504 Question

First, you have to try to enroll in the class and be barred from doing so. Make sure to save all pieces of writing. Then, you need to write a letter telling that you believe civil rights violation occurred and how it occurred. Then, if not corrected quickly, go to federal Office of Civil Rights and file a claim. Free.

Just do your paperwork, though.

Susan thanks for your response. It is a little more dicey than it appears in that bcs you sign up for your electives, and then you attend an iep meeting and school personnel say you need help, so you need to go to resource room, and therefore, you need to relinquish one of your electives, or you do the iep meeting first, and they take 1 elective period away. They are not barring you in that you may choose 1 elective when reg ed children may choose 2, but you are barred from both electives. Additionally, they are very careful to add that when you no longer need special pull out instruction, then you may take the electives you are needing to give up now (in future years you can take that class, should you no longer need resource room. Of course they fail to mention that you loose out on classes requiring lower level electives as prerequisites). This giving up an elective business means that you have an entitlement to exactly half of the access to a second foreign language, exposure to business courses, art classes, dance, or whatever else non-handicapped peers enjoy bcs that is what the school day then allows for. Is this still a 504 issue? Doesn’t anyone oversee that, additionally, inclusive classes exist throughout the class offerings on the high school level?
Anyone with insight please address my questions and concerns. Thanks.

Hi Lucy,

Does your child have an IEP? I think the points you bring up are good - but can you PROVE discimination?

OK, does your child have a 504 plan or an IEP. 504 doesn’t have anything to do with special education. It is totally separate. As a special educator, I don’t even know who is on a 504. The students receive the accommodations in a regular classroom by the regular teacher, so the student can receive accommodations in any class.

You may want to address the policy itself by asking for a 504 ruling from the office of civil rights. It is denial of access to the same programs as non-disabled peers. Just having you write such a letter and ask for a conference and letter back would shake some things up.

This policy simply isn’t just and seems to me (not a lawyer) to be outside the boundaries of what students w/disabilities are entitled to have.

I’ll have to agree with Shay. Kids on a 504 are not in resource classes at all. If the child is on a IEP, then it has nothing whatsoever to do with 504. Knowing what we’re talking about here would help.

Janis

In answer to everyone’s question my child has a learning disability and has an iep. In response to Janis, a child with an iep is covered under section 504 as well. Not all children with 504 plans are eligible for special ed services (but some are).For example, a child with a 504 plan due to asthma does not necessarily need special instruction. They may need medical care and modifications within PE and the classroom to breath normally. Not really relevant to my question, but as a side comment to Shay and Janis, in our school district, there are children that I am aware of who are in resource room as well, who have 504 plans. Frankly, it is my belief that several of these children would qualify for an iep, but the parents opted to have a 504 plan instead (I do not know why in some cases, in others it is bcs they did not want to put their child through the school’s testing, and the services they receive are probably the same as if they had an iep. In other cases I believe it is more pallatable to the parent).
In response to Lil, that is the question: Is this discriminatory? Susan apparently thinks so, and frankly I do too, but would the courts think so? Apparently the district has been educating this way for years and has yet to be corrected? Do other schools do this, I would guess that ours is not the only one. How and when are services rendered in other high schools?

Please read my last post on 10/12, at 20:52 just above Susan Long’s post on 10/12 at 17:59. Thanks.

Lucy, there is apparently something I do not understand then. I thought the purpose of a 504 was to get accommodations when a child was NOT in need of special education services. If a child is needs special education, they have an IEP and get accommodation there, and they would NOT have a 504 plan as well. I think if a school district is serving 504 kids in a resource room, they are definitely going against the intent of the law. I guess they justify it as regular ed. tutoring or something.

All I can say is that every single class in a high school cannot be offered in every degree of restrictiveness: as in, there cannot be a resource room English 9, inclusion (reg and spec ed teachers) English 9, and inclusion English 9 honors (2 teachers)…then multiply that by every single high school course!!! Impossible. There is no high school that offers this. There is no perfect special ed. model in public education. There cannot be two teachers in every class…the public would never agree to the monumental tax increases that would be required.

