as much as when I have just had it as anything else. Sometimes he will come back and say he is ready and I will say I am not so he has to wait on me.

Beth

My son also has sensory issues,and of course giving some form of sensory stimulation helps to calm him,unless the opposite happens. (he has become agitated instead.) Which,to me,is not the same thing as becoming frustrated during homework,remediation,etc. What is normal behavior and lacking of control? Seems to me that definition is different depending on where you are. I think your son needs an outlet. IMHO

You can only do what you can do. We try our best to work with our children, be it homework or extra remediation. With some kids, my own included, they need home to be the place where it is a relief from the difficulty of each school day struggle academically, and holding it together emotionally. There’s a lot of acting out at home, refusal to do work etc. Each parent must struggle - and I use this word bacause that is what it is for me - with the balance of supplying extra help and providing an atmosphere that minimizes stress and anxiety and promotes security and happiness. I know that I am so concerned that my son gets every bit of help he needs that my anxiety is a negative influence. If it can’t be arranged for a tutor to provide a service that you cannot get done yourself, sometimes you have to put it off.

My son can get very rude and difficult but not with me. He does this more with my husband. They both can go at it at times. He can whine with me sometimes when we are doing therapy that is very difficult.

When my son was 5 I found this book that has made a very big difference in our lives. It really is a very good behavior modification technique that I and several friends have used with tremendous success.

It is called, “Backtalk;Four Steps to Ending Rude Behavior In Your Kids.”

You can find it for $8.00 on amazon. I found out about it when a good friend saw a 20/20 special about parents using this book to change their children’s behavior. It really is a nuts and bolts manual on how to address behavior through natural consequences.

I even used it on the dear hubby.

I hold my son just under the rib cage hugging and lifting. I lift him off the ground. He is also 70lbs and 9. My friend is physical therapist certified in sensory integration and she told me to try this. When he is acting impulsive and wired I will just call him over and do this rather than admonishing him. He usually will breathe a heavy sigh and say, “Thanks.”
I think you have to try several things and you will know what he needs by what he finds calming. Too much stimulation can be bad for some kids.

Other things we have done that he really liked were having him throw a ball into a children’s basketball hoop while riding on his skateboard, jumping off the steps in a controlled manner, laying on the floor and pulling and stretching his limbs, lifting heavy objects, (he loves to bring down the laundry for me.) He doesn’t have the same touch sensitivity he once had. He used to never wear anything but sweats and was bothered by all tags. We have done so many things it is hard to say which got rid of that particular problem. It might have been the interactive metronome or the sensory integration OT he did at school. He didn’t have a severe touch sensitivity to begin with. He did chew on all his clothes and that has also stopped.

I also agree with the post about understanding just how tough it is for our kids. Sometimes just telling my son that I know it is tough and that I appreciate just what a hard worker he is will motivate him to finish.

We used to spend 2 hours doing homework that at the end of last year took only 30 minutes. That was more stressful than all the therapy we do. With the threrapy we see progress. The homework had that mouse on a wheel going round and round kind of feeling to it.

That is me Linda F. not Hi Lori. I mixed up the subject line with the username.

My 8yo daughter reacts negatively to reading, writing, homework in general. She had a lot of anxiety and said she was scared to read sometimes she just got mad and angry. This behavior tended to be situational but she did become anxious/worrisome in other situations.I was considering consulting with a psychitrist for antianxiety meds. for her, my husband and myself. I was sick at the way these outbursts disrupterd our family life and relationship. I was tired of doing so much tutoring and work with her just to “keep up” in public school. She hated being pulled from class for resource and the resource help was a joke. We enrolled her in an LD/ADD private school with very good programs to remediate dyslexia and staff trained in handling children with ADHD She loved it, I loved it. All I do is read 15 a day with her she chooses the book and one math or language assignment. total time about 30 to 40 min. No extra tutoring or implementing programs in additon to school. She gets it at school now. She’s with children that are her intellectual equal but also have difficulty with reading. No one makes fun of her. I can’t believe the change in my behavior and hers. It’s a financial hardship,but I can’t think of a better investment. It’s working for us. We will keep her there this fall.
I think you have to balance academics with social-emotional well being. It may take her longer to graduate from high school or college but hopefully I will have a decent relationship with her and the rest of the family will not suffer from the fallout as much.

