Natural Remedies

Happy Days, I understand your need to avoid medications but I personally view “natural” suppliments and herbs to be medication. Often times there is not research behind a product to determine the benefit or potential harm. Opium and marajuana are extreme examples of “natural” substances that are not good for the human body. Watch out for the snake-oil salesmen.

We only use a multivit. but I’m sure someone will write in with other suggestions. I know of a small study that found that kids with ADHD are more-likely to be Vit A deficient, a condition thought to be rare but my skinny kid with ADHD was Vit A deficient for reasons still unknown. She is real thin but putting on weight since school let out. She is not medicated. We have a very healthy diet but she doesn’t sit down long enough to eat well so I feel safer with the multivit. suppliment. I can’t say it has made any difference in her ADHD though.

I hadn’t considered or even realized they weren’t tested on kids! How is one to know if it’s dangerous or not? Why do we have the FDA? How can this stuff be allowed to be marketed to kids? You would think a study would boost their sales…that is…unless it doesn’t work! Hmmmmm. Is there anything natural that has been tested?

[quote=”Happy days”] Is there anything natural that has been tested?[/quote]

Happy Days,

Some studies have showed potential good effects from supplementing essential fatty acids. The research on EFA supplementation is not conclusive and some of it is not well-controlled or relies on a sample size that is too small. Nonetheless, there is some evidence that EFAs may help some kids with ADHD. I know there are parents on this board who have used them and perceive a positive response. We tried an EFA supplement called Efalex for our son, but it had no effect on his ADHD that we could discern. Do check with your pediatrician before you give any kind of supplement. All natural does not mean that a substance is safe. Even supplements that are generally considered safe may be harmful to individuals with specific conditions.

Andrea

Try qualtiy fish oil, but also try DL-phenylalanine, and L-Tyrosine. Avoid food dyes and get lots of exercise!

No question that Omega Fatty acids are important. Note that the study was abruptly ended in the story below. What this correlates to is profits of the mental health and counseling industry and the pharmecutical industries. I beleive is that ADHD/ADD is correctable by nutrition and what I find disturbing is that the Amino acids “Tryptophan and the omega3 acids are missing in the diet as a result of pharmecutical and mental health profits. The FDA is run by the pharmecutical industries and to support that claim check the past FDA members and the positions they hold today with the pharmecutical industries.
HumanSpirit
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Omega 3 Fatty Acids

Mood-Boosting Fat: Good for Head and Heart?
John Casey, Medical Writer

The link between omega-3 fatty acids and cardiovascular health is well documented. Less well known, however, but perhaps equally as important, is new research showing that persons with bipolar disorder, depression, even schizophrenia, may see significant improvements in symptoms with increased omega-3 consumption.

“The research work is a long way from complete,”
says Dr. Joseph R. Hibbeln, chief of the outpatient
clinic at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and
Alcoholism at the National Institutes of Health, who has done extensive research on omega-3 and mood disorders.
“And if someone is severely depressed or has acute
psychiatric problems, that person should not change
treatment, but that being said, what we are finding out about omega-3 and the treatment of mood disorders is really astonishing.”

Surprisingly Positive Outcomes
Dr. Andrew Stoll, director of psychopharmacology at
Mclean Hospital and an assistant professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, recently led a two-center trial on bipolar disorder and increased omega-3 consumption at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston and Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.
“The study was supposed to be 9 months long,”
says Dr. Stoll. “But the supply of the omega-3
compound we were using was suddenly and unexpectedly
suspended just after we completed the first phase of the investigation. By then, we had enough data to see that the placebo patients were doing really horribly, and since we were going to run out of our supply of omega-3 anyway, we decided to stop the study early and give all the subjects the remaining supply.”

The 4-month, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial
compared omega-3 fatty acids to placebo, in addition to the subjects’ usual treatment, in 30 patients with
bipolar disorder. A Kaplan-Meier survival analysis for
the subjects found that the omega-3 group had a
significantly longer period of remission than the placebo group. In his findings, Dr. Stoll wrote that “fatty acids may inhibit neuronal signal transduction pathways in a manner similar to that of lithium carbonate and valporate, two effective treatments for bipolar disorder.” In a larger study of 240 subjects with manic depression at the Stanley Foundation in Bethesda, Maryland, researchers are attempting to replicate Dr. Stoll and colleagues’ findings

How It Helps Stabilize Mood
Although the exact mechanism by which omega-3 stabilizes mood is unclear, researchers suspect that the compound works by increasing the amounts of essential fatty acids available in the synaptic membranes of the brain. When the synapses do not have enough docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), an important component of some omega-3s, levels of a key brain transmitter, serotonin, appear to be affected.
“We know that patients with low concentrations of
serotonin are associated with a greatly increased risk of depression and suicide,” says Dr. Jerry Cott, a
psychopharmacologist at the National Institutes of
Health, who recently completed a review of omega-3
research on mood disorders. “Omega-3 appears to play
an absolutely crucial role in maintaining serotonin
levels and mood stabilization.”

Altered Diet, More Mood Disorder
“Archaeological dietary studies show that when we
evolved as human beings, we had diets that were much
higher in DHA-rich omega-3,” says Dr. Hibbeln.
“We ate more fish and game meat, and we used to eat
organ meats and brains. In 100 years, we’ve eliminated a lot of these sources of omega-3 from our diets, and
studies of the prevalence of depression show that it has increased about 100-fold over the same time period,” says Dr. Hibbeln. Other, nonanimal sources of omega-3 include flax seed, pumpkin seed, and walnuts. Most omega-3 supplements are derived from several species of cold-water fish.
“Today, in our industrialized society, we get most of
our fats from vegetable sources, such as corn and
safflower,” says Dr. Cott. “We eat oils rich in
trans-fatty acids that are taken up more quickly than
omega-3 and block omega-3 absorption. So not only do we eat less omega-3 in general, but the fats that we do eat tend to block it from getting to where we need it.”

Although some biochemists have cast doubt on the efficacy of flax seed as a source of DHA-rich omega-3, studies show it has the same beneficial properties, without the fishy aftertaste of some fish-oil pills. “While flax seed is an omega-3, it has an 18-carbon chain, as opposed to the 20-carbon chain of DHA-containing omega-3 fish oils,” says Dr. Hibbeln. “From a biochemistry standpoint, you’d think that flax seed would be an inefficient source of omega-3.” But in studies with bipolar patients, Dr. Cott says, flax-seed oil appears to have an even faster effect than fish oil on mood stabilization. Some patients are reporting anxiety reduction within a half an hour of taking it,” he says. “It’s not supposed to be possible, but that’s what we’re seeing.”

Although Dr. Stoll’s omega-3 small study of 30 bipolar
patients is the only such US study so far to have had its findings published in a peer-reviewed journal, several larger-scale studies are now underway here and in England to try to replicate Dr. Stoll’s findings.

Where the Research Is Headed
More studies are going forward in several areas right
now. In Sheffield, England, Dr. Malcolm Peete is
directing a large-scale study looking at omega-3’s
ability to help control symptoms of schizophrenia.
Here in the United States, Dr. Stoll and Dr. Lauren
Marangell of Baylor University have two omega-3 studies in the works. “We got funding from that National Institutes of Health to do a larger follow-up study with 120 bipolar patients across a full year,” says Dr. Stoll. “In the pilot study, we had only 30 patients, and they were all in different mood states and on varying medication or no medication. This study will be more controlled by having everyone in the same mood state and all on the same medications.” Dr. Stoll also is conducting a study on omega-3 at Harvard University of 80 patients with regular, or unipolar, depression, who are not currently in treatment.

All of these findings are proving surprising, even to
researchers in the field. “If these preliminary
findings are replicated, then this is a remarkable
discovery,” says Dr. Cott. “We’re seeing an
efficacy with omega-3 that is equal to or better than
current medications”

Our natural remedy was to address the underlying deficits that made paying attention difficult.

My son had a visual motor deficit and sensory integration issues that looked a lot like adhd. We saw a very big improvement with interactive metronome www.interactivemetronome.com and another big jump with vision therapy.

I also have found that for him a high protein diet and lots of exercise helps.

We don’t use meds.