Is it discriminatory? Well, I’m not sure what I think about that. But the one thing I did not understand from your posts above is why the child has to lose 2 elcetive periods. Why can’t a child have resource one period and an elective one period? This is where I think something is fishy.

Janis

I am very sorry Lucy, but a child is not covered both by an IEP and a 504 plan, it is one or the other. I have been involved in special education for the past 18 years and it has never been any other way. Janis is right, a 504 plan is for a child who may need some accommodations but is in regular education classes. If it were the case that sped kids were covered by both, I would know about it because they would be on my case load. Also, as Janis said, inclusion can’t be everywhere. Special education is bankrupting our system as it is, let alone have enough special ed teachers in all the different kids of classes, basic, AP and academic for all of the subjects. The decision that the student be in a basic skills class, thereby taking up one elective, is that of the IEP committee. In high school, each student has at least 2 electives in ninth and tenth grade but in 11th and 12th grade it can be different. This depends on whether the student is going to vo. tech school or opting for early outs.

Remember and something that we don’t remember is special education was set up for the severely disabled, not as many students that we have now. This is the reason for the ‘Let no child behind’ initiative as well as the restructuring of IDEA that is going on in congress this year. In my school, we have 1700 students and we have 21 special educators! That is way too many. I have students in my classes that are no more LD than I am. Also, it has now been decided that there will not be any flags put on the files of the kids that took the SATs with accommodations. There have been reports of parents trying to buy a private psychological report stating that the student is LD just so that they can get extended time and other accommodations for the SAT! We need to get back to the intent of special education, and that was for the students that really need the services, not those that just have a subject that isn’t a strong area. I can honestly say that if I were in school today, I would have qualified for special education services in the area of comprehension and math. I was just not good at math and I learned study skills in college. Sorry about the soap box but there are too many kids in sped and the label is very heavy as we all know.

Janis, yes they do get one elective if they have an iep, and they lose one elective. The regular ed students have access and get credit for 2 electives. I totally understand what you are talking about regarding the tax bill. I do not dispute the underfunding. I just do not know that it is legal. That does mean access and fape for some, but not for all ld students . Tax $ is going to resource room, and tax $ is going to inclusion in LRE for some students, and not for others. Tax $ is also going into electives that sp ed students cannot access. How does one choose to teach in the inclusion model for English 9, but not Spanish 1? How do they decide to team teach pre-algebra but not geometry, for example? And oh well, honors or AP is naturally out of the realm of team teaching at all, in any subject? The legal answer I believe is that it is iep driven, what the child needs for fape-this is not supposed to be a $ issue, yet as you point out, it is. The school writes pull out resource room as a placement within the iep(offering this as the sole option, which in itself I do not think is legal-anybody know?), therefore making a student delete an elective, rather than teaching in an inclusion model where necessary for the student to receive fape. Janis, I understand the school’s difficulties, they do not have a enough sp ed to cover all of the reg ed classes offered where someone with an iep can be included in the LRE. So is pull out resource primarily how students with lds get educated in high school? Are they required to then give up a reg ed class to get sp ed servicesin a segregated class? Do some schools offer 1:1 peer tutoring to high school students with lds, as some of the colleges do, or is this another problem bcs the professionals in the school should theoretically be the ones doing the teaching, since the school gets extra $ to educate a child with an iep, and the school is responsible to provide that free appropriate education? Any insight, opinions, and answers to how other high schools handle the problem is appreciated.

Okay, good. I wasn’t sure about the electives from an earlier post.

“The school writes pull out resource room as a placement within the
iep(offering this as the sole option, which in itself I do not think is
legal-anybody know?), therefore making a student delete an elective, rather
than teaching in an inclusion model where necessary for the student to
receive fape.”

They cannot “offer” anything as the sole option. Absolutely not. You are a member of that team and you have every right to express that your child is not benefiting from resource and you want all regular classes with accommodations or an inclusion teacher. While they can’t necessarily give you exactly what you want, they certainly have to be open to more than one option for a particular child.