It’s certainly true that in life we sometimes have to do what we don’t want to do. But it’s also true that in life we have choices. Which image of life do you want to present to a young child is the question.

And there are many ways - and many times - to teach the lesson that sometimes we have to do what we don’t want to do. I wouldn’t understand why Audioblox becomes the only way for any child to learn that lesson or why you would dwell on that lesson every day. It seems a little grim.

It also seems to me as if Audioblox isn’t working for your son. No program is the right program for every child. It may not be that your son resists this program because it’s hard. It may also be that he senses it isn’t working for him and at his young age, he’s acting that out rather than initiating a discussion with you.

I’d have to agree with your husband on this. The tremendous negativity takes a toll on you and on your son - and on your husband as it seems to be driving him from the house as it’s too painful to watch.

I have two LD children of my own. We hope within ourselves that if we do just the right thing, it will be all right. If we can find the right thing to do, the right doctor,or the right program, we can ‘fix’ the learning difference. Sometimes we feel if put a great effort into one thing, the other ‘things’ will be taken care of.

I did that with a reading program. I found it, I believed in it and believed that if my son did it, he’d do better in school. I think I almost believed that he wouldn’t have learning differences anymore if only he would complete this reading program. I forced him to do it and it came to make us both miserable. When after a year, I finally asked him why he always acted this way when we did the program, he was old enough to tell me the truth. He said he knew I wanted it to work but that it just wasn’t working. He said he was spending hours a week and he knew inside himself that it wasn’t helping him to read any better.

when I protested that he hadn’t given it enough time, he pointed out that we’d been doing it for over a year. When I insisted he was reading better, he gave me a long look and said, “who would know better? You or me, Mom?”

then he said, “Mom, nobody wants me to learn to read more than me. Why would I lie about the program? If it was working, I’d do it every day all day but… it’s just not working. Please let’s stop wasting time and money and let’s figure out another way to help me. Maybe I need books on tape…”

they say ‘from the mouths of babes’ comes the truth. but my son was 14 when he told me that. At 14, children aren’t quite children any more and they can say some remarkable things. Your son may be trying to say the same kind of remarkable thing but at his young age it comes out as calling you names.

Forgive the length of this post and please know I wish you and your son all the best.

My son does vision therapy and has a great deal of difficulty with it. He really can’t stand it at times.
The vision therapy we are doing now is very similar to audiblox. I have done audiblox with him but stopped because it was just a repeat of vision therapy.

This week we were working on a set of visual memory exercises. He really struggled and even had one major outburst of frustration. Then I said, “Just focus, you can do it.” He pulled it together and he did it. It was like he had climbed a mountain. He felt the rush of working hard and overcoming hardship. The next day a friend of mine was here and he was doing those exercises while she watched. He was only able to remember 4 squares of tic tac toe the day before which was an accomplishment for him. In front of my friend he had a burst of competancy and was able to do 6. He was beaming from ear to ear. She was impressed and told him she could never do that.

I guess my point is that we do avoid that which is difficult. It is human nature. There are days I would rather skip vision therapy but I know that it helps him and will in the end make his life easier. It already has.

I have been through the 2 hour homework sessions. That is the past for now. I hope that it will stay the past and know that is only possible if we stay a few steps ahead of his disabilties. We have already conquered reading. He can read anything. We are working on math and writing which in my estimation can only be conquered by addressing the underlying visual motor deficits. I can’t teach around these deficits.

I worked with paraplegics, quadraplegics and brain injury patients at a well regarded rehab facility. I saw some amazing things happen but only with hard work.