[quote=”Longwinded”]No question that Omega Fatty acids are important. Note that the study was abruptly ended in the story below. What this correlates to is profits of the mental health and counseling industry and the pharmecutical industries. I beleive is that ADHD/ADD is correctable by nutrition and what I find disturbing is that the Amino acids “Tryptophan and the omega3 acids are missing in the diet as a result of pharmecutical and mental health profits. The FDA is run by the pharmecutical industries and to support that claim check the past FDA members and the positions they hold today with the pharmecutical industries.
[/quote]

I’ve posted this link on how to be wise consumer and parent, but I think it is important to do so again, in light of the conspiracy theory Longwinded espouses. The excerpt I’m posting can be found at the end of an article on the Schwab Learning site about evaluating alternative treatments.

Andrea

http://www.schwablearning.org/articles.asp?r=404

How Can A Parent Be A Wise Consumer?

If you are the parent of a child with AD/HD you know how
difficult your job an be. You want to obtain the very best
treatment for your child. In the spirit of “how can it hurt to try”
you might be tempted to throw caution to the wind when you
hear about a new treatment that promises to help.

Promises are not enough. You also have the responsibility to
invest your family’s resources of time, money and energy
wisely. This means that as with any large purchase, you must
become an informed consumer.

In this paper we have provided general guidelines for evaluating
new treatments. Listed below are additional tips to help you
recognize treatments that are questionable.

Overstatement and exaggerated claims are red flags.
Be suspicious of any product or treatment that is
described as astonishing, miraculous or an amazing
breakthrough. Legitimate health professionals do not
use words like these. Nor do they boast of their
success in treating huge numbers of patients.

Be suspicious too of any treatment that claims to treat
a wide variety of ailments. Common sense tells us that
the more grandiose the claim the less likely it is that
there is any real merit behind it.

Do not rely on testimonials from people who say they
have been helped by the product or the treatment.
Enthusiasm is not a substitute for evidence and
legitimate health professionals do not solicit
testimonials from their patients.

Be skeptical about claims that a treatment is being
suppressed or unfairly attacked by the medical
establishment. Legitimate health professionals eagerly
welcome new knowledge and better methods of
treatment for their patients. They have no reason to
oppose promising new approaches.

Thanks for the sites. Good info on scams.

Chiropractors are a new scam sweeping the nation. They claim many obsurd things can be helped by sublaxation. They have recently been trying to cash in on the ADHD suffer. This is all bologny and in Canada we are ahead of America in putting an end to this. See Chirowatch.com before you go anywhere near these scam artists. The good chiros of the world are ashamed of these guys. They are an embarressment to the profession.

A study of actual stroke cases conducted by the Canadian Stroke Consortium and reported in the July 11, 2000, issue of the Canadian Medical Association Journal found that stroke resulting from neck manipulation occurred in 28% of cases of stroke caused by injury to neck (vertebral) arteries, causing as many as 200 strokes a year in Canada. On a per patient basis, as reported in the May 2001 issue of Stroke (a journal of the American Heart Association), the Canadian studies suggest that 1 in every 100,000 chiropractic patients under the age of 45 who receive neck manipulation will suffer a stroke — far more than the 1 in a million reported by RAND.

Hi, HappyDays!

I would be happy to let you know what we have done. We haven’t really done a lot in the physiological realm, except for making sure our boys got lots of sleep and ate a lot of healthy foods. We mostly engaged in some creative behavior management techniques that proved very effective over time, as well as seeking alternative educational options.

I would agree with the long post on being a consumer, except on one point: I think we need to be just as skeptical of “accepted” approaches making claims of “miraculous results” as we do of alternative approaches. Even the best treatments generally fail for 30% or more of the population, and that’s not even taking the placebo effect or medication side effects into account. As I have posted earlier, medical interventions for ADHD have not shown very positive results over the long haul, though the short-term gains can be swift and impressive in many cases. And medical professionals are just as susceptible to marketing and hype as any of the rest of us mere humans. I never take a medication I haven’t looked up in the PDR at the least!

In my family, we have always viewed our children’s “ADHD” personalities as a normal, if challenging, variation of human behavior. I know not everyone agrees with this philosophy, but it has worked for us. We chose to build on the strengths that existed, and to create behavior programs and teaching tools to address the challenges. It took many years, as opposed to the quick results obtained with medication in some cases, but the long-term results have been excellent. And when we had a second “ADHD” child, we had already learned so much that we could apply right away, that we got to a really good point with him much earlier in his life (age 6 instead of 12!) I would be happy to share strategies, though it is helpful to have some specifics as to what you are dealing with.

I don’t believe there are any “magic bullets” out there, whether medication or other alternatives. Mostly, I think it is because the “ADHD” phenomenon is really a set of behaviors with a wide variety of causes, which can be addressed in a wide variety of different ways. Regardless of what approach we take, I think all of us have concluded that these kids are unique, and require us to be creative and unique in our approach to them. So be skeptical, set high standards, and do what works for you. Don’t believe anyone that tells you they have “the answer”. “The answer” doesn’t exist. But there are many strategies that can get us down the road toward the goals we want, once we realize that there is no outside force that can take away the joys and challenges of raising these special children.

Can you share some of your techniques? My youngest has always been a challenge—preferring negative attention to a calm environment. He is six now and still a handful. His impulsiveness and deliberately annoying behavior drive me crazy. He does things like poke the box of Tang on the counter with the knife!!!!

He does fine in school (structured parochial school) but hey, they never have knives on the counter!!

I really feel out of sync with him a lot.

Beth

Steve,

Thanks for the that post. I truely agree. It takes a very big effort to create an environment in which these kids can feel successful. My son does well with me because I have worked my tail off trying to understand what he needs to be successful. He is not the type of kid that can just go with the flow. It takes a lot of work.

He can’t stay up late, he can’t miss meals or load up on junk food, he has to have consistant, calm discipline with very specific and clear limitations. We have done tons of remediation.

I get a lot of complilements on his behaviour. I always reply. “Thanks, I deserve that. It hasn’t been an easy road.”
Sometimes when I leave him with my husband all heck breaks loose. He will let him eat whatever he wants, will rush him, yell. My hubby is pretty good overall but he just doesn’t understand the fine balance I maintain on a day to day basis. He sometimes thinks my son should just adapt. I think he is fooled because he seems so good most of the time he wonders why he isn’t that way for him. I guess I make it look easy.

Your words are very true. Meds or not this is parenting to the extreme and it isn’t a walk in the park.
I haven’t needed meds but that is our situation and every situation is different.

I just read an article posted on this site called ADHD Scams. Included iin the paragraph where some products that where considered Scams. One of them mentioned was Efalex. I found that quite odd as it does work and has worked in a much easier to take way that Ritalan with my son. When he was 12, he was assessed in a hospital setting and taken off Ritalan mainly because it caused such a rebound effect that had him off the wall. He was quite reluctant to go off Ritalan as he saw it at the time as his only hope. However he has been of 6 capsules daily of Efalex ever since (he is now 16) and does report that it helps him. I also notice an increase in disruptive behaviour when he goes off of it for more than one or two days. I am not sure why it works with some and not others but I know he is a very picky eater and leans to the meat sources for most of his calories. He never eats fish. I still am working on a good vegetabe supplement for him as that concerns me as we.. But in our estimation the Efalex works as well as the Ritalin did with less hassle. Thanks for listening.

[quote=”neva”]I just read an article posted on this site called ADHD Scams. Included iin the paragraph where some products that where considered Scams. One of them mentioned was Efalex. I found that quite odd as it does work quote]

Neva,

A few years ago the FDA issued a warning to the Efamol company because they were marketing Efalex as a treatment for ADHD without having sufficient research to back up their claims. That doesn’t necessarily mean that EFA treatment is a scam. As I’ve posted before, there are some studies that support the notion that it may work for some kids with ADHD symptoms. What is not yet know is exactly who it may work for and who will not be helped or whether it will be effective for most kids. The research into EFA supplementation is still incomplete, and some of it was not well done, which makes it hard for parents who need to make decisions about what to try for their children. If it is working for your child, that is great. Of course, anyone giving their child Efalex or any other supplement should check with their doctor first. There have been reports that evening primrose oil ( a key ingredient) lowers the seizure threshhold. That is important to know if your child has a seizure disorder. There may be other reasons why it would not be safe for a particular child, even if the ingredients are safe for most people, so it really pays to check with the doctor.