My personal feeling is that if an LD child can handle honors or AP classes, then he has probably been remediated fairly well and all that would be needed would be some accommodations.

How do they decide in which classes to place a special ed. inclusion teacher? Well, when I worked at the high school, the only classes that had an inclusion teacher were certain English and math classes (ones required for graduation). There were 3 LD resource/inclusion teachers, and they could each teach 6 classes per year. As you can see, that means a total of 18 classes either taught in the resource room or in inclusion classes. That does not even come close to covering all the basics required for graduation. If funding were doubled (which is not likely), then possibly more of the English and math would be covered by inclusion plus some science or history. I doubt seriously that languages and other electives will ever have more than accommodations provided.

So to answer one of your additional questions, most of our LD kids are in regular classes with accommodations, and the lower functioning ones (lower academic skills) may have math, English, or US History in the resource room and/or an inclusion class. The higher functioning kids will be in all regular classes with accommodations, or they might have an inclusion English or math class.

Janis

The rights of an individual w/a disability are covered under 504 whether or not a plan is written. You can go a long ways with this without legal counsel. If the student has an IEP, the accommodations and modifications therein are assumed to cover the rights of that student under the Section 504 portion of the law.

With regard to your question about how others schools do it, my school district would never dream of a policy like this one. There are many poor policies in school districts that have never been challenged. Line up your ducks and start asking some polite questions.

Let’s have Socks look in. She gives excellent advice. Osinski is another that gives sound information.

My understanding (and I’ve spent quite a bit of time lately studying 504 and IEP law, is that when a child is on an IEP they are automatically covered by the 504.

I have a friend right now who recently told a teacher, do you realize if you do this, you are violating my son’s civil rights?” 504 carries a lot more weight than most people realize. WHen she contacted the Fla. DOE, they immediately contacted our local school district to schedule a mediation - in about 4 hours time. It was amazing.

You may want to consider contacting your DOE b4 filing a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights. Atlanta’s OCV told my friend just last week that it is about 145 to get your complaint filed and noticed. She was able to accomplish great things by contacting the FDOE 504 specialist. In fact, the school board called her back the next day offering to reimburse her for all the money she has spent since school began.

If you check out Wrightslaw.com and look up 504 it says IEP students are covered by both.

BTW, Pete Wrights is coming to Jax, FL next year!

nt

Okay, since I was totally confused about this thread, I did a search for a 504 plan on the web. I went to two sites, one was about accommodations that would be covered by both the IEP and a 504. The other site gave me definitions, “A 504 plan can be used to help students who have a disability who may not qualify for sped services”. You can’t have it both ways. I think that what everyone is talking about is that accommodations are covered under both situations and they may be the same.

Janis, thanks for your response. You have answerered some of my questions. I think the school you were in operated similarly to the way our high school does.

Leah, I think this is an access issue, which is a 504 issue.

Lucy,
You keep saying the answer to your question, free and APPROPRIATE education. I believe, that you first have to look at the justification for services side of the IEP. What deficiency did the student have that qualified for sped services? If the deficiency is in reading, depending on their reading level, the core classes are covered in both teamed and self-contained classes. If your son has been justified for services due to a math deficiency, he should be in regular ed classes except for those that have a lot of math, obviously math classes and science. When a student has reached high school, they should have been remediated either by the school or the parent in the area of the deficiency so that he would need less and less accommodations. By the term of the word, elective, these are not covered by the term appropriate. If a child needs an inclusion class in an elective, perhaps he shouldn’t take that one. These courses are supposed to give the student a choice of subjects where their interests lie and where they feel confident to go it alone. These courses are beyond the term appropriate. Also, all special ed students don’t have to take a basic skills class and if they do take it, they receive a credit. In our school, there is a curriculum for the basic skills classes, they aren’t study halls. We have block scheduling of 96 minutes and they receive 50 minutes of instruction in basic skills and the rest of the period is targeted for the accommodations of reading the tests, extra time on projects and tests. This isn’t time to do homework, unless the student is having problems with understanding what he is to do, and then clarifying directions and help is given.