It has to be done with patience and encouragement. Don’t address the deficit at the cost of the child’s self esteem. It can be like walking a tight rope at times.

Linda.

You said something interesting:

“I have done audiblox with him but stopped because it was just a repeat of vision therapy.”

How much alike are they and what skills do you see Audiblox helping?

Janis

Our first task in vision therapy was to address focusing and tracking. He has mostly overcome those problems so we are working on visual memory, visual perception, visual spatial issues, laterality etc.

We do many exercises where he gets shown something quickly and he has to remember what he saw just like audiblox but with audiblox it is all about remembering blocks. VT varies more so in a way it is easier not to burn out. One that we did involved drawing some forms that were pretty difficult like a sideways ‘s’ with a small square below one side and a small circle on the other. He will even have to do two and the second might be a parrallelogram with a line through it. I also mentioned the tic tac toe exercise which was quite good. We also did one with remembering letters and numbers backwards and forwards that reminded me of LMB seeing stars.

We also do exercises to automate left and right. We do ones now that seem more advanced than what we did with audiblox. Please excuse me this is a little hard to describe, but here goes;
Picture a sheet of paper with this repeated in columns about an inch apart. There are about 50 on the page.

x l o l l x l o

The line represents the midline of your body. The x is your left hand and the o is your right hand. Now, you have to place the correct hand to the correct position (either to the left or right of the midline.)

For example o l has you placing your right hand across your body to the left of the midline. l o will have you placing your right hand straight out to the right.

We do this with his eye patched as well. That is really difficult. He can do it with both eyes.

Audiblox has a similar exercise but it is easier. We did an exercise similar to the audiblox one when we started.

So the exercises are similar but VT is customized to his particular problems with tons more exercises. I don’t get the impression that all optometrists get into this level of depth to address visual perception issues. Some just deal with focusing, tracking etc.

Hope this helps!

Thanks, Linda. I just had LB testing and they have recommended Seeing Stars and V/V for Anna. I knew that’s what they’d say, but I needed test results on paper. They think her lack of symbol imagery is hurting her reading fluency. She’s fine on decoding skills unlike most reading disordered kids. I cannot learn every program on earth at one time, obviously!, but I am thinking of trying Seeing Stars and then go to Audiblox if necessary. I don’t see the symptoms of visual deficits in general, so I am not inclined to go to great distances to find a dev. optometrist, but Audiblox is a reasonably priced option to try first if Seeing Stars does not do the trick.

Janis

We tried seeing stars first and although he could do it to some extent it just wasn’t translating to the school work. That was with me doing it and I had no training so perhaps if it was done with someone with actual experience it would have worked.

He really did have some profound visual deficits that I was not aware of. Sitting there in the exam room with the optometrist while he examined my son was quite an eye opener.

I don’t know exactly how symbol imagery is related to visual perception and exactly what specific (visual spatial, visual memory etc) visual perception skills are the key to symbol imagery.

Also, take a look at vision builder. It is a very good program for the money. Try searching vision builder reading under google. If you can’t find it, I will look again.

Linda,

There is a memory element there, but I’m not sure to what extent in the visual. She has terrible phonological memory, yet her word attack scores are high. She knows the code pretty well. I actually have Brain Builder but have hesitated to use it because I can’t find any real evidence that improving digit span generalizes to other memory tasks.

Thanks for the sites. I’ll check them out.

Janis

I’d like to thank everyone who took the time to offer their advice and words of wisdom regarding therapy with a difficult and resistent child. I’ve had computer difficulties so I haven’t been able to respond quickly as I normally would!