Andrea

In that ADHD scam post there is a claim that any treatment that states, “Results may vary.” may be a scam. The reality of ADHD is that all treatment options including meds hold the caveat that, “Results may vary.”

There isn’t anything that works for all.
That doesn’t mean that it is all a scam. It means we need better diagnostics to match treatment to diagnosis.

I have a bit of an issue with the current practice of using inattentive symptoms to diagnose ADHD. There are just way to many conditions that can seem like ADHD.

The medical world has a long way to go on this issue.

We avoided medications early on, because of my husband’s childhood experiences with them. When my son was dx’d, we were informed that he fell into the severe catagory, extreme impulsiveness/ hyperactivity. We were told that he was, in fact, a good candidate for medications, which we rebuffed at the onset. Well, after a supplement here and some “snakeoil” there, I can atest to the failure of not most them, but virtually all of them. Let’s face it, if there were a magical cure all to be found in nature, it would have eliminated generations of scientific study aimed at this one particular “problem.” And the major problem with ALL of these products is the inability to be control-tested, as is the problem with most natural remedies for most problems. We all “know” some work and others are pure bunk, but none can be really certiffied or has been, for that matter. Same with the elimination diets.

My conclusion is that living with this particular personality type, which is really all it is, takes a much broader approach than most want to devote to it. Emotionally, you’ve just got to learn to accept this little person for what they ABLE to do and give back. Medications really can be a wonder if you modify your expectations of them. My son takes the lowest possible dosage, with plenty of off-set time to “run in circles” as is his nature. It helps tremendously with ability to focus on the things he loves to do and that make him proud; like legos, reading, writing, and basic self-sufficency. With these set in place, we’ve made remarkable headway in other catagories like self esteem, living with others respectfully, etc., etc.

Common sense dictates a good diet and we’ve been eliminating procesed foods as much as possible, but not too, too restictively. (they are still allowed to have real tomato-based ketchup and other such childhood delights). Modification is key, as is doing away with the concept of any truly good meal as “fast food.” And, well, that’s just good for everybody in our house.

In any case, I don’t mean to preach to the choir, but I have noticed that this is a particularly charged forum group and didn’t want to leave anything open for mis-interuptation. I hope this maybe helps alittle. :)

I think specific discussions of things that haven’t worked are usefull. I do believe that you can find anything on the internet and there are some sites that are extreme on both sides of the medication issue.

1. You are drugging you kids
2. If you don’t medicate you will become the victim of scams and snake oil.

I think specific discussions of experiences are useful. Characterizing some things many of us have found extremely valuable to our childrens’ lives as snake oil or scams is as bad as saying those of you that have chosen to medicate have drugged your kids.

There are two sides so lets be respectful to all.

I usually do not get into the mix regarding meds. Personally, it is too personal. I do want to chime in on the issue that meds do NOT cure ADHD,that along with MEDS other things MUST be done. One of which is as Linda Put it, Extreme Parenting. Techniques that worked would be very nice Steve. Most techniques work and then do not work. New techniques need to replace the old,and on and on it goes. Mostly ADHD IS NORMAL,creativing an enviroment that is accepting of the traits is key,I absolutlely agree with that! Laughing a lot helps too.

that was not my intention at all. When we started this journey with ADHD, I was armed only with the knowledge of my husband’s experince growing up under the label “hyperkinetic” back in the day. He had terrible time with multiple meds. and was completely mislead through the school system as a child. His mother didn’t really have any “alternative” choices and was basically dictated to regarding the placement of her own child. It was very frustrating for their whole family and we certainly didn’t want repeat such an unhappy history.

So, when we finally came face-to-face with the fact that “the apple hadn’t fallen far from the tree,” we were sure to avoid all meds. like the plague. But after running the gamut with a variety of things (DHA, GABA, omega-3 fatty acid, numerous mixtures of supplements, food eliminations, behavior modification, etc.), with no real success and expanding family size (we’re a 6 member family now), I started researching both the good and the bad in regards to current medications, and still do to this day. I immediately dismissed trying anything that suggested monitoring for long-term bodily damage (i.e. the potential liver damage from clonidine, etc.) and became very familiar with most commonly used substances. Maintaining a general skeptcism of any promises of finding a “wonder drug” or “quick fix”, we began trails of meds at low dosages and were able eliminate certain even more. I refuse to give my son Dexadrine or any combo-drug that has dex. as a component (i.e. Adderall, etc.) And I have my lines at being a guinea pig for the newest of meds. and am always striving for the day that my son will be mature enough to handle these decisions himself. But until then, we do what we feel enchances positives in our son’s life, within the boundries of our home.

I guess I just wanted to offer this information to those who feel lost on both outer extreames of this issue. For those that are fighting against medication out of fear of being chastised or pure skepticism and for those who feel lost in quagmire medications that no longer seems rational. I still read and research all that I can and am occassionally intrigued by something new to me (most recently Sensory Intergration) and do with the info what I can, as do most people on this site. I think that some the most informed people on this subject are the ones that gravitate to these forums as a means to find others to “bounce” learned knowledge off of one another and to revel in other’s personal experiences. And having said that, I believe it is our duty to be respectful of one another always, whether or not we are in agreement with one another because it is generally a common pursuit for the betterment of our children and we, each, only have one shot at doing it right. :wink: Susan

Thanks, Linda, for your response. I sometimes feel a little miffed that folks say things like, “Well, it’s good your kids didn’t need meds.” Seems to imply that somehow my kids weren’t quite as challenging, and if I had a REALLY TOUGH case, I might have had to resort to medicaiton. Well, I HAD a very tough case, and I busted my butt in every way possible to make things work. Medication just wasn’t an option for me and my family, but I can tell you, we went through hell sometimes. If I hadn’t had the convictions I do, it would have been easy to put my oldest on meds, and no one would have criticized me for it. There were times I was totally at my wits end. But he taught me a lot about maintaining that “fine balance” you describe, between keeping expectations reasonable and maintaining extremely tight discipline on the expectations we had. It is good to know that you understand how difficult that challenge is. I appreciate your dedication to making it work for you and your family!

To Beth in FL: Linda’s general description fits our strategy really well. There are two aspects that I would start with. First, differentiate between essential issues and things that are just annoying. Decide CONCRETELY which things are going to be your first emphasis. If it is safety, then all your initial interventions focus on safety. The other stuff (rudeness, messiness, etc.) is left to work on later. Then you develop a specific program of what is allowed and what is not, with zero grey area. I always included my kids in this process, having them define the areas we are working on and also asking them to come up with what they considered reasonable consequences for violations (which Ginny and I also had to agree to, of course). Negotiations could go on for some time, but the goal was to get a written document, which I would have them SIGN, so that they couldn’t come back later and say they didn’t agree to it. You work on the first area for a while, and when you see significant improvements, you ease off of that one and start to focus on a new area. It solved SOOO many arguments to just go back to the agreements. We actually had weekly family meetings for some time, and developed a “policy manual” composed of long-term agreements of this type.

Then comes the hard part. You MUST follow through with whatever the consequences are EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Decide ahead of time if any warnings are given, and how many. With knives, I’d probably go with no warnings, but you can give one if you feel it would help. The important part is not to change the rules one iota, regardless of what kind of tantrum he pulls. You KNOW from his school behavior that he is perfectly capable of behaving if he wants to. He just knows he can get to you if he keeps at it. Actually, my kids were the same. The teachers and parents of friends commented on how polite they were, eager to please, etc. They saved all the good stuff for me!!

Also critical to success are two other elements - the ability to earn positive attention for doing the right thing, and a plan of action for when he protests the consequences, which he will inevitably do, even if he agreed to them on paper. For positive attention, I used sticker charts, with the positive behavior described for getting a sticker, rather than avoidance of a negative, hence: “Keeps knives safely in the drawer” rather than “Doesn’t play with knives”. Then you define a menu of rewards he can earn for x number of stickers. Fun time with the grownups is always a powerful reinforcer, especially if HE gets to decide what you do together. Another good reinforcer is the ability to buy his way out of a certain kind of consequence. They just LOVE that one! Gives them power without costing you anything.