Nowhere in the regulations of sped is there a statement that specific classes should be teamed, such as basic, academic or AP. All we have to have is a continuum of services. In other words, offer a teamed class and a self-contained class where needed. We try to offer a class where most kids are enrolled. I mean, this year, we offer a teamed class in academic English in 10, 11 and 12th grade. I brought the remedial programs for writing for the self-contained classes and all of us who teach self-contained English used them so most of the kids were remediated enough to go into academic English. By the way, they all are doing well. Our philosophy was that those regular ed students that are in the academic classes aren’t the trouble makers (they are typically in basic classes) so that our kids would have a quiet classroom to learn. It has worked out well. We have a teamed class in geometry and algebra but not all schools do. We offer one because our kids have to pass algebra and geometry to receive a standard diploma as well as they have to pass the state test. I think the logic is that you should have inclusion classes in all of the areas that the student needs to graduate from high school, this doesn’t include SPECIFIC electives.

A sped student can choose any elective but these are not offered in inclusion settings. When my daughter was in school, LRE wasn’t as important as it is now and she was in mainstreaming with a resourse room. They didn’t offer anything else. The emphasis and clarification of the law has changed whether for the good or not, to inclusion. The offering of just a resourse room and no inclusion wouldn’t be legal in this legal climate but this doesn’t mean that you have to provide inclusion and self-contained for all classes particularly electives. You also won’t find PE and health teamed either but accommodations are provided and classes in adapted physical education are provided. There is an option.

Concerning 1:1 peer tutoring, this is open to all students not just ones with IEPs. Also, I don’t know of one teacher that won’t help a student after or before school if possible. Again, I must say that the school must provide a free and appropriate education, not more than that.

You have not said, why is your son/daughter in sped? What are his/her deficiencies?

I was just on Wrights Law’s website, I highly recommend that you go to that website and search for ‘504’ and look at all of the stuff on it. I think most of your questions will be answered.

I think the issue is not which plan this child is under, but what rights are being violated. 504 deals with rights under persons with disabilities law which is different and not neccessarily less than the laws created by IDEA.

This was very informative.

From a practical standpoint I would wonder if this child’s needs could not be met with accomodations in whatever class they take. I guess that depends on what the deficit is.

Accomodations should not require a second sped teacher be present in the room for every class. If I were in this situation, I would do the remediation on my own time and let the child take the electives they want.

My experience with remediation through the schools has been that they are not that effective in actually addressing the child’s specific issues. I have seen sped to be not much more than a dumping ground where children are placed and given a dumbed down curriculum. It is not a place where teachers address specific deficits.

You are absolutely correct! An inclusion class is a class which usually concerns directly the student’s disability. Accommodations are given by the regular ed teacher in all of the other classes, by law. Routinely, teamed classes as well as self-contained are in English, Social Studies, Science and Math. This is why teamed classes aren’t in electives and PE. During the first and second week of school, we send out all of the accommodations for each student to all of his teachers. We also send out progress reports to all of the teachers before interims and end of the grading period. We also talk to teachers of our students on our caseload during the year in classes where our students are having difficulties. As a matter of fact, I just met with one World History teacher to give her pointers on how to improve comprehension in her classes, not just for the sped students but for all of her students. What we think is a problem just for the sped kids, actually is a problem for most kids, the only difference is ours have an IEP.

I agree with what you write, but this is not “a policy” . It is, however, how I have seen and experienced education conducted in this institution.

THe help has to come some time… are you trying to get a sped teacher into a regular ed class so that resource period isn’t needed?