Thanks, Victoria, for the information you provided on the impact of allergies on behavior…and I agree with you fully. On many an occassions I have seen my ds ‘s central nervous system go ablaze from an allergic response. His OT and neuronet therapists both felt that his motor difficulties most likely originated from his many ear infections and years of inner ear fluid. Getting a handle on his allergies has been a long and difficult process. There really isn’t anything additional I can do right now, though. After much trial and error, we’ve finally gotten to where we can keep him healthy and feeling pretty good (other than emotionally due to feeling abnormal and deprivation of foods others get to eat all the time and he doesn’t). He takes 4 shots a week, which I administer to him at home. He avoids the top 3 foods (wheat, egg and dairy), does saline irrigation of the sinuses 2 x a day, and takes singulair and an antihistimine. He’s doing well right now and is starting to eat some foods more often - he’s been able to be with our dogs (they don’t live in the house) much more often this summer. But we still have to take precautions and make sure his “encounters” with food and inhalants are spaced out so his system can handle the load. It’s much improved over the past though, so I’m hopeful that he’s on his way to a more normal life.

Linda F - our kids sound like they have quite a bit in common. I’m going to order the book you recommended about backtalk - thanks. Just wondering, did you let your son watch alot of tv when he was really young? I did (although it was only educational and Thomas the Tank which he adored) - I’m always going to wonder how much of an impact this had on his hypo vestibular system!

Victor’s Mom - My ds loves science, too. WE haven’t made much time for it this summer, though, because it takes to long to get him to get what has to be done done first. I’ve tried to teach him to “work hard, then play hard”. But he’s a tough one. In the process, we’ve lost the chance to do what he really loves. Reading your post reminded me of that! Thanks!

I’m out of time for the moment, but will post again. I’m going to call tomorrow and make an appointment with a neuropsych…my husband and I agreed to that today. We need help with behavior, and we’ll let him advise us as to whether he should be tested or not.

Thanks, everyone!

My son didn’t like T.V. when he was little. He wouldn’t sit too long for T. V.

He wouldn’t sit too long for anything. He was highly verbal, loved imaginary play. He was ALWAYS intense, asking a million questions about everything. He was always a lot of fun but in a taxing sort of way.

I think in hindsight his dislike for T.V. was related to his visual problems.
Our children do seem very similar.

We had a family party yesterday and one of the cousins again mentioned to me that he has become a remarkable young man. He sits with the adults and gives adult like insights to the conversation without interrupting.

I honestly think the biggest change was related to interactive metronome. It was after that he stopped fidgeting at school, stopped running around like a maniac, stopped needing to have everything from the homework explained 3 times.

Linda F.

Does Im work for ADD/Inattentive, or just for “H”. How long does the “program” take? Do you do it at home or at a provider?

Linda F. - I got goosebumps about your comment about imaginary play. When Matthew was just 3, we took him to a psychologist for the first time. I remember telling him how Matthew had started not to really play with his toys…almost everything was imaginary play! I remember going on vacation and just taking books which he adored. I remember he would “take” characters from books or magazines or whatever and “play” with them. I mentioned it to the psychologist for his feedback, but I really wasn’t concerned about it at the time…actually I thought it was quite remarkable, and actually, so did he! As I recall, we sought help with behavior already at that time (hitting, etc.) We didn’t go back to that dr. - for other reasons I didn’t care for him.

The next psych we saw a while later thought that Matthew was amazing…no problems…just very intense and hard on himself - we went to him primarily because my husband and I couldn’t agree on what school to send him to for pre-k 4. Nothing about what we told him about Matthew sounded an alarm to him- and he was a revered professional in our area. Even he didn’t alert me to his motor problems - I remember him telling me he kept asking Matthew to draw a picture of his family (I guess a typical psych thing). Matthew kept coming up with excuses. During his last visit, the dr. asked him for the last time and he asked him if he could draw it at home and mail it to him!!!! He was 3 1/2 at the time….the dr. said he had never heard a more creative excuse from a child his age! So he never saw his lack of skill in this area! He wasn’t concerned and never pushed it! So 2 psych’s didn’t pick up on anything.