When he protests, the important issue is to remain calm, and focus on what YOU control. He will want to get you angry at him and start up a power struggle to prove you can’t push him around. You simply refuse. You say, “You control your own decisions, and I can’t decide for you whether you will do your consequences. However, I control my decisions, and if you want me to do X with you, you will have to keep your agreement.” Refer him calmly to the document if he argues. If he can’t read, have someone else read it to him, or you read it. But you have to have something you control that you will only do if he completes his consequence. Then you let him think about it. Setting timers for compliance rather than expecting instant compliance also works wonders. “I will set the timer. If you haven’t completed your timeout within 5 minutes, I will cancel the library trip”. But regardless of what you do, you will have to cancel a few trips and listen to the tantrums before he knows you mean what you say. It helps to have someone else (spouse, neighbor, another parent of an oppositional kid) to trade off with if the wheedling and tantrums start to get under your skin.

I also tried to build in ways for Patrick to reduce his consequence for good behavior. I found that working around the house, cleaning or doing compost or that sort of thing, worked really well. Sometimes you have to be patient, but if you remind him that he can cut his timeout time in half by doing a job, and let him decide, eventually, being practical as most of these kids are, he’ll get the message. However, he will test you to the hilts first.

I have to admit, we did resort in Patrick’s case to locking him in his room on occasion while he calmed down (around age 5). This was disturbing to me at first, until my housemate pointed out to me that, after a minute or two of hurling toys at the door, he would calm down, and after five minutes, he’d be singing. Young kids are always locked into somewhere or other, until they are old enough to use keys, so it wasn’t anything as bad as I had imagined, and he had lots of toys in there and seemed to handle it fine. But this was also early in our learning process before we had come up with a lot of other ideas, so I might not use it anymore.

You may not want to resort to that level of confinement, but you must have a plan for non-compliance with the consequence. The most important issue is this: he must know that you will calmly enforce the limits that you have discussed and agreed upon without the slightest variation and without being unduly upset with him. He gets to make his choices, you get to make yours. If he wants your cooperation (making dinner, driving him places, reading or playing with him), then he will have to cooperate with you. No ifs ands or buts.

That’s the basic plan. We developed hundreds of variations, but most of them came down to letting go of the small stuff, creating agreements before incidents broke out, and following through with a vengeance using things we had total control over. I have posted other places about using “energy points”, and also how to use “reverse psychology”, which works GREAT with oppositional kids, even if they know you are going to use it. I can give more details if you can’t find them elsewhere. I used to bet him that he’d act out, or thank him for refusing to take timeout, because I had a stack of dishes needing to be washed, and I was happy to be able to get some help with them. I would predict that he wouldn’t follow the consequences, and then act really disappointed when he did as expected. Both of my oppositional sons really loved this approach - they thought they were really putting one over on me! But it won’t work until you establish that you are serious about getting followthrough on consequences.

That’s a mini-primer for you - as I say, I could write a book. Hey, Linda, maybe you and I could get together on a manual: “We survived ADHD without meds!” Might be a big seller! Could sell tee-shirts to go along with it, mugs, bumper stickers, the whole nine yards. Whadja think?

Hope that is helpful to you, Beth. Feel free to post again, or you can e-mail me back at [email protected] if you want to share details that you don’t want to post on the board. I am always happy to help anyone come up with creative ways to approach these kids. I wish I had been given some tips when Patrick was younger - it’s hard to have to invent it all yourself! But at least you know it can be done. So hang in there, and let me know what else might be helpful!

–— Steve

I did basicly the same things that you have done. My approach never involved warnings though. My son is king of debate and it was to difficult to listen to his debate tactics while the clock ticked. In the beginning the no warning approach is tough but he realized after a while that I was serious about the consequences and would just follow the very clear and specific limits.

I would stay calm even when the internal me was screaming. I could win an academy award for the calm together person I pretended to be while he was raging.

There was a book called “Back Talk” that is now difficult to find. It was my manual. That book saved my family. I honestly even used the consequences on my dear hubby. He would at times not go a long with this system so I would say, “If you don’t like the way I handle things go ahead, get him dinner, I am going out.” I only had to do this once. My dear hubby was dumb struck and soon realized it was much better my way. Still, I can’t control what he does but only my response to what he does. Understanding this basic fact seems essential for all relationships.

I think writing a book on this subject would be great. We would definitely need a chapter on sense of humor as socks said. I do laugh at the fact that my dear boy handcuffed his infant brother to his baby swing when he was 5. It wasn’t all that funny at the time, but hey, extreme parenting is an adventure.

And I also have gotten that response that he must not have been that bad. Truth be told, I just can’t see him as that bad. I am just plain blinded by love for that kid, although I know with different parents the story would have a very different ending.

Hi, Linda!

Never heard of that book! Sounds like a winner. And I had to laugh hearing about you applying the techniques to your hubby! I have to admit doing the same with my wife.

I was not implying that my children were “bad”. But I wanted to communicate that the challenges involved in taking this path were quite monumental. It’s not that some kids are “not really that tough” and don’t need medication, whereas the “really tough situations” require it. We just plain weren’t willing to go there, no matter how tough it got. Again, we had options that other people didn’t, and I got some professional training that others don’t necessarily have the benefit of. But all the same, there were days that would have tried Mother Theresa’s patience. Your description of the Academy Award sessions was very real to me. It was VERY dramatic at times! And sometimes I had to have Ginny or another adult intervene to keep my violent fantasies under control. But we were dedicated to finding a non-violent, medication-free path, and we did. We are proud of that fact, ‘cause we really worked at it! I am glad you are proud of your accomplishments, too. It is great to see our youngsters developing into healthy young men, and knowing that our efforts made such a big difference. I am happy I have had this experience and love all of my children - they are the light of my life! Every challenge was well worth it, just to see what wonderful people they are becoming. I have no doubt that all three of my boys will make a difference in this world - they are all wonderfully talented individuals. But they didn’t turn out that way by accident - we earned our stripes!

Thanks again - I love your posts!

–- Steve

OK. My middle child was a very difficult preschooler (like pounding holes in his walls at age 3) so I very familiar with the consistent bit. My problem is this: how do you deal with the fact that every five minutes almost without fail my 6 year old does something he shouldn’t. My middle child was hitting us but it was a couple times a week. It is the constancy of my youngest behavior that drives me mad.

I hear you suggesting that we should focus on a subset of things at a time. What do you do about the rest? What do you do when you are focusing on X and he now decides that going to a store means hiding in the clothes in the department store (a trick he did when we were out today that he had never done before) or kick his brother just because (mostly because he is bored)? Do you ignore all these other behaviors? And how do you handle all the other family members he bothers if you ignore it?

And please tell me, where do you get your patience? Mine really is in short supply. I find that his behavior just grates on me and eventually I just lose it. Today, after I yelled at him, he asked if he could go back to camp!!! And yes, I know yelling doesn’t help but I can’t seem to help it. AFter a point, I just can’t take him any more—he just is sooooo constant.

Beth

It sounds like you have quite the challenging youngster! Yes, you DO have to ignore a lot of things at the beginning. From what you say, it sounds like safety is the number one concern. I would definitely start with a meeting with him about how to make things work better. I discussed things with Patrick in a very adult fashion, and told him I KNEW FOR CERTAIN that he could choose to control these behaviors, and that I was expecting him to help come up with a plan. If he said he didn’t care, then I told him I would devise a plan without him and he probably wouldn’t like it very much, so it would be better for him to have some sayso as to what his consequences would be. Get that signed contract first thing!

I totally can relate to the blase attitude - it used to drive me crazy! It seemed like he didn’t care whether I got angry or not - in fact, it was kind of fun for him to watch me get upset. There was a while I was worried he would be developing into a sociopathic criminal! He seemed to lack empathy for other people’s experience. Empathy is still not his strong point, but he has learned to be respectful (at 19!)

Your son sounds like he needs constant engagement, which you may not be able to provide. It also sounds like he uses his brother to get to you, which was also true for Patrick - he knew I couldn’t ignore him being mean to Sean. But the object seems to be to get you to blow up at him. So he wants to get you engaged and if anger is the way to do it, he is willing to.