Legally you’d be in a grey area — it’s the scheduling problem that’s denying access to the electives, not the disability. (I’m just trying to be the opposing lawyer here.) Technically, a student taking a foreign language is therefore “excluded” from taking two other electives and has to settle for one — but that’s not discrimination, that’s a choice. If what a student needs is resource room, then it has to come at some time. Cutting back on an elective would probably *not* be considered denying a child an “appropriate” education — a lawyer would argue that getting both electives is a good thing, but that it is fully possible to get an “appropriate” education with one elective per year. If, on the other hand, the specific electives needed were specifically appropriate to meet that kid’s need you’d have a good argument there — but hte general “should have access to two electives” I don’t think would fly. (Just my non-lawyer opinion though… and no, I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing.)

If an accommodation (or presence of a sped teacher or aide) in that regular classroom would render pulling out to the resource room unnecessary, then that would be a less restrictive environment and worth arguing for.

This is what we are already seeing at the middle school level with my NLD son. He needs academic support, and the times for academic support are during the “unified arts” block. No one is exempted from Spanish unless they have been in French Immersion since kindergarten, or have a really severe language based LD. No one is exempted from “health”, which also includes phys ed. That means that means that my son has no choice but to give up music, art and “tech ed” (what we used to call shop) so that he can have academic support.

I don’t know what the answer to this is. There is truly not enough time in the schedule for both. For now, we have appeased him by signing him up for classes at Home Depo with his Dad on Saturdays. We’ve also told him he can join the jr. bell choir at our church in place of the music he would otherwise get in school.

Karen

My younger son has a multiple dx of ADHD/Inattentive, Generalized Anxiety Disorder and LD/NOS. Our school has agreed to give him pull-out for reading fluency 4 times a week, and an aide in the general ed classroom during written language. Yet they are refusing to even give him an IEP, saying that all these services are available to any child who needs them through general ed.

I’m not happy about this because I don’t think that this will be possible to enforce. But I don’t think we can do much about it but document everything until they slip up.

I think the idea is right… all these things SHOULD be available to any child who needs them. But we all know that it doesn’t really work this way. If it did, we wouldn’t have had to go the route of outside testing to figure out what was going on with our son.

Karen

Karen,

The only thing I would say is, thank goodness schools AREN’T allowed to make ADHD and Anxiety disorder diagnoses! I’d much rather an appropriate medical professional do so. You didn’t say what grade your son is in, but how wonderful that this school has interventions on place to help children BEFORE they would probably qualify LD! It is entirely correct to try the regular ed. interventions first as that is the least restrictive environment. I have my child labeled speech/language impaired, and with some outside interventions, I hope she never has to carry a LD label. I hope she’ll never be that far behind!

I don’t know who gave you a diagnosis of LD/NOS, (and I am assuming that NOS means “not otherwise specified”), but there is no such category in federal law to my knowledge. There must be a discrepancy between ability (IQ) and achievement in some specific area: reading, writing, math, listening comp., oral expression, etc.

Janis

Karen has chosen one of two possible options. She has chosen to supplement the electives outside of school so her child can have special ed. at school. Others may choose for their child to be in regular class all day and have the tutoring outside of school. I would decide this based on the quality of the special ed. program. If they are not using correct, research based materials to remediate, then I’d skip the school services and get good tutoring outside. If the school, by a miracle (like if you are at Shay’s high school!), is offering quality remediation specific to a child’s deficits, then do the resource at school and take music and art, etc. privately.

Janis

In my sons school there is only 6 periods for classes. The students generally take 4 academic classes, then PE/Health and have room for only 1 elective. My sons solution to his dilema (need a resource room but still want to take band) was to take summer school. This was his choice. He had the choice of take resource and drop band or do PE/health over the summer and get to have both resource and band during the school year. It turned out to be a good choice for him he has really needed the resource room. I agree that the time has to come from somewhere and a choice needs to be made. He is planning on taking classes over the summer again this year so he can again keep both band and resource. Doing things this way is allowing him to take the college core classes and receive the support he needs. This year he is taking Algebra 1A, Social Issues/Citizenship, Intergrated science, and Aprecitation of Lit/Lang. He don’t think he could of done well in health if he had to take that instead of band. He took health over the summer and got a B. Sometimes the student needs to make choices the school can only do so much in the time they have.