A developmental psych we saw about 2 years ago commented about the imaginary play thing when I gave her an overview of Matthew’s history. She felt it was a possible sign of NLVD…you know, avoiding the manipulation of toys. I don’t think he has the NVLD syndrome, but he definitely has non-verbal weaknesses. Visual motor was where he scored lowest when he was tested which was 3 years+ ago now.

He did always watch tv though. I really blame myself for relying on it too much when he was young. I wonder if it effected his development.

Lori

Lori,

Your son sounds like Leah’s daughter—amazingly creative, face saving ways to avoid things they could not do as preschoolers!!!

My husband and I are not TV watchers but we plopped Nathan in front of the TV as a preschooler more than I’d like to admit. I can still hear those Sesame Street tapes that he loved. He was so difficult and it was the only way we had any peace. I suspect both you and I did not really know what to do with our difficult children and were coping the best we could.

Beth

LM

Some have found IM more helpful than others. My son has a visual motor deficit, sensory integration issues and sequencing difficulties but he wasn’t extremely hyper. He was more active as a toddler but outgrew some of that. He would sit through school but would fidget. I never pursued and adhd diagnosis because I wanted to address his LDs first. As strange as this sounds, I only realized just how much his attentional issues affected his learning after his attention improved after IM.

Areas of improvement included executive function, sequencing, and attention. He could sit through homework with out getting up for 5 glasses of water. He completely stopped fidgeting in class and he certainly was in a class where he should have been fidgeting. He hated the teacher and they were not allowed to move.

Just so you know my son needed more than the normal 16 sessions of IM. We saw a big change with 24 sessions even though his timing was not perfected. We did another 10 sesssions at the beginning of the summer and will do a few more at the end of the summer before school. You do it at an IM provider. You should read the research.

www.interactivemetronome.com

Lori,

I personally believe that NVLD is the hot new diagnosis of the day so it is getting applied to a lot of kids who have some non verbal issues. It is real, but it is also quite rare. My son is like yours he has a visual motor deficit but he doesn’t fit NVLD. NVLD kids are usually not creative. Our boys are off the charts creative. Gosh, my son was just like that, so verbally bright he fooled everyone even me for a long time.

NVLD kids also have social issues and lack a sense of humor. That is just not my son.

I get a little annoyed at the constant need to apply a syndrome to all children. They are all a little different and should be viewed as the glorious individuals they are. Very few fit perfectly into any of these syndromes.

You have to realize too that some individuals spend their life and make a name for themself by discovering syndromes or labels.

I bought BackTalk on your recommendation. It was an eye opener. I saw that a lot of my irritation and frustration at my children was due to their way of talking to me. I didn’t always tolerate it but my ways of dealing with it were not effective. I very much tried to rub their face in the punishment which only causes resentment.

So I started today and found out I am really a wimp. My 12 year old daughter did the “whatever” to me and gutless me didn’t cancel her friend from coming over. I found out this is really really hard. I warned her and she shaped up. I think she could see where she was heading. I warned my 10 year old once during therapy—and told him I was like his sister—but then he did major backtalk. He asked me between exercises about some Yu gi oh card. Of course, I know nothing about it and said so. He got this arrogant look on his face and acted like I was the stupiest person on earth and said “you don’t know anything about xyz”. I told him he couldn’t go swimming with us this morning which sent him into major melt down. He had to sit on the sideline. He whined most of the time and I kept more voice even and held my tongue and telling him that this is what he gets for….(my usual response). I noticed when we got home he changed the way he was talking to me midsentence.

I am always told how polite my kids are so I never thought they were as bad as I now realize they are. I think it is just a contrast with most kids today—as well as the fact that they treat everyone but dear old mom better!!!

Anyway, thanks. It should be interesting around here.

Beth

I haven’t read the book. Sounds like I should :-)

Though, Beth, I’d rather them act bette for others than me (would be nice to have it ALL). I would never want them thinking, “Oh, no. here comes Mrs. ______________’s kids”.

People tell me my kids are very polite, etc. I’m always shocked!