This is all very difficult, so I don’t want to sound like I am telling you “this is the solution”, because you might have to try a whole bunch of things before something works. But one idea is to see if you can split yourself off from him part of the day if he is not behaving himself, in addition to providing extra one-on-one time if he is. Part of the philosophy we developed is that being with other people is a PRIVELEGE which you have to earn by being decent. The natural consequence of obnoxious behavior is isolation. So separation from you and from his brother would be very appropriate and powerful consequences that you can use. He may end up spending a whole lot of time in his room, but that’s OK. He doesn’t have to SUFFER as a result of the consequence, as long as he experiences some change of circumstances that he doesn’t really want to experience. We had to use a lot of room time isolation, including locking him in his room at first, before he started to be more workable. It was quite a task - took months, actually.

Where did we find the patience? I didn’t have any other options that I could see. Sometimes I cried, sometimes I just ignored him for a while. Sometimes I yelled. Still do, on occasion. I guess I just had the belief that I am a smart person and I can figure this thing out. I went back to what I know about human beings, and settled on two points to work from: first, everyone wants to maximize their personal control of the environment, and second, everyone wants others to respect their rights. Where these two clash, is where the conflicts are. So I tried to find things to do that respected his dignity and right to be himself, but didn’t allow him to deny others the same rights. And then I just brainstormed with Ginny and other people from there. And I read voraciously. I tried things, and if they didn’t work, I tried something else. All of the interventions that worked focused on controling things I control, and allowing him to control his life within very clearly defined and pretty inflexible boundaries. Having him help design both the boundaries and consequences for violations gave him enough control without feeling that he was “the boss”.

I won’t kid you - when he was 4, he ran the house. It was hell to get him back into line. We just refused to give up, no matter what. And we used whatever help we could. At one point, I remember getting a neighbor to take him for a while when he was out of line, so he couldn’t get any reinforcement from me. He behaved quite well at the neighbors. His misbehavior was definitely directed at getting attention and control from Ginny and me. We had to trade off a lot, and work some very professional interventions, some of which I learned when working for the day treatment center for emotionally disturbed children! It was a long-haul, relentless, 24-hour-a-day job, and it was exhausting. We needed to spell each other, and we needed breaks. And we needed to let a lot of “small stuff” (like cleaning) go for a while. Our house was a pigsty for years.

So it was a nightmare for a while, and only my faith and lack of any alternatives kept me going sometimes. I am hoping to pass on a little of that faith to you. This will tax you beyond what you think you can stand. But you can do it, with some help. A little professional training might go a long way, too. Maybe you can find someone to consult with who can give some specific perspectives on what is happening in your house. It’s all about perspective, which is hard to get when you are the main person intervening. Somehow, you have to get to the point where you are feeling more in control and not reacting. The reactions are the reward.

I could go on all day, but it probably won’t help you much. It’s going to be an ongoing challenge, and there are no simple solutions. Persistence, creativity, and faith will be your best tools. And get that boy on board with the idea that he is responsible for how other people feel! He knows it on some level, but it’s inconvenient for him, so he pretends it isn’t true. Maybe someone outside of you can have this chat with him. I had a friend of mine who had kids he liked to play with read him the riot act. He hated it, but it sunk in a lot better coming from her. Teamwork helps, too.

Anyway, I hope that is in some way giving you what you are needing. I know it can be incredibly frustrating! Hang in there, ask for help, and get him on board with designing the plan, so he can’t pretend it’s all your idea. And view your time and attention as valuable, not to be gained by manipulation or abuse. He may spend the next 6 months in his room, but you will come out the other end one day. Keep the faith!

–- Steve

Thanks for the tips and just an empathetic ear. Yes, I think he wants to get me engaged. Some of it is his personality. At six weeks, he was only happy in his swing if he could watch his brother and sister play. He was the only infant I knew who loved Chucky Cheese instead of being overstimulated by it!!

Some of it is having an older LD brother who has taken a lot of my time. He hasn’t gotten the amount of attention that most youngest children get. My middle child has not gotten the traditional three child squeeze—but honestly his older sister and the child we are discussing have.

My sister has worked with emotionally disturbed kids and she was the one who got us through the middle one’s wall punching. She was the one who told me some kids require more than average parenting. Sigh. How did I get two? By six though, my middle child was quite well behaved (before we knew he was LD or I would have never have been able to work with him.) Honestly though, I find the younger one harder and it is the constancy. He has been a difficult child since he was 10 months old and started tearing the house apart.

My sister was the one who pointed out to me that he is impulsive and that he is not always willful about things. She also pointed out that he was a pusher and that if I told him to do x, he would do almost x and that I needed to punish him anyway.

The real problem is that punishment seems to have very little effect on my son. He cries and tells me that he can’t do anything right but it doesn’t seem to change his behavior at all. For a long while, I was very consistent and it didn’t seem to affect him at all. I am worn out now, I think, and just go from crisis to crisis.

I will try the contract approach with him….and try to find some patience. I am not good at ignoring things—I am much more likely to screach. I also think I need to reward him for good behavior…maybe every time we go on errands. This is a real problem for him. Today he threw a water bottle at his brother while I was caught in traffic. Why? It was there. We had gone to swim team and as soon as we got there, the lightening detector went off so we had to leave. He put his water bottle on the seat next to him. It is just almost impossible to even consider the kinds of things that he will do.

Beth

Can he lose out on the privelege of going on errands if he acts up? Or can he earn a PRIVATE trip with you if he behaves? We literally had to find someone to leave him with, not someone he hated, but someone that was not very fun, to reinforce the idea that outings with mom and dad are a privelege. Maybe you can leave him with your professionally-trained sister for some very quiet, boring, self-entertaining activity. It is important that your sister or whoever be REALLY BUSY and let him know she does not have time to entertain him. And that there be no TV or video games! He can help them dig weeds or some other hard labor thing, but nothing entertaining.

Also, I really had to challenge the idea that his emotional reaction to the consequence had the slightest relationship to the consequence’s effectiveness. He was such an actor, he could act really angry or hurt when he wasn’t, or act like he was cool as a cucumber when something really bothered him. He wasn’t going to help me out by letting me know how he really hated something. The only way I could tell was whether the consequence broght on better compliance or not.

One other thing - the best consequence I ever applied was work. Not as a punishment per se (though I used it for that), but as a way for him to regain his right to be with other people, working off his debt. I would say that he had made us have to work too hard, so he had to do some work for us to pay for the extra work we had to do for him. I allowed him to earn back part of a consequence with jobs. For example, if he was grounded for two days, he could work it down to one day by doing 1/2 hour worth of cleaning. He liked the increased control, it gave him an incentive for not escalating further, and he ALWAYS was in a better mood and more helpful after doing work. In fact, I learned to give him work preemptively, before he did anything wrong. Some days we just started out with jobs. Of course, I didn’t say “Let’s start out with some jobs so you behave yourself,” but more like: “Can you grab me a bowl - my hands are wet. Thanks!”, or “Let’s get the ladder out and change that light bulb - do you think you can climb up that high safely?” I used to challenge him A LOT, bet he couldn’t do things, to get him to do them. Or even tell him I didn’t think he was capable, “that’s a grown up job, you’re not strong enough”, that sort of thing. Betting seemed to be a really good one. Didn’t have to be a lot of money, either. Try betting him a quarter that he can’t go on a store outing without getting into trouble with his brother. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you are SURE he is not capable of it, and he might as well pay you the quarter right now. I don’t know why, but it really got Patrick going - he loved for me to be wrong about him. Works great for Kevin, too, but we started earlier, so he’s a lot easier.

It really does seem unfair to get two that are that tough. I do think some of it is inherited, sadly. I like to think mine got it from their mom, since I am pretty mellow. But I do have my rebellious side, so who knows? The point is, it isn’t really a fair deal, but we don’t get to decide. I know a family that has THREE kids who are ALL oppositional and hyper. I don’t know how they make it through the day. At least I got one mellow child out of the three! But the patience will come when you start to see some results. You can’t make them change, so you have to adopt a totally different strategy, almost a different personality. He knows all your moves - it is time to surprise him with a new set that doesn’t fit the script!