Sue, I understand what you are saying. I just wonder if pull-out resource room were given after school if there wouldn’t be an uproar, denying a child access to rest, or socialization, or an extra-curricular activity (especially the sports, since sports are big here). I know there would be an arguement from parents, and rightly so.To me, the same access issue is at hand if a child cannot get into a drama class, choir, accounting I, AP history, Russian, or whatever else. Now how to schedule resource: well where it is necessary for the child it should occur in the reg. ed class, and for any pull out time, that is an iep team issue that should be discussed rather than dictated. The whole issue of pull out vs. inclusion should be an iep driven issue,rather than a $ issue. I do agree what you write about appropriate education-but this is, I think, an access issue, which is a 504 issue, rather than a fape issue. That is my guess, and I believe I am thinking along the same wavelength as Susan Long on this. Just wanted to discuss and learn what happens in other places of learning and get some ideas about how this can be dealt with.

Good for your son. I wish him lots of luck. You are fortunate that you have summer school. We do not have that opportunity, but we do have the 2 elective slots that you unfortunately do not have.

>> I don’t know who gave you a diagnosis of LD/NOS, (and I am assuming that NOS means “not otherwise specified”), but there is no such category in federal law to my knowledge. <<

The school didn’t give him the dx. They wouldn’t even test him. (I know we could have insisted, but with their resistance, I wasn’t confident we’d get a meaningful evaluation… we’ve been down this path before) We had a private neuropsych eval done by the person who has worked with us with our old NLD son for several years. He has also been under the care of a therapist and child psychiatrist for anxiety and depression for quite some time.

>> There must be a discrepancy between ability (IQ) and achievement in some specific area: reading, writing, math, listening comp., oral expression, etc. <<

Actually IDEA specifically states that a discrepancy formula alone cannot be used to qualify a child for Special Education. And SLD isn’t the only qualification for SPED either. If it were that easy, we would have no problem at all. My son has quite a dramatic discrepancy between IQ and performance. The problem is that his IQ is very high, so even with this discrepancy he is performing on grade level. (though just barely) His WISC had subtest scatter from the 98th %ile to the 2nd %ile.

If he were performing “just barely on grade level” and happy, I would not be pushing for an IEP, nor would I have even requested testing, let alone paid $1600 for private testing. But he’s performing “just barely on grade level” and was an emotional basket case all through 3rd grade. (not the teacher’s fault, she truly tried to accomodate him) It was a real surprise to us to find out how high his IQ actually is.

He is already on anti-anxiety meds, and the school psychologist is pushing for him to be put on meds for the ADHD piece. The classroom teacher requested an aide because she can’t keep him on task and organized during written language work and teacher the rest of the class as well. The psychiatrist is reluctant to give a kid with major anxiety issues stimulant meds. (which are likely to increase anxiety) I agree.

>> how wonderful that this school has interventions on place to help children BEFORE they would probably qualify LD! It is entirely correct to try the regular ed. interventions first as that is the least restrictive environment. <<

Well, of course LRE doesn’t have anything directly to do with qualification for SPED. The school would still be required to meet his needs in the LRE if he were on an IEP. The problem is that there is no cohesive plan to follow him from grade to grade, meaning the wheel will need to be reinvented year by year without him on an ed plan.

Having an older special needs kid (NLD’er in 6th grade) I have seen how critical an IEP is once they start changing classes. If we didn’t have my older son’s SPED teacher to serve as the communication link between my son, us as parents and the regular ed teachers, it would be chaos.

This child, although he has a much higher IQ, has much more severe processing speed and executive function issues than the older one. He also doesn’t have the advantage of good reading skills that the older one has. They have remediated his decoding problems well, but his fluency is very poor, which leads to problems in comprehension as well. He’s not even close to the “reading to learn” level expected of 4th graders. Every reading assignment is a garganutan task.