After Jami went to SI OT I figured out that I was only adding to her “sensory overload” by fussing at her. (Gosh, that’s one of the things I’m SO GOOD AT!)

Beth,

It is tough going in the beginning. I remember it got easier and all of a sudden I felt powerful. I know that is a weird word to use but it sums it up. My friend who was also using the book and I used to joke about it.

It was a strange feeling to know that I could influence my child’s behaviour so dramatically.

That book was a godsend. It completely changed my attitude toward parenting.

Good Luck

Linda

Linda,

I actually think powerful is an accurate word. I have felt powerless and have acted powerless. Not good.

We’re going to visit relatives tomorrow which should prove the ultimate challenge. Mostly because denying them priviledges is denying them access to family they don’t see very often. I told my husband that we need to agree each morning what we are willing to take away from them that day and follow through.

Leah,

It certainly is better to have polite kids in public. I remember when Nathan was 3 and a major behavioral problem at home. He was hitting us and putting holes in his walls. He was an angel at daycare. It gives you just one problem to solve!!!

Beth

Beth,

I used to set up fun things that could be taken away if needed. I would tell him we were going to McDonalds after school. He almost always had a tantrum at the end of the school day. As soon as he started in I took McDonalds away. When I initially did this he just screamed louder. I just told him calmly, “I know you will be able to leave school without a problem tomorrow.”

After doing that one time he never had a tantrum leaving school. This was in preschool.
My friend would give her daughter a lollipop after lunch. If things didn’t go well that morning she would lose the lolli.
For older kids I would set up trips to the mall etc.

I think all of this is in the book.

Linda,

That’s a good idea. I know the book talked about having things you can take away but don’t recall constructing treats so deliberately. My 12 year lost a trip to the shoe store and a trip to the library (to get the books she needs to read for school) this morning. She wasn’t very happy, especially about the library (she is a bit of a compulsive organizer), and asked if Daddy could take her to the library tonight. I told her Daddy had to pack (we’re going out of town tomorrow) but that maybe grandpa could take her when we’re in Chicago. Not her idea of how to spend her vacation!!

She told me that it looks like she can’t say anything and should just keep quiet. I told her she can talk all she wants as long as it is respectful.

Anyway, I think your idea is a good one and would make the impact on me less (sometimes it is easier to do things while out than another day, if you know what I mean).

Beth

The “I can’t say anything around here!” or “You won’t ever let me do anything!” is the classic manipulative response. Schoolteachers smile at this one. Do not let the kids use it against you. Yes, the answer is “Say/do something acceptable. I won’t let you say/do things that hurt people.” You won’t be popular for a while, but this isn’t a popularity contest.

Victoriah,

You’ll like this. My son’s MS teacher saw this at a Water Park we just visited. The sign read:

WARNING: Failure to follow rules and use common sense may result in harm to yourself or others.

She said she wants to get that sign to put up in her classroom.

It just drives the kids crazy in the beginning when they speak in such a disrespectful tone and you don’t respond in kind.

Ahhh the process of the power shift.

Eventually, they do get the fact that you are a person who deserves and expects respect.

Children deserve respect too but this isn’t a democracy. The parents are in charge.

My daughter is 12—queen age for manipulation! I am just glad she isn’t 15. I think this would just be that much harder.

I have to tell you guys about the conversation at my table last night at dinner. My husband wasn’t there and we talked about backtalk the whole time. At one point, my 6 year old said that they could use backtalk with Daddy because he doesn’t care. I asked why he said that. He said “because all he says is don’t use that tone of voice with me.” Clearly, the kids have interpreted all our “don’t talk to me that way” as not really caring. It was quite an eyeopener.

My daughter told me (after losing a few more priviledges and having work added to her day because there was nothing else I could take away) that she wasn’t even aware that she was backtalk. I told her that is because it is so natural to her and that she probably is doing it with a lot of other people too. I told her I was doing her a great service by helping her be aware of her language!!!