It may not surprise you to know that I am a good chess player. Those skills come in very handy, ‘cause you have to think at least three moves ahead of these little geniuses. And try not to take his emotional outbursts too seriously - remember we had to haul Patrick up the stairs, kicking, screaming, and biting, and lock him in his room. He is now a responsible adult, none the worse for our intervention. I am sure we would have done him a great disservice to back off just because of his dramatic presentation. He needed us to do the right thing despite his protests. It was hard, but it worked. You will get there, too! Just think “chess game”. His moves are very calculated. Do him one better - you can out-think him if you don’t give in to the emotion.

Let us know how things develop!

Steve,

I never had the patience for chess—which probably says something about me!!! Still, I sat down and really thought about the situation—when does he behave, when does he not. My other sister has a three year old daughter whom my son adores. He is really good with her and my sister thinks he is great. Too bad both my sisters are in Chicago and we’re in FL!! But my point is that Alex responds well to positive feedback and all the punishment in the world doesn’t seem to make much difference. It isn’t that he acts like it doesn’t matter, as you suggest, but rather that he really doesn’t behave very differently. I am not sure if I haven’t picked the right punishments or severe enough but I decided to try a different tactic. I decided to make a chart with four behaviors on it and what is supposed to do, and not do.

1. behave in car
2. stay with me in parking lot
3. stay with me in stores
4. keep hands and feet to self

I told him I’d give him a star for each one if he did it all day. I picked four things because he was feeling overwhelmed by the second (we did it together). We had several appts for my older daughter (eye, ortho) yesterday afternoon. His job (and mine) was made easier by the fact his brother stayed with a friend. I was hoping for some success and got it. He was quite good—did tear up little pieces of papers all over car and when I told him he’d have to clean them up when he got home, he told me that wasn’t on the list!!!! But he did do it.

He still jumped out of his chair at dinner a trillion times and let the dog out of his crate who then stole a pork chop from the table (our dog can climb on the table from a chair). I told him to put the dog back but basically let it go. Still, all in all it was a much better day.

My son too does well with work and we keep him busy that way. My husband will pay him $1 an hour to work in the yard with him. He works very hard and stays out of trouble. He also does housework—cleans bathrooms, and vacumns, and will even clean his brother’s room !! He has many good qualities—it is the misdirection of his energy and his low tolerance for nothing to do that is the problem.

I used your idea of paying “debt” off with work the other day when he had misbehaved in car (again) and my punishment (sending him to bed after dinner) clashed with my husband’s ideas for the evening (he wanted him to plant his garden before plants died). So I made Alex clean up all the legos (which were not just his) and vacumn the bathroom. He did his garden and then helped pull weeds. I’m not sure he should have still got off completely but that was more of an issue between my husband and I.

Staying home from errands would probably thrill him. He gets bored doing errands, which is why he misbehaves. I told him instead that if he doesn’t shape up in the car that I won’t be able to pick him up at school in fall. For the first time, I am planning to pick the kids up three days a week and have them in after school program two days a week. I work and a babysitter had picked them up before. He was thrilled when he found out earlier this summer that I was going to do it. So I told him he’d have to be in after care every day, if he couldn’t behave in the car. He said “even if I do one thing wrong, I have to go to after care?” I told him I wanted to see a sincere effort and a major change in behavior. But I have a major thing to hang over him and car behavior is my prime trigger. It is a safety issue in the heavy south Florida traffic too.

I wish we had my sister near by. He is the one of my kids who would benefit most from extended family. But noone is in Florida.

Last night my husband and I both sat down with him and went over his chart. I asked him what he thought for each one. And he said a star. I told him that when he had five days of a stars he could pick something to do like a extra game or puzzle with mommy or daddy. He said “with both!”

So maybe we’re on a better track now. He is going to go back to day camp next week. He has friends there and there are few in the neighborhood. This has been part of the problem this week. I was off work and thought we’d have a nice week but it was a disaster—partly because he had noone to play with and I had all these pent up errands to get done. I begged a mother of a friend of his to let her son play with him this weekend (she thought it was his turn to come to her house and she had company coming and needed to clean house—I told her I’d watch him so she could clean in peace). Boredom is one of his issues—little tolerance for it!!

You gave me lots of ideas, and just as importantly, the feeling of not being alone with a difficult child. I saved all your messages to a Word file so I can reread them at will. Thanks so much.

Beth

I know how it can be - I am happy if some of my suggestions are helpful. It sounds like you are really thinking and trying some new strategies - I think that’s what matters. As soon as we lose our ability to think, and start reacting, we are dead meat. Actually, it sounds like his response to earning stickers was really good. Don’t forget to try the “reverse psychology” stuff when you see a good opportunity - it really works wonders if you can do it with humor!

He actually sounds like a very charming and intelligent young man. I agree that low boredom tolerance is the biggest issue. Actually, I think this is the MOST common characteristic of the ADHD-diagnosed children I have seen - the need to be constantly stimulated and entertained. I think that’s why stimulants seem to calm them down - they get some artificial stimulation so they don’t have to seek it as much from the environment. But sometimes the stimulation of seeing parents upset is so interesting that it is worth whatever punishment happens.

Keep focusing on his strengths and noticing the many times he is behaving himself - it already sounds like you are on a new path. Good luck!

–— Steve

Now I never thought about the fact that he got a sort of thrill out of seeing me upset!! It makes sense though because he del. annoys his siblings to get a rise out of them. I guess he has had me in his “game” too and I didn’t even realize it.

Reverse psychology will work well on him, I think. He loves to rise to a challenge. Some mornings before school we have a race to see who can get dressed first!!

Beth

Steve,

I really enjoy your posts too.
You said that you know you are a smart person and that helped you get through this. I always tell myself to respond with my intellect rather than my emotions. This is very difficult and I certainly am not always successful but there is something gratifying about thinking your way out of a tough situation with your kids rather than reacting emotionally. Who said parenting is not intellectually stimulating.

Beth,

I agree that the sibling area is the toughest of all. Our kids are smart enough to know that is our weak spot. It is difficult to manuever through all the sibling problems. One thing, don’t be afraid to punish all the kids like ending an activity when one acts out. Whether you realize it or not they act as a group even though at times there seems like just one trouble maker. You also have to be careful that one child doesn’t take on the role of the bad kid. I really like Steve’s advice about giving the child the option to make the plan. My son really responds well when given some control. I think some of his acting out is just related to the fact that he needs a great deal of control over his environment to feel in control of himself.

I spend a lot of time convincing my son that he is a good kid. His little brother falls so easily into this role that it takes work to help my older one see that he is good too. He is very responsible and hard working so I focus on that by giving him things to do that he can feel good about.

Also give yourself a break. Get a massage, a babysitter take care of you first. We all yell, we all react emotionally at times.

Great thread.

Steve please stay here. You are very wise.

Thank you, Linda! :oops: I appreciate your support. You also have great posts!

I do want to stress that I have been VERY emotional at times during this. Sometimes I think we made a big mistake by NOT being clear about our emotions to Patrick when he is young. We were much more expressive with Kevin when we were angry or hurt, and he has developed a lot more empathy. Much as they might want us to believe they are crushed by our heartless deeds, most of these kids are pretty thick-skinned and need a real jolt to understand how they are affecting others. So sometimes it is this balancing act between EXPRESSING emotion rather emphatically, without making DECISIONS based on that emotion. Rather a tricky operation, but it has taught me some incredibly valuable skills.

Spending time on the positives is really at the heart of changing these patterns. These kids are AMAZING in so many ways! They have such gifts that it hurts when we find outselves not enjoying their company. We really have worked on noticing the good stuff and reminding them of it, while being very frank about how certain behavior makes us not want to be with them very much. Since they usually love DOING THINGS with us, the idea of isolation has a lot of power, whereas “punishment” is an opportunity to engage us. That’s why working together on projects is so helpful - they get to spend positive time and do something productive. I think that’s why school about kills these kids - they aren’t really producing anything that seems valuable, so they are bored to tears! Maybe we can develop an elementary school based on farming or building construction or something - they’d love it!

Anyway, thanks for the kind words! It is nice to feel appreciated.

–- Steve

Linda,

My youngest has fallen into the role of the annoying child in our family. It is not good, I know. This is the central challenge of parenting this child—directing his energy to something positive.