And while it sounds very noble that the school is offering all this help without an IEP to enforce compliance, the fact of the matter is that now, a full 3 weeks after they agreed to give him pull out reading 4 days a week, an aide in the classroom for written language, a social skills lunch bunch and work with the school psychologist for anxiety. (their idea to “reinforce” what’s being done in private therapy) not ONE of these interventions has actually been put into place.

Karen

I think it also depends on what your child’s problems are. Obviously, a reading issue really needs to be directly remediated, and probably outside the general ed classroom. My older son, (the one we’re talking about here) has NLD. That’s not going away with any sort of remediation available presently. He can be taught to compensate to some extent, but he will ALWAYS be NLD.

He will ALWAYS take longer to process new material, and he will ALWAYS need more time than the average person to adjust to novelty. Since school, by design, is on-going novelty, tutoring outside of school is not particularly useful. He needs someone right there, in the general ed classroom, to help him when something is confusing so that he can move on and not get “stuck”. During Academic Support periods, his SPED teacher can go over specific concepts he had trouble with in the classroom, or can help with direct teaching of the writing process on current school work.

With those limitations kept in mind, he’s a smart kid, with an exceptional memory, and he can do very well in the general education classroom. Kids like this are “made” for the inclusion model of special ed.

Karen

That’s a great alternative that I’ll keep in mind as my son goes up through the grades!

Karen

Karen,

Well, I now understand a lot more about this situation. I really feel that if you are concerned about an IEP for upper grades, go ahead and make the school test now. It sounds like he’d have a discrepancy to qualify LD. Or you might could go with Other Health Impaired.

I just want to add that our oldest child, a son, also has anxiety disorder and we have been through a lot with him. If your son remains unhappy at school, I would strongly urge removing him. Ours found the wrong peer group and we are still suffering the consequences of having him in public high school. They are super high risk for self-medicating.

Hope you can find what will work best for your boys. Take care.

Janis

As I said, the testing has been done, and there is plenty of discrepancy. There would be nothing to gain by having the school test him. They are not refuting the findings of our neuropsychologist.

Obviously we’ll keep a close eye on things as he goes up through the grades. But unless we got an outside placement through the school, there really is no way we could afford a private school with the sort of program that would work for him. We might be able to swing a parochial school, but we’re not Catholic, and from what I’ve heard, parochial schools are not particularly good at meeting the needs of kids who learn outside the lines. We could not possibly afford the private schools that cater to the needs of kids with LD, ADHD and/or emotional problems.

So for now, we need to manage the system as best we can.

Karen

I was also thinking of homeschooling as an option. I’ll homeschool my daughter the minute the school tries to fit her in a box she won’t fit. I will not allow her to be miserable at school. (I know single parents can’t very well do this.)

I will tell you that I know of parochial schools that do have LD teachers unlike most private schools.

Janis

The LD in Depth section under Legal/Legislative has a review of IDEA and 504; no law guarantees team teaching for EVERY subject that a student with special needs would like to take. High School is full of trade-offs for the best of students, juggling electives, sports, music and requirements for graduation…and there are courses that are discriminatory by design, AP and Honors courses have prerequirements that all those students must meet. If your daughter requires accomodations that include a special teacher in the class, she may not be eligible for the rapid, independent pace of AP courses. And yes, if you and she are choosing resource room instruction,there are only so many periods in the day and something has to go. Ask around, there are lots of nonspecial ed. students being closed out of courses in high school because they are in band, chorus or other special circumstances. It is a trade off.

Although you say that an IEP (or IDEA services) and Section 504 Accommodations are separate and two different things, you are correct and partially incorrect. All children who receive special education services under IDEA are also covered under the Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, which is anti-discrimination legislation. So, if you are a special educator, you should know that ALL of your students are protected under Section 504 and must have equal access to the same educational opportunities as those students without disabilities.

And FYI - there are many students out there who have disabilities and receive Section 504 accommodations in school because their disabilities affect a major life function; however their disabilities may not be severe enough or educationally impacting enough to warrant SPED services.