My two younger kids have shaped up quickly. We even practiced different tones of voices!!

Beth

Beth,

You go girl!!!!!!!!

We’ve been away on vacation with my brother and his son. I’ve been doing much thinking, especially after seeing some of the interactions between my son and his cousin, which I will share!

Sorry everyone! I’m still on hubby’s laptop computer which drives me nuts…I already lost my first attempt, and accidentally posted the previous message!

Linda F - I had really high hopes for IM for Matthew (and am still hopeful). We signed him up for 15 sessions and he started right after New Year’s. This is something I’ve been looking forward to doing for a while. Unfortunately, he had to stop after the 11th session because the negative pressure in his middle ears kept increasing, and as it did, his motor fluidity (sp?) and frustration tolerance decreased. In hindsight, we should have stopped much earlier, but the therapist felt he was doing well even with the pressure. Things just went out of control at session 11 - his pressure was up to -250. I observed him that session and he was so stiff and overcompensating that he was actually bending at the waist with each clap of his hands - so stiff and awkward that I could have died! And he couldn’t do circles with this hands as he clapped - it was awful! I saw a little 6 year old girl in the other room who started the same day he did and she was so smooth and concentrating so wonderfully. Matthew was a time bomb at that point!

We decided to resume/add sessions after his system cooled down which took a long time. I thought we would resume this summer. But the therapist, who is an audiologist, suggested sound therapy first. The sound therapy she recommended initially was the LIFT one, which is a major commitment of time and dollars. I had a Central Auditory Processing test done before thinking about that any further. He passed - didn’t excel, but was in the normal range for his age. Actually, I’m not an expert, but he really seemed like an ADHD kid during the CAPD test. For example, when he should have been listening, he kept asking “how many more”. He’d get the last 10 right when he was told there were only 10 more (you know, the end was in sight). But even with this, he was in the normal range (although barely on 1 of the tests).

I had already started audiblox with him - although on a very intermittent basis since December. I wanted to get this done daily during the summer (ha ha!). Since that commitment was already made and doing it was like pulling teeth, it was impossible to think about doing anything else in addition…even just The Listening Program. I’m still thinking I should do TLP before finishing up IM. It’s not too expensive, the the therapist said she has seen it just calm kids down….which mine could use!

The other thing I thought I would mention is that Matthew actually didn’t do badly on his pretest for IM. He was a 99, which was just 1 or 2 points above the high normal number for his age! I was actually disappointed because I really wanted to see lots of room for improvement. It’s kind of weird because he is obviously not the most coordinated little puppy. Maybe he did as well as he did because of previous neuronet therapy. His score was a complete shock because he sure didn’t look like he was doing well - he “looked” so uncoordinatedl The therapist thought he should do it anyway and that if he could get down to the desired level it would help him. So as I mentioned, we’re still planning to resume. We’ll stop the audiblox soon (can’t imagine doing it once school’s back). Then we’ll do TLP, then resume IM. That’s my plan. Any comments/feedback?

Also, Linda, wanted to comment about the NVLD thing. Like your son, my son has always had a keen sense of humor (non-NVLD), but he does have some social issues. I just haven’t always known whether they are the NVLD type (not even realizing what’s inappropriate) or the ADHD type (just being impulsive and not thinking before he acts). I’m tending to think it’s more the latter. I’ll write about a couple of experiences in Disney, but out of time for right now. I also don’t want to lose what I’ve written again. So sorry to be so verbose!

Thanks so much!

Lori

Wow Lori you really have been through the ringer with therapy. I read you other vision therapy comments.

What do you think of audiblox? Are you seeing improvements on the exercises that transfer to other things? I think I will pick up audiblox again after vision therapy if there is a need.

We are doing 5 more sessions of IM next week. This will bring us up to a total of 39 sessions when we are done. My son’s timing when we started was basicly nonexistant. He had no timing according to his therapist. IM has helped him tremendously and I would really like to get his overall timing in the low 20s. We finished last time in the low 30s but he got his hands down to 16. He still had trouble with the bilateral and the feet exercises.