Steve,

Wow, I think your comment about being emotionally open really hit the mark. I was up a couple nights ago really upset about my youngest. After a bath in the middle of the night didn’t do it, I put a heating pad on my back. Alex asked me what the heating pad was. I told him and he asked why I had it on. I told him my back hurt. He asked why. I told him because I was upset about how you have been behaving. He looked quite taken by that. Perhaps that early morning conversation helped set the stage for our later one about behavior.

Beth

When I talk about my response to my child I mean that I don’t use my emotions as a guide but rather my intellect. I grew up with 2 parents without a single parenting skill between them. They would just yell and we just never knew where we stood. Some days you could do anything and no one would care, other days you would come home and your room would be literally turned upside down because mom decided that you needed to get organized.

Discussions about how you feel when they act a certain way are very helpful. Discussions like this helped me to realize that he never really meant to hurt me. He just really could not control himself and needed my help. He was acting out unchecked and needed to learn how to check his behaviour.

We were just at Hershey Park with friends. He was fixated on a game and I told him it was time to go. He yelled, “Just a minute.” in a rude tone. Then he checked himself and said, “I am sorry mom.” My friend was amazed. He usually reacts with empathy but sometimes he needs to think about things first.

When I do yell. I usually back track and say, “It isn’t you it is me, I am really stressed about this this and this. It would really help me if you could just help me out right now so I can get through this.” He will usually fall into line to try to help me out. Then later I tell him about how his sitting quietly in the car made a big difference in helping me deal with my stress.

Letting our kids know that we are human isn’t such a bad thing.

“I think that’s why school about kills these kids - they aren’t really producing anything that seems valuable, so they are bored to tears! Maybe we can develop an elementary school based on farming or building construction or something - they’d love it!” Steve

Hi ya Steve, You’ve summed a large reason for why we chose to homeschool. I continually amazed about how many subjects can be better emphasized by using basic farming concepts. ( And I just love th Old Farmers Almanac :)) I think it’s the hands-on approach that suits them so well, because they can see the forces of nature actively working. Anyway, I can go on for hours on this subject, so I’ll stop here. Have a good one. :) Susan

Hey, Linda! We are talking the same language! I can’t believe how much you say that fits totally with how I think about parenting. And of course, since you seem to agree with me so often, that proves that you must be very, very smart! :wink:

For Luna - we homeschooled for four years with Patrick - we never would have made it otherwise! I wish I had had a farm or other big outdoor place - these kids do so much better when they can roam! But learning was never a problem unless we tried to force it down the wrong path - he just needed flexibilty. Other than writing (which is still a challenge), he did fine in every area. Went back to regular school in 6th grade and did great. They couldn’t belive he was hyperactive. Homeschooling made all the difference!

For Beth, I think you have found out something important. They need to know how you are feeling, without the reacting part. Like Linda said, they are not trying to make you suffer. They don’t really understand what is happening to us until we calmly explain it. And we need to think of the limit setting as helping them, not as punishment. You are teaching him the most important things to learn, much more valuable than math or reading (important as those are): you are teaching him that other people matter, and that he has to learn how to work with them. I always told Patrick that math was hard for some people, but easy for him (which was very true!) But getting along with people was easier for many people, but hard for him. I said we all have challenges, and this one is yours. You have to work hard on getting along with other people. And I always gave him examples of when he did well and when he didn’t, including how people are probably feeling as a result of his actions. It took a long time, but I think in the end that this was the most important part of what we did - to teach him to respect others’ feelings. Lots of work but well worth it. You are obviously pretty quick in catching on - I am sure you are on the path to a new relationship. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!

–— Steve

Steve,

You sound like an awesome parent. You have wonderful tips.

Thanks! It is always good to hear some positive feedback. We worked hard and made a lot of mistakes in coming to some of these approaches. I hope I can spare some folks a little of the trouble we went through!

We tried high quality fish oil for about six months - My daughter hated it, you could taste it no matter what you mixed it with. The pills were huge and too large for her to swallow. I did not notice any changers in attention or behavior after 6 months of strictly following the program. I was trying it too -I never noticed any changes.

Dear Happy Days, I agree you should only use the supplements if you know what you are doing or you have someone who trained in this field. In my oppinion, the best source of vitamins is in foods. Your body can absorb them and naturally. Since our food is vitamin deficient these days, the best source of vitamins is in a whole food supplement. We have all been taking blue green algae and we have seen the most dramatic results with this. My 10 year old who use to get into trouble every day at school for getting out of his seat and wandering around the room has not gotten in trouble for that not once since we started taking it. (Last April) He says he feels so much better and able to concentrate during class. He is better at his talking out but is still having difficulties with that. I can only say that I am happy with his improvements and it is actually good for him. My whole family is taking it now.

Happy Days,

I recommend Daniel Amen’s books: [u]Healing ADD[/u] and [u]Change Your Brain: Change Your Life[/u].

He’s the only MD I’ve found who gives credence to alternative approaches. He profiles six different types of ADD and gives first nutritional and exercise advice, next recommended supplements, and lastly pharmaceutical interventions.

Also, he covers biofeedback and neurotherapy as a treatment methodology. From experience, it can tell you that this approach can be expensive (partially or NOT covered by insurance) and time-consuming (1 hr 3 x’s week), and sometimes doesn’t always exhibit prolonged results. It can also be hard to find a practitioner.

As a woman who eats organic food and birthed my son at home, I understand your desire to explore natural remedies before going the medication route … that’s what I did, and I’m glad we did it.

Mary Beth

Hi, i have a 4yr old she hasnt been diagnosed as of yet with LD or ADD but she does have a behaviour and attention problem. We have have been giving her a fish oils, its called Eye Q (Equazen) and so far so good. I hope this works for you
Good luck and best wishes
Miss Wilson(UK)

:D
Hello all,
Im new to this board and thought i would just post the effectiveness that we have had with our six year old adhd son. We started out like many others and medicated our son. He was put on adderall but with terrible side effects . Insomnia, lack of appetite, severe mood swings. Was socially withdrawn in school no friends, just head down all the time. Well i knew i had to do something different . This wasnt my little boy anymore. We decided to go with Herbalife, I was skeptical at first with so many natural remedies out there. But after talking to one of the distributors for over 2 hours one night. She recommended the nrg tablets and told me to go the the Herbalife website and read the testimonies. Now i know what your thinking they always list the good stories. LOL… But she also gave me numbers to parents that were going through the same thing as I was.
Well my son now is on the NRG tablets one tablet before school one tablet when he gets home. It has made him more confident at school, more interactive in the classroom. And more social with his peers. He isnt withdrawn like before. And the severe mood swings have gotten better. He did have a problem with his sleep also at night and we also have him on a product from Herbalife as well called sleep now. And the good thing about all this is its all natural. Im not saying that this will work for everyone just my personal story. And by no means am i trying to sell the product . I just wanted to tell my exp with it. And by the way just as taking the natural stuff the diet is most important also. Cut red dyes, sugars, etc etc. If anyone has had any good results trying these products please write i would love to hear from you.

[quote=”Nicks Mom”]:D
. And by no means am i trying to sell the product .[/quote]

Oh, PUHleeze! If people believe this one, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn that’s a real deal …

to Beth: I yelled too much at my daughter. I come from a family of yellers and it was hard to change, plus I had some vicious health problems (untreated celiac disease, body poisoning itself) that made me exhausted and stresed and not the best parent I wanted to be. Nonetheless she survived and even came out pretty well.

I wish I didn’t yell so much. I also wish I didn’t have celiac and thyroid problems and a weight problem and money problems and a lot of other things too. So, you’re imperfect and often respond imperfectly. Tough. You are raising an imperfect child in an imperfect world and he has to learn that other people have limits too. You do your best, and don’t make yourself feel guilty about your slip-ups, just do what you can to correct them.

to Steve: your attitude and approach sound really positive. Hope things are going well for you.