Again, I must state that IDEA and Section 504 ARE indeed connected. One cannot be an IEP student withouth receiving 504 accommodations. In addition, in some states, students with 504’s CAN and DO receive assistance in resource classrooms as long as there is room - in other words, if there is a student with an IEP who needs to be in a resource room and there is only room for one more student, the student with the IEP would warrant that slot before the student with the 504 plan could. However, if the resource classroom is below the state appointed numbers for student-teacher ratio, then that student may receive assistance in a resource classroom with only a 504 plan.

I think that one must realize that all of us who use LD on-line do not come from the same states and therefore the laws are different. For example, it is NOT going against “the intent of the law” for a child with a 504 plan to be served in a resource room in some states.

A child with an IEP is covered under 504 and therefore receives modifications and accommodations that come along with the IEP/504. However, YES, there are students who receive only 504 services. There are NO students that only receive IEP services - 504 always comes along with an IEP. 504 accommodations are put in place to ensure that the students with disabilities have equal access to the same activities, instruction, etc. as those students without disabilities.

Yes, as you yourself stated in an earlier post, it would be helpful for some of us to know what we are talking about before posting a message.

Parochial schools may have LD teachers but they are not obligated and/or required to follow any IEP’s or try and teacher students who do not “fit inside the box” as you keep referring to them as because most parochial schools do not receive any state funding (separation of church/state) and therefore do not have to provide SPED services.

My apologies to you, Shay, because you obviously are mistaken. Children who have IEP’s under IDEA ARE and do in fact receive 504 accommodations - you CAN and students DO receive both. It would be nice for those of us who give other parents information to give out the correct information so that parents can be informed correctly. If you have been in special education for 18 years, you most certainly have come across students who have received both - or your school system has been doing a great disservice to their children with disabilities.

Go to www.reedmartin.com. he has EXTENSIVE 504/ADA iformation. If FAPE is denied due to her disability then yes, it is a violation.

Every child who has an IEP is covered under IDEA, 504 and ADA.

Have you considered asking for an extended school day to fit in all the classes? Perfectly legal, altho they will balk at it, I am sure.

That is rare in our area and i live in a major city. Parochial schools here invite kids to leave as soon as they find out they don’t fit the box. Many claim to have special ed but it ususaly just a Hooked on Phonics set. Special ed is really “more of the same in a smaller group”. None that I know of have hired true LD tutors.

If you read my post again, I said a 504 PLAN. I don’t have one student that is both on an IEP and a formal 504 plan. I also have never had a student that is on a 504 plan in a special education resourse room. Of course, some kids who are on a 504 Plan, do ultimately end up with an IEP, but they don’t have both. Of course a child with an IEP is covered under section 504 put doesn’t have a 504 plan but an IEP. I don’t give incorrect advice. Perhaps you should reread my post again.

This is kind of what I’d heard about the parochial schools in our area. That they were fine for the average learner, but there wasn’t much done for those toward the outsides of the bell curve. I also know that parochial classes in this area tend to be even larger than in the public schools. Classes of 30 kids and one teacher are not at all uncommon, where our public schools run about 22-24 kids, and often have an aide as well if there are kids with special needs in the class. My older (NLD) son’s class has 24 kids, the general ed teacher, a full time aide and a SPED teacher in the class for all academics.

Karen

Excuse me, Dutch. My reference to “knowing what we are talking about” was a reference to the first post and needing more details in order to give an answer. She said her child was “classified” and we did not know “what” classification she meant. So, It might be nice if you carefully read the posts before giving sarcastic answers.

I do not doubt that 504 laws cover all disabilites, however, in my state school system, we use an IEP (Individualized Educational PLAN) OR a 504 PLAN for a particular student. That is what we were referring to and I would have assumed that was clear from some of our posts. I have never heard of a student with a IEP AND 504 plan. The accommodations on a IEP are IEP accommodations. “504 accommodaions” are not named as such on a IEP.

The bottom line is the same, even gifted kids with no disabilities can’t always schedule all the classes they want, so it is doubtful that a parent could claim and win a discrimination suit in this case.

Janis