I think it is interesting that despite your son’s awkward movements he did not score too badly. I have a friend whose son sounds just like yours. He didn’t do too poorly with the timing aspect of it but you could see the quality of his movements was very poor. He was hitting the beat so hard he looked like he might break something. An occupational therapist wrote a case study about a boy just like this. Our therapist had a copy of the article. There were postive results.
How did your son do with longer sessions? From what I understand the long burst challenges are where the ADHD kids have a problem maintaining the attention to stay with it.

I don’t think I will ever know what my son is or was adhd, nvld, dyslexic, whatever, it doesn’t even matter anymore.

My friend is lending me the listening program and I think I will do it with both my boys. I might even do it myself.

Linda, I can’t tell you definitively if I see any transferring of skills from audiblox yet. My gut feeling is that we will see some improvement, however. Now that we’re back home and company is gone, I’m going to have ds do some schoolwork review before starting school. He hasn’t done any schoolwork all summer….not even any writing, although it was my intention to have done quite a bit of writing. Getting audiblox done has been all I’ve managed, and that has been pretty inconsistent. I added it up the other day and figure he’s done about 39 hours since December…that’s only an average of 5 hours a month…way less than they recommend. But even so, I do think we’ll see some benefit. I will report back.

Re: IM and your friend’s son, do you know the jist of the report? Was it on the benefits of IM for kids with jerky movements, but decent timing. My son was the same as you describe….very loud claps/stamps…I thought he would break the little device that gets strapped on his hand!!

Thanks, Lori

The article was in an occupational therapy journal. I will look for it next week when I go back for more IM with my son.

I remember that the child used to bang cabinets and stopped after IM. There were other changes but my memory is failing me on the specifics.

I bought the Backtalk book the other day that Linda recommended. I started implementing it the night before last when my son called me an idiot under his breath. He did this because I asked him to turn off the t.v. and clean up his playroom so I could vacuum it, and then we were going to get dinner (a take-home meal he really likes!). I went to get an empty clothes hamper and I picked up his toys that were not in their correct place and took them from him. I didn’t get upset, but he sure did. I won’t provide all the gorry (sp?) details, but he ended up without his toys and without the dinner he really likes. He came out of his room later and asked (very politely) if I could make him a vegetable other than the stringbeans I had told him I was going to make.

Last night was really something. He’s a tough cookie. He ended up again without his special meal (and we were in the drive-up line), going to his room for the night before 7:00, no playdate after basketball camp today and the next 4 days without t.v. I won’t tell you how bad it got to earn him all of that! I will tell you that for the first time ever he swore at me…called me a 5 letter word starting with a B. I thought I’d die, but I kept my cool. Somehow idiot didn’t seem so bad :)

I can see he’s taking this all very seriously now (Ithink!) I think the main thing that’s different with this approach than in the past is the disengaging part! I have been very tough on him…he’s not a kid that’s gone without major punishment. But it’s never seemed to work, and then I’ve come to the conclusion that maybe he just can’t help it…maybe he is ADD and just can’t think before he speaks. After all, why would a kid do this to himself? So I have not been consistent…after a month or so of tough punishment, and him crying that “you don’t know what it’s like…it just comes out of my mouth…I can’t help it!” you think, you know what, maybe I’d better cool it a little with him. Then you ignore a little and gets worse and worse. And so the cycle repeats itself.

So we’ll see if the disengaging part and the really immediate logical, consistent consequences is the trick. If not, then once and for all I know he needs professional help with this…meds or whatever!

Call me crazy, but just maybe, more respect will help us with therapy. Maybe he’ll cooperate more simply because he knows he won’t get away with not cooperating! I can dream, can’t I?

I’ll keep you posted! Thanks Linda for the recommendation. I wish I knew about this book before!

Lori