Here are two snappy answers to stupid questions which others may find helpful:
People used to come up to me out of the blue and tell me I was raising my child wrong.
I had a very very advanced verbal child who also inherited the family’s stubbornness (pig-headed is far too mild a description) but she was also underweight and *looked* like a china doll. So I was talking to this delicate-looking “baby” in a manner more commonly used with a difficult six-year-old. Well, mentally, that’s what she was.
When people told me I shouldn’t talk to her that way, I finally started saying “Fine, you know how to raise her so well, would you like to rent her for forty-eight hours?” You know, they left the scene very quickly after that.
When people told me she was such a nice kid and I shouldn’t criticize her, I started to say “Perhaps she is such a nice kid *because* I correct her?”

To the guest that posted a reply( no Name for me to reply back to) and the effectiveness that we are having with our adhd son. Im not selling anyone this product just thought i would post the effectiveness of what we are trying, and maybe get some info with what other parents are using. And as far as im concerned with just trying it for two weeks it may not be effective as what he was on , but its not doing any worse either. Its just that its natural!!!!! There are so many schemes out there and im sure some of us fall for them. I being one of them. But if i can make sure that my son is given every opportunity that is available to him without medicating him to be some zombie, and give me my 6 year old active, great personality, just all around great kid, the chance to use something that isnt going to make him the way he was when he was on the adderall then me as his mother im going to do what i think is best for him. If the natural things dont work. Then its back to the drawing board. So the next time that you read a post and interpret the way you think it is. Read again!!!!! Untill you understand the the only thing that i said was the effectiveness of the natural products that we are having and wouldnt suggest in any shape or form that other parents use anything that they didnt feel comfortable with.
Just thought i would post my sarcastic reply back to you.
And to Marybeth and Kimmy im glad to read the positive replies that you posted with the natural stuff. Im glad im not alone anymore I felt as if i was loosing my mind. Things are getting better but i do have to beleive that my son and I and husband have a long road ahead of us.
Im really glad i have found this board its been so helpful and provided much information that his own doctor hasnt told us. Thats why i have gone the route of the natural products and just praying to god that it may work.
Thanks again for letting me vent. Its helps sooo much…. :lol:

All natural is not the same thing as safe. Anyone considering this product should know that it contains guarana, which is a stimulant containing caffeine (among other things) and carries a long list of side effects, many of which are identical to those associated with FDA approved stimulants used to treat ADHD. Check it out:

http://www.herbalife.com/hl/templates/templatepreportal/herbalife/products/product.jsp?curr_category=c_type_NRG_tablets&parent_category=c_cat_energy&curr_category_leftnav=c_cat_energy

http://www.pharmacyhealth.net/d/guarana-4294.htm
GUARANA Drug Information

Drug Name: GUARANA

GUARANA DESCRIPTION:
GUARANA (Paullinia cupana) - ORAL

GUARANA SIDE EFFECTS:
Nausea, stomach upset, trouble sleeping, restlessness, nervousness, tremor, increased urination,
headache or lightheadedness may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your
doctor promptly. Tell your doctor immediately if you have any of these serious side effects: fast or
irregular heartbeat, black stools, mental/mood changes. If you notice other effects not listed
above, contact your doctor or pharmacist.

HOW TO USE GUARANA:
THIS PRODUCT: Take this product by mouth as directed. Follow all directions on the product
package. If you are uncertain about any of the information, consult your doctor or pharmacist. If
your condition persists or worsens, or if you think you may have a serious medical problem, seek
immediate medical attention.

GUARANA USES:
Guarana has been used to prevent drowsiness and as an aid to weight loss. It is a
caffeine-containing product. The FDA has not reviewed this product for safety or effectiveness.
Consult your doctor or pharmacist for more details.

GUARANA PRECAUTIONS:
If you have any of the following health problems, consult your doctor before using this product:
heart disease, diabetes, anxiety disorders, depression, a history of ulcers. Liquid preparations of
this product may contain sugar and/or alcohol. Caution is advised if you have diabetes, alcohol
dependence or liver disease. Ask your doctor or pharmacist about the safe use of this product.
Guarana is not recommended for use during pregnancy. Consult your doctor before using this
product. Because of the potential risk to the infant, breast-feeding while using this product is not
recommended. Consult your doctor before breast-feeding.

GUARANA DRUG INTERACTIONS:
Tell your doctor of any medication you may use, especially of: cimetidine, disulfiram, ciprofloxacin,
enoxacin, birth control pills, theophylline, water pills (diuretics such as furosemide), other
stimulants (adrenaline-like drugs such as phenylpropanolamine). Check the labels on all your
medicines (e.g., cough-and-cold products, diet aids) because they may contain ingredients that
could increase your heart rate or blood pressure. Ask your pharmacist about the safe use of those
products. Avoid drinking large amounts of beverages containing caffeine (coffee, tea, colas) or
eating large amounts of chocolate, since guarana contains caffeine. Ask your doctor or pharmacist
about the safe use of caffeine-containing products. Cigarette smoking can affect GUARANA. Tell
your doctor if you smoke or if you have recently stopped smoking.

GUARANA OVERDOSE:
If overdose is suspected, contact your local poison control center or emergency room immediately.
Symptoms of overdose may include agitation, irritability, painful urination, tremors, irregular
heartbeat, stomach cramps, vomiting, and seizures.

GUARANA NOTES:
Keep all regular medical and laboratory appointments.

MISSED GUARANA DOSE:
If you miss a dose, use it as soon as you remember. If it is near the time of the next dose, skip
the missed dose and resume your usual dosing schedule. Do not double the dose to catch up.

GUARANA STORAGE:
Refer to storage information printed on the package. If you have any questions about storage, ask
your pharmacist.

If this has caffeine in it then why do the Herbalife people say that it promots alertness, more focus, ?? I may be asking a stupid question but im trying to learn all i can before we go to the appointment i made with the neuroligist to have him tested. He has never been disruptive in class and a very loving little boy. Its just his attention span is right out the window most times. We also take him to counsling once a week so that she can work with him and his attention span and when he was on the adderall i didnt see any progress with what she was doing. Just handing her 100.00 every month. Sometimes i just dont think these doctors know what they are doing ? And lately with what he has been on it seems to be working some what. Like i said before He is eating like a horse again. Doing good on school work. I have some trouble with him with homework but i think that with todays kids soo much homework is on them. And my son is only in 1st grade!!!!! :roll: Maybe im just hopeful that i will find something other then the meds they are pescribing today to help my son get the help he needs.

[quote=”Nicks Mom”]If this has caffeine in it then why do the Herbalife people say that it promots alertness, more focus, ??.[/quote]

Read the links. Guarana is the only ingredient in the grf pill and guarana contains caffeine. The product may well promote alertness, as does caffeine. In fact, some people with ADHD respond very well to caffeine, though for most it is not enough. Caffeine is a stimulant. Perhaps you could try a cup of coffee or tea or mountain dew for your son and get fewer side effects and the same results on improved focus. You’d sure save a bunch of money.

He isnt taking whatever that is. These tablets are NRG tablets ?? Would that be the same thing made through Herbalife?
After i re read your post im sorry sometimes i must look like a total idiot i understand what your saying with the caffiene. And your probably right i would save alot of money but i have this big idea that this product isnt going to solve the problem. I just wish i could find something that wouldnt give him such horrible side effects. I know that medications have side effects but to watch a six year old develop them its just hard to stand by and watch the meds do that to him. Sorry if i seem so stupid with the posts im just so confused as what to do. And still trying to find a miricle….!!!!!!!!!!! Guess that will not happen huh? :(

[quote=”Nicks Mom”]He isnt taking whatever that is. These tablets are NRG tablets ?? Would that be the same thing made through Herbalife?
After i re read your post im sorry sometimes i must look like a total idiot i understand what your saying with the caffiene. And your probably right i would save alot of money but i have this big idea that this product isnt going to solve the problem. I just wish i could find something that wouldnt give him such horrible side effects. I know that medications have side effects but to watch a six year old develop them its just hard to stand by and watch the meds do that to him. Sorry if i seem so stupid with the posts im just so confused as what to do. And still trying to find a miricle….!!!!!!!!!!! Guess that will not happen huh? :([/quote]

I provided a link to the herbalife website and the product you listed. It really does contain caffeine and that may be what is helping your child. You are right though. There won’t be miracles, just lots of things that help. No medication, natural or standard, will be a cure, just a temporary help. You’ve got to combine medication with behavioral interventions, organizational tutoring, counseling to really make a difference.